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Avocado (![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} white_serpent) wrote in ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif){kind=small} bad_penny,@ 2006-08-05 11:04:00 |
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The Cassandra Claire Plagiarism Debacle -- Part V (cont'd) through part VIII
The Cassandra Claire Plagiarism Debacle
Contents: Part V, continued -- Ranting_page, Email: Cassandra Claire; Part VI: What changed?; Part VII: Aftermath -- the other reason I shut up in 2001; Part VIII: The excuses, a summary
Ranting_page
A new list was formed to continue discussing the topic on June 24, 2001: Ranting_page. This list still exists in its original form and has open membership, so I will sometimes use smaller excerpts of these posts.
The main combatants-- including Flourish, Cassandra Claire, Caroline, Michela Ecks, and Colin-- immediately joined. I didn't visit it until June 27, however, so I had several days worth of posts to read through.
Michela Ecks made the second post (excerpted):
The first post from Cassandra Claire (ETA: Heidi's last name removed; missed it the first time through):
From "HyperGal":
From Alicia/Sue:
From Flourish (this is excerpted):
From Cassandra Claire (excerpted):
From Flourish:
And Caroline said:
Cassandra Claire, again:
And:
I particularly enjoy the strawman argument in the last line.
Caroline:
Cassandra Claire again:
Caroline (excerpted):
And Michela Ecks:
At this point, the discussion on Ranting_page died.
Email: Cassandra Claire
Back at the beginning of this drama (as the reader probably does not recall), I left Cassandra Claire a signed review on Draco Sinister on FanFiction.Net. The review was left either June 15, 2001 just before midnight, or June 16, 2001 just after midnight. The review said, "Pamela Dean wrote the Secret Country Trilogy."
At this time, authors could configure their FanFiction.Net accounts so that all reviews were sent to them via email. Reviews with a reviewer email available could be replied to directly.
And I did, in fact, receive an emailed reply from Cassandra Claire the week of June 26, 2001.
She said that it seemed silly to say after all of this drama, but she did know that Pamela Dean wrote the books. When she wrote the chapter, she was working off her notes from high school and did not know the author's name-- she had, however, fixed the citation. Unfortunately, "someone" had uploaded an "old version" of the chapter, which is why the posted version was incorrect. She also said she had thought it was two books, not three. (I paraphrased this note in a summary I wrote of the incident in 2001, and I am relying on that summary here.)
I replied to this email. I addressed only the final portion. I said that there were three books: The Secret Country, The Hidden Land, and The Whim of the Dragon. I said they were difficult to find. I commented that I had read somewhere that The Secret Country and The Hidden Land were originally intended to be one book, but had been split into two. I suggested that perhaps that was what she was thinking of. (Again, paraphrased based on my 2001 summary.)
I do not recall if I received another reply.
Thereafter, I saw numerous people saying that the original disclaimer was correct because The Secret Country and The Hidden Land were one book when Cassandra Claire read them. I think it is a fairly safe assumption on my part that this particular excuse has its origin in that email exchange.
It has been a particularly enduring excuse.
ignatius references this on Fandom Wank's Greatest Hits:
as does Heidi in a response to Michela Ecks, also on Fandom Wank's Greatest Hits:
Perhaps I should have mentioned that the split took place before publication?
Part VI: What changed?
Not long after the incident, Cassandra Claire posted two "cookies" for Draco Sinister, chapter 15. On ParadigmOfUncertainty (9582, 6/25/2001), the note said, "This scene is taken from the middle of DS15, when everyone's getting ready for the big birthday party. I wasn't going to post a cookie, but I thought a cheerer-up was in order. THIS COOKIE CONTAINS A QUOTE FROM BLACKADDER. Let Edmund Blackadder come after me with his big snake if it bothers him. Oh, and shippiness is contained herein." On cassie_and_rhysenn (1145, 6/27/2001), the note at the top said, "Just a cookie to cheer up the list a bit. This is from DS15, when everyone's getting ready for the big birthday party. This cookie contains a line from Buffy. She can stake me personally if it bothers her."
