Log In

Home
    - Create Journal
    - Update
    - Download

LiveJournal
    - News
    - Paid Accounts
    - Contributors

Customize
    - Customize Journal
    - Create Style
    - Edit Style

Find Users
    - Random!
    - By Region
    - By Interest
    - Search

Edit ...
    - Personal Info &
      Settings
    - Your Friends
    - Old Entries
    - Your Pictures
    - Your Password

Developer Area

Need Help?
    - Lost Password?
    - Freq. Asked
      Questions
    - Support Area



NM ([info]narcissam) wrote in [info]bad_penny,
@ 2006-06-22 13:23:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
So you thought the MsScribe story was over?
[info]angua9 has just thrown a grenade.

In response to [info]heidi8's recent statements, [info]angua9 has made public the text of the email she sent [info]heidi8 two years ago, the same email that [info]heidi8 said this about:
"When I got Angua's email, I spoke about it with praetorianguard, ari_o, owlman and others who had been involved and/or paying attention in spring/summer 2003, and they told me that there wasn't anything in Angua's email that hadn't been examined in the nine or so months before."
[info]angua9 replies,
"I truly don't want to pile on heidi8 when she is down, demanding instant apologies, explanations, and justification of all her actions and inactions over the past three years. That isn't polite or reasonable. On the other hand, what she is saying on her LJ is infuriating me. Here is what I just posted to her:

What? Are you saying that these people read my email? They saw all my arguments, my evidence, the contradictions I pointed out in Dionne's story? Are you saying that, when Ari_o was making fun of me in public on her LJ, saying that R/Hr shipping had fried my brain, SHE HAD READ MY EMAIL?

Wow.

Obviously, I don't think "don't respond, do nothing, and mock the sender in public" was an appropriate or prudent response to the email I sent you. But others must judge that for themselves. I will post the text of that email on my LJ, so that they can."
The email.

It's dynamite. Expect the Potter fandom to blow itself up even more.

ETA: It should go without saying. Trolling people is bad. Don't do that, guys. If you're not involved, just sit back and watch.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]purplepopple
2006-06-23 04:32 am UTC (link)
I don't buy it as true because my recollections of what went down from the FF.Net end definetely do not match with hers. Multiple threats of law suits, my own lovely set of stalkers using the situation with CC as their claim while they knew it was going on and did nothing, the if I even mentioned it and Heidi would come out of the wood work... and I'd have to do Om! NOT HER! Quick [so and so on-line now]! Do I have to/Should I read this? No? Good! *delete*

The quotes have been preserved.

Cassandra Claire claimed to have copied it into a notebook. She then claimed to have found it later and then, thinking it was hers, decided to use. Heidi's argument, as I understand it from reading [info]white_serpent's replies back to Heidi (Because have I mentioned I stopped reading her?) is that Heidi has five arguments which are:

(1) The television quotations don't count. There aren't that many, and Cassie always said they were there, at least in general terms.

(2) The Dean passage isn't "plagiarism," per se, because Cassie always had a disclaimer of one form or another-- so the author might not have been credited in the proper way, but she was always credited. (It might have been different if there had been no credit at all, but, since there is one, however poor, it's not plagiarism.)

(3) It's only 500ish words of a much longer story which Cassie wrote herself (minus a few quotations; see point 1).

(4) Cassie wasn't seeking to profit from it, so no court would probably conclude it was copyright infringement anyway-- because no money was made.

(5) Fanfiction itself is copyright infringement, so this is no different and fanfiction.net staff were a bunch of hypocrites (in more than one way) for deleting her account regardless of the TOS.

Here

Some one deleted the Cassie and Rhysenn mailing list and large chunks of PoU related to the plagairism thing have been Om! Deleted! It must have been an accident. My understanding is that CC now disclaims, footnotes, etc. but still misses a good number of her actual citations and waits for users to send them to her before adding them. That's what I get from other sources. I have never read her stuff because not a Buffy fan, not really a Dean fan, seen only a few episodes of Black Adder, never saw Red Dwarf... and well, why bother? If I want good fic of an epic length, TenderWare, August, Bodecia, Gina Dart (w00t! Published author now.), Gun Brooke (w00t! Published author now.), LZClotho, Anik LaChev (who really needs to update) and a whole slew of other J/7 authors keep me well occupied.

I probably wouldn't care as much except I'm interested in fan fiction history (which I wank fantastic, troll and otherwise spam regarding... but I'm not perfect) and fan fiction author policies. My problem was when doing this, really annoying to come across false story again and again and again AND to, when fixing those factual errors, be threatened... or even when occassionally putting them in a general broader context, having Heidi pop up. And threaten. Joy! Do I get a gold star because she's threaten to sue me over three times? It has very little to do with CC at this point, but mostly with the history and with Heidi. And okay... when I heard that CC, CC who gets openly praised by others for her great writerness and people quoting other people's work when praising her and crediting those lines to CC, was getting a book when Pamela Dean could not sell her book. That tweaked. But I generally shut up about that. And neither was mentioned in my LJ for over three years. Remember self, this is not about you.