After the incident, Cassandra Claire initially cited the plagiarized text in chapter 9 of Draco Sinister, and, although both she and Heidi claimed she had permission to use it, I had never seen a permission statement in the chapter as of August 2005. In approximately May or June of 2005, the text from The Hidden Land was removed.
Some (but not all) of the plagiarized text in the Nightmare Grass scene of chapter 11 was removed in 2001. Currently, the footnotes state: "Nightmare Grass comes from The Secret Country by Pamela Dean. So does the idea of shapechangers who you have to kill in every shape they can transform into." and "Nightmare Grass is from Pamela Dean's book: The Hidden Land, available from Firebird books. Used with permission." (The permission statement was added within the past year; I find it funny that the book title is incorrect.)
I will address some other issues in Draco Sinister at the end of this document.
Part VII: Aftermath -- the other reason I shut up in 2001
I lost my temper (again) after seeing the "one book" excuse touted everywhere and decided to do further research into plagiarism in the Draco Trilogy.
On July 2, 2001, I collapsed and broke my right arm approximately half an inch below my wrist. (I generally simplify by saying I broke my right wrist; in essence, it's true.) There was no apparent physical cause for the collapse (as six hours in the emergency room enduring extensive tests taught me), and I blame myself for getting too caught up in fandom matters.
(Those who really want to see me whine about it can read post 51 on Ranting_page-- obviously, I really wanted to whine, because I could only use my left hand to type.)
I spent two weeks in a cast (to pass time, I taught myself to write with my left hand). I then spent five weeks in a wrist brace and in physical therapy to recover mobility in my right wrist.
During my recovery, one of the first things I did was delete my email exchange with Cassandra Claire. I considered deleting my email exchange with Pamela Dean as well, but Pamela Dean is one of my favorite authors, and I couldn't bring myself to delete her email.
I also terminated communication with Michela Ecks. I made a couple of posts on her Writers U board in 2002; other than that, we didn't really resume contact until 2005.
Part VIII: The excuses, a summary
Because these get lost in the long series of posts on the subject, I would like to reiterate (in sequence) the "excuses" posted by Cassandra Claire over several days in 2001. All emphasis is mine.
June 23, 2001:
The Pamela Dean passage was deliberately paraphrased (PoU 9432):
As previously noted, this was combined with uploading a new version of the chapter with altered disclaimers in the Files section. The original disclaimer on FanFiction.Net and on the mailing lists said: "Credit for the inspiration for this conception of the wizarding afterlife goes to a book called The Secret Country, alas, I no longer recall who wrote it." To me, this is not any sort of clear statement that the scene was intentionally paraphrased.
June 25, 2001:
Borrowing is standard; she thought this use was acceptable (C&R 1115):
I'd like to address several points in this post. First, Cassandra Claire cites discussion that occurred on the ParadigmOfUncertainty list after the release of chapter 9 of Draco Sinister. So, I went to look at those posts. Chapter 8 was posted onlist in two parts on December 3, 2000, while Chapter 9 was posted onlist in two parts on December 17, 2000.
The following are excerpts from posts regarding chapter 9:
5362: Ebony: "I can't believe I get to review this first! I've spent the past half
hour in heaven... this is Cassie's *best* writing since the penultimate chapter of DD."
5373: Voicelady: "Oh, Cassie, that was just wonderful! This story just keeps getting better with each chapter!
"And BTW, The Secret Country is by Pamela Dean."
5374: Stacy: "Cassie, you've done it again, and in only two weeks. How do you DO that????? I know, I know, you're a professional writer and all that, but really, the speed with which you turn these chapters out always blows me away."
5376: Rosmerta: "Cassie, I must apologize! I made that joking suggestion several days ago, asking you to have Draco experience an NDE and meet James and Lily - and I never dreamed you'd really DO it! Though your near-death experience wasn't the traditional light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel, of course. But what you did worked so well, and I loved "meeting" Harry's parents like that."
5377: Rosmerta: "Oh and by the way....
"What happened to that "bargaining" thing? It seems Draco was interrupted by CPR before this could take place??"
5378: Ruth, in reply to Rosmerta: "I think that _was_ the Bargaining."
5380: Heidi: "Here's what I loved:
The scene in the underworld with the Potters - just the right note of emotion under the surface (do spirits have an "under the surface"?) without getting maudlin at all"
5381: Cassandra Claire, to Rosmerta: 'No, the CPR -- Ron trying to bring him back to life -- that WAS the Bargaining. "Someone is trying to bring you back," or so said Godric (or whoever...can't recall.)'
5420: Carole: "First the general comment:
"How the heck do you do this??? 50 pages in 2 weeks! With all your other email correspondence and the other lists you are active on! Plus a job!
"Your descriptive vocabulary is just not within my realm ...its way above (this is a creative way to say...jeez you are good). It would never occur to me to describe all that you describe or even the way you describe it. There are a fair number of writer's whose long descriptions get tedious...but yours have not yet gotten to that point."
5447: Peg Kerr: "OT: Hey, Pamela is a friend of mine. We've been in a Shakespeare reading group together, and she's the one who urged me to write _The Wild Swans_ with a double story structure--I mention her in the back in the author's acknowledgements. She also wrote _Tam Lin_, one of my favorite books that I'm always pushing on everyone. Good taste, Cassie!"
5453: Cassandra Claire: 'As for the Voice, okay, it was NOT God. Only rave gets to write God into fics. Call it the Guardian of the River. It was based partly on the scene in Greek mythology where Hercules goes down into Hell to bring back Cerberus, and Charon, who ferries souls across the Styx river, at first won't let him cross, telling him: "This water is not for you, and my boat does not carry living men."
'PS to Peg: Pamela Dean is wonderful. I have all her books, except the Secret Country which alas is now out of print.'
5455: Voicelady: "I know it's not quite the same, but you can download it from the web. Sorry,
can't remember the name of the site offhand. That's where I read it."
5519: Liz: "The voice is rather confusing because it seems to be the demon, and it seems to be the immediate problem. But Cassie never goes into it, or develops the voice. It leaves an unpleasant, unfinished, lopsided feeling in the reader. Otherwise, I found the river to be a commonplace in the netherworld, no matter which culture or author writes it."
5525: Cassandra Claire: 'The voice in the afterlife wasn't anyone we know. (I think I answered this question before, but heck.) It's the Guardian of the River -- something like Charon in Greek mythology. I took some of what it says from the myth when Hercules (who is alive) visits the underworld, and Charon, the Guardian of the River, tells him "This water is not for you, and my boat can only carry living men." It only cares about the outcome of the bargain because it just doesn't care about Draco one way or the other. If he's dead, he can cross the river. If he's alive, he gets sent back. The Guardian doesn't give a toss either way, it's just protecting the river.'
5526: Cassandra Claire: "As usual, I just never know what people are going to latch onto in my
chapters. As of yet, nobody's asked me about what I thought was the Really Big Mystery (well, aside from the secondary mystery of who's dead) and everyone wants to know who the voice is. *grins* It never occured to me that I needed to explain the voice any more than I needed to explain why the afterworld is a barren rocky plain, or that anyone would think the voice was the demon, since the demons have no established connection with the world of the spirits. The voice made it clear that Draco was NOT in Hell, which is the demons' realm. I also thought it was clear, since the voice says it doesn't care about the outcome of the bargaining -- i.e. whether Draco lives or dies -- that it wasn't the voice of anyone who knew him. Voices speaking out of nowhere in the afterlife are none too unusual in fiction and mythology, and sometimes things that seem mysterious are just that -- mysteries. I have no plans to further develop the voice, and I doubt it will make another appearance unless somebody else just about croaks."
5665: Cassandra Claire (in response to an inquiry about when the next chapter would come out): "*looks optimistic* In a week, give or take a few days. I hope. Up until two days ago I hadn't written word one, so we'll see how it goes." (dated 12/31/2000; the next chapter was released 1/6/2001, and was approximately 17,900 words. According to the author's note, the chapter had been beta read by Heidi, who had offered a suggestion to alter the first sentence.)