But yeah, CC is a plagiarist. Heidi continues to spin. I don't know what CC says these days about it because it would have to pop in my fan space like on my FList. (And I tend to defriend those who have Heidi or CC on their FList). If she has a different story, news to me and worth updating on the fwgreatesthits page.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]tunxeh
2006-06-23 05:08 am UTC (link)
I have never read her stuff because not a Buffy fan, not really a Dean fan

I've never read CC's stuff because not my ship, but I am a huge Dean fan and these plagiarism stories really make me see red. OTOH I'd be sad if bringing it all up again now creates another wank big enough to reach Dean's attention, because she seems to be writing another book and I want her to finish it and not get distracted by this shit.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]purplepopple
2006-06-23 12:57 pm UTC (link)
Does she have a publisher for that book?

I remember that back around the time that the CC thing first happened, she posted a comment about the situation on Usenet that reference it in an oblique fashion.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]tunxeh
2006-06-23 02:47 pm UTC (link)
Her Secret Country books seem to have been reissued by Puffin in November 2003 (I didn't even know they sold books in the US market!) and are still in print. I have no idea whether she has a publisher lined up for the one she's working on (a sequel to The Dubious Hills also involving some of the Secret Country characters) but I'm not overly concerned.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Pamela Dean
[info]purplepopple
2006-06-23 03:15 pm UTC (link)
The last I heard in August 2005, she had a book to sell but her publisher, citing low sales, would not publish it. Hence, even working on a new book would not mean she found a publisher and my concern. I'd really like her to publish. In my brief interactions with her via e-mail a number of years ago, she was nothing but nice.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Pamela Dean
(Anonymous)
2006-06-27 06:04 am UTC (link)
she's still working on the new book which is slowly coming along. the dubious hills is still on schedule to be reissued next year; she last talked about that in ... march? lemme see ... march 27 (http://pameladean.livejournal.com/89569.html).

also, tam lin is being reissued this august -- last mentioned here (http://pameladean.livejournal.com/91413.html).

i've known her for many years (via usenet), and she is the nicest person -- truly nice, not passive-aggressive nice, or nice to get something from you. i mean, if one wanted to plagiarize anyone, she'd be somebody to do it to, since she's unlikely to rip you another orifice even if you deserve it. CC is in my shitpile because of that, and i'm not even part of HP fandom). BNF? Busy Nicking Fiction, yeah. i write stuff in my notebook too. i write down the source right underneath; it's automatic. who in the world does not learn that in high school and college? ok, maybe she was cutting class those days. couldn't remember the author? googling is hard, says barbie? and trying to weasel out of responsibility for a fuck-up? not impressive. say "sorry, i screwed up, i'll make restitution, and i'll promise to not let it happen again." then we can all move on. as it is, this sort of thing gives fan fiction's already bad name an extra kick in the shins.

something that lawyer-fangirl heidi apparently hasn't learned yet either. and msscribe picked as her goal in life to be close to these people? wow, really shooting for the nadir of mediocrity there.

pleonastic (http://pleonastic.livejournal.com).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Pamela Dean
[info]purplepopple
2006-06-27 12:50 pm UTC (link)
The whole nice thing I'd agree with because she seemed to ber very nice when she had the thundering hoardes of FF.Net related people various people contacting her asking questions back in June/July of 2001. She's on LiveJournal now. I think, in trolling Usenet, I only ever saw one comment on that situation and it was very oblique. I've got to give major props to her for that.

Heidi obviously hasn't learned. All you need to do is look at FWGreatestHits and Wikipedia to see that. I'm almost half surprised that other parties, interested or not, didn't jump on that.

The lack of responsibility that annoys me but *shrugs* not to the degree that it annoys other. I think it is likely that the situation is likely to get more toxic as Cassandra Claire's publishing date nears. The latest hate meme had people who, well, it seemed like Heidi and Cassandra Claire had killed their kittens and they were out for blood as a result. There was talk about Google bombing, wondering who was going to contact her publisher and how they could not know, etc. That could make the whole effect the Marion Zimmer Bradley incident had on fan fiction look like small potatos. (Okay. That could be me and paranoia.)

Blah.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]rhiannonmr
2006-06-23 06:14 am UTC (link)
Gina Dart has published? I remember her back in the day when she was writing her J/7 stuff and waiting for the updates. That's so cool.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Gina Dart
[info]purplepopple
2006-06-23 01:00 pm UTC (link)
The Just Between stuff was really, really good when it first came out. When I went back to reread it about a year after I'd first discovered it, the characterization evolution of Seven drove me a bit nuts.