The references to Pamela Dean's friend in Cassandra Claire's later excuse are accurate, as is the mention that Pamela Dean's books could be downloaded online. What I find interesting, however, is Cassandra Claire's responses about "The bargaining" and "The Voice" (both appearing in the material from The Hidden Land.) In The Hidden Land, the bargaining is literal-- people are bargaining with the Lords of the Dead to bring Ted back to life. Cassandra Claire explains that CPR is "the Bargaining." In regard to "The Voice," she says "I took some of what it says from the myth when Hercules (who is alive) visits the underworld." However, the lines "The Voice" speaks are lifted from The Hidden Land. She also says "The Voice" is "the Guardian of the River"-- a name which it claims in The Hidden Land but does not mention in the incorporated text in Draco Sinister.
In all responses to comments on the scene, she explains that she wrote it based on mythology, not that it was taken (or paraphrased) from Pamela Dean.
Further, Cassandra Claire states she has all of Pamela Dean's books with the exception of The Secret Country, which makes the fact that the disclaimer ever failed to include the author's name quite odd.
Nothing I have seen indicates that Cassandra Claire is not claiming credit for writing the scene.
In the posts I have not shown, there are several references to readers enjoying quotes, and to Pratchett's "eighth son of an eighth son" concept. Some appear to have recognized some of the quotes as originating in Black Adder or Red Dwarf.
Still, I want to make it clear that I have always been provisionally willing to accept a part of this excuse: Cassandra Claire thought incorporating material was acceptable in fanfiction-- and being blacklisted had made her realize it was not.
However, the obvious follow-up to this excuse is for Cassandra Claire to fully annotate her fanfiction and to stop incorporating material from other sources.
June 26, 2001:
She had fixed her disclaimers, but an "old version" was uploaded when she "chaptered" the story on FanFiction.Net.
This is similar to what I received in email. I no longer have the email, so my citations point to comments made by Flourish. Flourish repeated this excuse in an AIM chat with Michela Ecks and also on the Ranting_page list. Cassandra Claire was present for the discussion on the Ranting_page and even replied to Flourish's post. Cassandra Claire did not contradict Flourish's account.
From the chat log:
Aja claimed that Cassandra Claire had given her a similar excuse:
This excuse makes reference to the fact that FanFiction.Net changed the archive to allow fanfiction to be posted with chapters on January 29, 2001. I believe that, by the end of April 2001, authors were required to link all "stories" that were actually separate chapters of a single piece of fanfiction.
To evaluate this excuse, I will assume that Cassandra Claire originally had some problems remembering Pamela Dean's name. However, it was clearly provided to her in a post on ParadigmOfUncertainty on December 17, 2000 by Voicelady (post 5373). Therefore, she had ample opportunity to alter the chapter posted on FanFiction.Net before January 19, 2001. I point out this date in particular, because this is the date thatstellabymoor gives as the date when she downloaded and saved chapter nine of Draco Sinister from FanFiction.Net. The version downloaded and saved by stellabymoor had the same author's note as the one on the chapter at the time Cassandra Claire's account was deleted.
In addition, the cassie_and_rhysenn Yahoo! group was created on March 18, 2001. If there were a version of the chapter with a stronger disclaimer, it seems likely that this version would have been saved on C&R. However, as of June 22, 2001, the files section of C&R contained the same version of chapter 9 as the files section of ParadigmOfUncertainty, and both had disclaimers that matched the version posted on FanFiction.Net in June 2001. As my "Stealth User" posts on ParadigmOfUncertainty and cassie_and_rhysenn note, Cassandra Claire posted chapter 9 with revised disclaimers in the files sections of both lists on June 23, 2001.
I do not believe the chapter with a stronger disclaimer ever existed.
June 27, 2001, or sometime thereafter
She copied it into a notebook and thought it was her own writing.
Snacky comments:
(ETA: See Snacky's comment below for clarification.)
Anatsuno says:
Everyone's heard this excuse, though no one can cite Cassandra Claire saying it. The email I received from Cassandra Claire said she was working off her notes from high school, which seems to me to be in a similar vein.
For this excuse, I can only point to the complete contradiction with earlier explanations claiming that the incorporation of text was deliberate.
Apparently, I'm the only person who received both the notebook story and the "old version posted accidentally story."
Later June, prior to July 2
They were one book when she read them!
I have explained that I believe this excuse originates with the email I sent Cassandra Claire. ETA: I was unable to find a link where Cassandra Claire made this claim, butfarmercuerden has provided a disclaimer where Cassandra Claire says this:
I can also point out a post Cassandra Claire responded to in which it was alluded to. She did not contradict it:
As is visible in earlier parts of this narrative, this excuse is certainly something Heidi has repeated. Because of the email exchange, I assume Heidi heard this directly from Cassandra Claire. It is an excuse I saw making the rounds prior to July 2, and one I have seen repeated many times since.
As previously stated, this cannot be true.
Previous post (Part V, post 1)
Next post (Part IX through Part XI)
Ranting_page
A new list was formed to continue discussing the topic on June 24, 2001: Ranting_page. This list still exists in its original form and has open membership, so I will sometimes use smaller excerpts of these posts.
The main combatants-- including Flourish, Cassandra Claire, Caroline, Michela Ecks, and Colin-- immediately joined. I didn't visit it until June 27, however, so I had several days worth of posts to read through.
Michela Ecks made the second post (excerpted):
I think the folks who run PoU and the folks who C&R are flaming
hypocrits.... really, seriously full of flaming hypcrits.
*whine* *whine* They should have alerted her. They should have told Cassie
that she was being investigated. It's so *sounding nasal* UNFAIR!
Bam, desub Michela and don't even tell me. Gee, thanks for the warning
guys. Hmmmm... looks like fanfiction.net behavior that they claimed to
deplore.
...
And Heidi is annoying. Sorry Heidi, you're a hypocrit too. Wasn't she the
one who came down against napster as theft yet tolerates theft like this
because it's disclaimer? News flash Heidi, darlin, Napster was disclaimed
too. Gee Heidi, weren't you the one arguing AGAINST my fan fiction is
illegal thing saying it was legal and offering to write an essay on it
because Heidi works at a law firm?
Whatever happened to that Heidi? The one who made sense? Did she forget
all that in her blind lust for friendship that that behavior was
unacceptable?
Oh, and Cassie had warning darlings. I knew and I e-mailed her and ASKED
four days before hand if the rumors that she were plagarizing were true.
Sadly, Cassie darling never answered my e-mail.
(RP 2)
The first post from Cassandra Claire (ETA: Heidi's last name removed; missed it the first time through):
--- In Ranting_page@y..., "Colin" <colin@c...> wrote:
> I admit it. I am a hypcrit. And I am fucking stupid? Humh. I wish
> Cassie hadn't plageriazsed. Darn. I like Wal Mart...but when I
steal
> from there they say "No you hyppakrit, you can't steal from here.
Go
> away and don't come back you HIPPPPPAKRITTFULNESSISHNESSITY."
>
> Oh dear, have I made a fool of my fucking stupid self? Darn...you
> know, I guess Wal Mart actually DID warn me...but I never got the
> warning. That's odd? Hmm.?,"
>
*snort.* I suppose you are referring to the hypothetical email
whatsername theoretically sent me telling me I was being blacklisted
that oh-so-surprisingly I never recieved? Yeah I believe she sent me
an email. And everyone else believes she sent me an email. I think
it'd be wiser to stick by the original position that warnings are
unecessary than lie about it. There's nothing wrong with my email
account, and I can bloody well say for certain that I never got an
email. If I had, would I have sat around waiting to be blacklisted?
Fucking hell no. I would have gone to the author and gotten her
permission to use that text, and if she didn't give it to me, I'd
have taken my own fucking fics down.
Colin, you know, you curse a hell of a lot. Where'd you learn that
fucking language? *ducks* And are you rethinking the shoot-on-sight
policy? I thought it was a good one.