But yeah, Gina Dart is published.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Gina Dart
[info]rhiannonmr
2006-06-24 02:35 am UTC (link)
Glad to see that. Her 'Just Between' series was the first femmeslash I ever read. I had been reading all about the boysex but I DID enjoy hers back in da day. Used to wait for the updates and all that. Speaking of which I checked out your fanfiction history site last night and had a good walk down memory lane. Thanks much for that!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Gina Dart
[info]purplepopple
2006-06-24 02:49 am UTC (link)
Gina Dart helped along the road to becoming yum yum femslasher yum. :) I haven't tried her pro-fic stuff yet.

Have you read Campus by Anik LaChev? Good stuff but I'd still like an update on it.

No problem for site. If you ever get bored, feel free to update it. ;-) I'm totally lacking information on a great many things. Fandom is large. Hard to cover everything.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Anonymous)
2006-06-23 09:54 am UTC (link)
Besides the extended passage from Pamela Dean, CC also ganked bits from Roger Zelazny and Tanith Lee: did she ever credit them? Or did she only, and grudgingly, credit where people called her on it?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]purplepopple
2006-06-23 01:04 pm UTC (link)
No clue. I heard about the Tanith Lee bits but not the Zelazny thing (which really would push my buttons considering what happened to him with people stealing his work. *gr*). Your best bet would be to put an update on the fwgreatesthits entry.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


soula
2006-06-23 05:25 pm UTC (link)
Stalking and threats of lawsuits? I shouldn't be surprised, but... how terrible.

I almost can't believe someone deleted the relevant material from the mailing list archives--it's so incredibly pathetic. But I am glad to know I was remembering the original defense correctly.

Most of my interest in the matter is as someone who was on a couple of mailing lists, and as someone who was completely shocked by the response to CC being kicked off fanfiction.net. I didn't think there was any question of her having violated the ToS, and while it sucked for her, the amount of flaming ff.n and the totally irrational indignation that ff.n's staff was actually doing their job, oh noes, was simply astonishing--and then there were Heidi's lengthy quasi-legal arguments exonerating CC, which gave the hordes of fangirls on the list even more encouragement to be little shits to the Admin team at ff.n. Because a lawyer was telling them they were on the side of righteousness.

I came out of that thing with a much more negative impression of Heidi (and the HP fandom) than of CC.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

CC Stalking and Heidi
[info]purplepopple
2006-06-23 05:47 pm UTC (link)
The stalking wasn't Heidi but involved people using the whole CC thing as a justification for that. So whenever I hear that Heidi doesn't call off the dogs Heidi Patrol, it doesn't come as any surprise. And even with that, I assisted with the Chryslin thing because Dude! Stalking sucks. (See letter in part one that Chryslin sent me explaining her part.) And let's not forget about how Heidi was so GRACIOUS too me, reassuring me that she would make sure that the community would not blame me for the whole Chryslin thing.

The only people who could delete posts from Yahoo! mailing lists are the list owners if I recall correctly. :/ It was done sometime recently from what I can gather. I'd think between September 2005 and April 2006. The posts were there before hand as [info]white_serpent was citing them. Heidi claimed not to be able to see them. And later, they were gone. Thankfully, people have saved aprts of that and the mailing list ranting page still contains some posts that Heidi can't delete. They also clear up the misconception that the impression that Cassandra Claire had permission. CC said she in contact with the author and fan girls interpretted that as had permission. No one seems to bother to have corrected THAT misconception.

Heidi's legal stuff, coupled with her posting from her work e-mail address, was the bad reason why someone I sent them an e-mail asking about her behavior and if her legal positions were in line with the firm's beliefs regarding copyright law. *slaps hand* Bad me. I don't know what happened but a few months later, she was definetely not with them and the one time I stumbled into a conversation with her, that was mentioned. But yeah, her actions didn't help the situation and helped make things more vitrolic. She's been the bigger problem. What CC has done... don't know.

I think that the sort of anti-archivist issue made it unfriendly for many archivist and helped foster some attitudes that were not kind. :/ Freedom of speech is a myth on fan fiction archives and archivists have a right to control their content, even if it is totally arbirtrary.

I also think that the sort of attitude that it is okay to plagiarize other sources is a generally bad one for fan fiction fans because it alienates many of the creators. A lot of professionals unsurprisingly don't like fan fiction and fostering the idea that plagiarism is par for course in the community is not a good one.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: CC Stalking and Heidi
(Anonymous)
2006-06-25 10:01 pm UTC (link)
Re: deleting at Yahoogroups --

the moderators/owners can delete any post.

the original poster can delete their own posts.

pdt-bear @ LJ

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: CC Stalking and Heidi
[info]purplepopple
2006-06-25 10:05 pm UTC (link)
Whatever whitewashing was done (And I remember the you can delete your own stuff), the plagarisim thing is likely to go off again. *head desks* Honestly... You'd think some one would have learned.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Read comments) -

 
   
Privacy Policy - COPPA
Legal Disclaimer - Site Map