Also, since Michaela seems to be going around complaining that Heidi
XXXXX has barred her from lists for disagreeing with her statements,
could she please provide some evidence of this? *I* banned her from
PoU to prevent a flame war and the moderators of HP Fanfiction are
banning her for probably the same reason. What the fuck this has to
do with Heidi is a mystery to me.
By the way, for further discussion of her "expertise" check out
message 2786 in HP_Fanfiction. Was her use of the phrase "my limited
knowledge" modesty or an accurate self-portrait? Y'all decide.
CC (RP 9)
From "HyperGal":
Okay, even though I really love Cassandra Claire's stories, I know that
she was wrong to plagiarize(sp?). However, what I hate is the people
who are saying that she isn't a good writer, just a good plagiarist.
That isn't true at all. There was only one chapter that had a huge
chunk of plagiarized stuff. All of the other chapters were just as
good as that chapter, and she wrote them herself, with the exception of
some quotes. (RP 10)
From Alicia/Sue:
I would like to officially state that I should be kicked off ff.n,
blacklisted, and have my name dragged through the mud due to my
blatant plagiarism of my good real-life friends. Several
particularly funny scenes in my fanfics have come from real-life
situations, and several lines used in my stories *gasp* came straight
from the mouths of people that are not me.
You know, it doesn't matter that I'm not making money off of it...
the fact of the matter is, I PLAGIARIZED. (Oh, and just so everyone
knows-- if you're going to accuse someone of something, spell the
damn word right.) I used something that wasn't mine-- who cares if
I've said several times that my characters are based on real-life
people, and lines come from real-life situations? In accordance with
the ToS (which everyone seems to be blatantly quoting these days, why
should I? Or is that plagiarism?) I should be booted and have the
ignoramuses of the HP fandom hit me upside the virtual head. I
should have rotten, unfounded accusations posted in public forums. I
should receive hate mail, and I should have whiny bitches cry about
my loyal friends to no one who particularly cares. Because I USED
SOMETHING THAT WASN'T MINE.
Ah, I love sarcasm. And on the subject of swearing, Colin: you have
one fucking dirty mouth, you know that? Fuck, fuck, fuckity-fuck-f-f-
fuck. Round and round the fucking mulberry bush, the fucking monkey
chased the fucking weasel. Ass! (RP 12)
From Flourish (this is excerpted):
I am now resigned from fanfiction.net staff. This means that I can
now say anything I want about any member of the staff with a
clear conscience, including Michela.
[...]
Cassie said:
> and I can bloody well say for certain that I never got an
> email. If I had, would I have sat around waiting to be
blacklisted?
> Fucking hell no. I would have gone to the author and gotten her
> permission to use that text, and if she didn't give it to me, I'd
> have taken my own fucking fics down.
...and this proves that Cassie is FAR more honorable than, say,
Michaela, who continues to rant about things. You know what? If
Michaela doesn't think that Cassie deserves some credit for (a)
having a stronger disclaimer on the fic, but messing up when
she was uploading the chapterized version, (b) saying a number
of times that she would have taken her own fics down, or (c)
being willing to go to the author for permission, then I think that
Michaela is just a fucking bitch-ass whiner who can't understand
courtesy and attempts at diplomacy. (RP 14)
From Cassandra Claire (excerpted):
<g> Cheers, Maddy. And just to say, I *did* go to the author for
permission, yesterday. And sent her a copy of the chapter. We've
exchanged some very nice email since.
I'll let you know how it shakes out. Odd that she was so very much
less concerned bout this than say, Michaela, considering that she's
the one with the right to be upset in the first fucking place.
Cass (RP 15)
From Flourish:
> THANK YOU. People who post "goodbye" messages and then
get pissed
> about being booted off are apparently only posting the goodbye
> messages in the desperate hope that someone, somewhere,
will give a
> shit that they're leaving. Well, nobody did. And I'm well within
my
> rights to try to prevent flame wars on the lists I moderate. Fuck,
> I'm well within my rights to desub Michaela for her horrible
spelling.
Mm. Yes. You can desub anybody you *want* - you are a
moderator, it's your list. Oops, I'm being a hypocrite!
Fanfiction.net uses the same argument. Actually, I AGREE with
their argument that "yes, we had the right to delete Cassie's fic,"
but I still think that it was very... unprofessional to do so without a
warning, and considering Michaela's rudeness, I think it would
be justified if you *had* desubbed her without a warning.
> <g> Cheers, Maddy. And just to say, I *did* go to the author for
> permission, yesterday. And sent her a copy of the chapter.
We've
> exchanged some very nice email since.
> I'll let you know how it shakes out. Odd that she was so very
much
> less concerned bout this than say, Michaela, considering that
she's
> the one with the right to be upset in the first fucking place.
LOL, that's good! :) I can't wait to see how this all goes down.
In other news, I should probably tell you all why I'm so pissed at
Michaela, so nobody goes off on me for flaming her for no
reason (not that I think anybody will, but just for the record...)
Michaela AIM'd me at approximately 2:30 PM PST of today, the
26th of June. Unfortunately I did not save our conversation, but I
did quote it to suzielynn & Colin, who can vouch for me. Michaela
threatened my position at fanfiction.net and attempted to "steer"
me towards dissing Heidi. She badmouthed Heidi & Cassie
multiple times, then told me that if Cairnsy or Steven found out
about the posts I had made supporting Cassie, I would likely be
kicked off the staff. Then, she "suggested" that I start a Harry
Potter news group and dissed the idea of a large Harry Potter
fanfiction archive, as well as calling it a conflict of interest with my
staff position on fanfiction.net. When I told her that I didn't find it a
conflict of interest, and that I was attempting to stay friends with
everyone involved in Cassiegate, she left very abruptly. I believe
that she blocked me at this time.
This was a catalyst to my resignation at fanfiction.net, although
not the sole reason. For the record, I've put it down here.
Basically: Michaela, if you try to weasel out of saying that we had
this conversation, your ass is grass. I have witnesses. LOL.
I ask nobody to contact her about this unless she contacts me...
I'd like to spring it on her myself. That conversation is vintage
Michaela, IMHO, so people, tread lightly around her if she AIMs
you.
-Flourish (RP 17; Michela Ecks posted the entirety of this chat log here)
And Caroline said:
> <g> Cheers, Maddy. And just to say, I *did* go to the author for
> permission, yesterday. And sent her a copy of the chapter.
We've
> exchanged some very nice email since.
> I'll let you know how it shakes out. Odd that she was so very
much
> less concerned bout this than say, Michaela, considering that
she's
> the one with the right to be upset in the first fucking place.
>
> Cass
Ahahahahahah!
Wow, let me catch my breath, here. Cassie, you're seriously
going to sit here and claim you now have permission?
Funny, from what I've heard, email has been received from
Pamela Dean herself which would seem to indicate she never
did give you permission and even after you posted the above
self-righteous justification, still hasn't given you permission. She
seems to be saying what several of us are saying, which is that
an author has every right to be protective of *her* words, and to
lift those words without explicit permission (disclaimer aside) is
lazy, dishonest, and morally wrong.
But nobody would ever accuse you of that, now, would they? And
you know, even if you had permission, I'll say as an author that
your writing methods SUCK, if that's how you put together a story.
If you genuinely believe that it's okay to write fiction by lifting
passages from something that someone ELSE worked damn
hard on, without even BOTHERING to ask permission, any
benefit of the doubt I was willing to ascribe to you just went
straight out the window. You're a liar and a thief, Cassie, and I'm
kicking myself for actually believing what you said on C&R about
really not understanding that it was wrong.
Caroline, absolutely disgusted by you and your champion
Defenders (RP 25)
Cassandra Claire, again:
--- In Ranting_page@y..., nottoosane@y... wrote:
> Ahahahahahah!
>
> Wow, let me catch my breath, here. Cassie, you're seriously
> going to sit here and claim you now have permission?
I said I was IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO GET PERMISSION AND THAT WE
HAD EXCHANGED EMAILS. READ MORE CAREFULLY.
>
> Funny, from what I've heard, email has been received from
> Pamela Dean herself which would seem to indicate she never
> did give you permission and even after you posted the above
> self-righteous justification, still hasn't given you permission.
I exchanged email with her this morning in which she asked me how I
would like her to respond to the people who keep emailing her about
this. We agreed that she would respond that I hadn't known I needed
permission, that now I was trying to get it, that she was seeing what
she could do for me. Period. I never said that she had given me any
kind of fucking permission yet.
I'm wondering where this "from what you've heard" business is. I have
exchanged email with Pamela Dean personally. I am taking what I know
about her attitudes from what she has sent me personally. Not from
what somebody else has told me she's said.
>
> But nobody would ever accuse you of that, now, would they? And
> you know, even if you had permission, I'll say as an author that
> your writing methods SUCK, if that's how you put together a story.
> If you genuinely believe that it's okay to write fiction by lifting
> passages from something that someone ELSE worked damn
> hard on, without even BOTHERING to ask permission, any
> benefit of the doubt I was willing to ascribe to you just went
> straight out the window. You're a liar and a thief, Cassie, and I'm
> kicking myself for actually believing what you said on C&R about
> really not understanding that it was wrong.
>
Did I say it was okay to write fiction that way? Did I ever even
fucking say that DS was fiction? It's not fiction, not literature,
it's fanfiction, and it's a pastiche. AND I ALREADY SAID ON THE
FUCKING C AND R LIST THAT I WAS RETHINKING MY OUTLOOK ON FANFICTION
WRITING. THAT I WAS NOT TAKING THIS LIGHTLY. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU
WANT FROM ME? I ALREADY TOLD YOU I FELT TERRIBLE! IS THAT NOT ENOUGH
FOR YOU? DO YOU WANT FUCKING BLOOD OR SOMETHING? AND NOT JUST MINE,
BUT ANYONE WHO HAS A KIND WORD TO SAY ABOUT ME????
And btw,if you've suddenly changed your mind about everything I said
on C and R because you READ WHAT I SAID WRONG then I don't care what
you think.
Cassandra (RP 30)
And:
--- In Ranting_page@y..., Caroline <nottoosane@y...> wrote:
>
> And quite frankly, I take great offense at Cassie's attitude that
just
> because PD is too mature and polite to call her a lying thief to
her face
> (which is my immediate suspicion, but ONLY my opinion), that the
rest of us
> have no right to feel angry and indignant over what has happened.
When the fuck did I say that? I was merely pointing out that Pamela,
who has more of a right to be upset than anyone else, wasn't swearing
at me or cursing me or telling me that she hopes I get seriously
injured or die in the near future, unlike other people I could
mention. I was pointing out that her attitude was mature, kindly, and
gave the benefit of the doubt. I never said ANYWHERE that no one has
the right to feel angry or indignant. Or that everyone has to side
with me. Ask Flourish -- I know her position is that ff.net was right
to ban me and that hasn't changed my friendship with her one whit;
she knows that.
C: Cassie
> needs to get over herself and realize that this now goes beyond her
and her one action; self-respecting authors who do their own work,
people who bother learning the legal and ethical rules of fiction
writing, and supporters of ff.net and their right to run their site
as they damn well please, all have every right and reason to be upset
over this.
And I never said they didn't. Just because I don't like the screaming
and ranting and cursing doesn't mean I don't think people have the
right to be upset. Nor do I have to support the personal attacks on
my friends. Nor do I have to support the smearing of the reputations
of my friends or the attempts to cause them pain and unhappiness, not
just in their fandom lives but in their real lives. Nor do I have to
wave my arms in support of a site that tells Flourish that either she
toes the party line or she gets fired.
>
> Even if PD does end up giving Cassie permission to leave the
passages in the
> story, we still have reasons to be upset. That wouldn't change the
fact that
> she did it in the first place, that she seems to still think the
> consequences of that action were not perfectly just,
What the FUCK gives you that idea? Have I ever asked to be reinstated
to ff.net? Have I EVER protested the banning? Have I not requested on
my lists that people NOT send angry email to ff.net, NOT start
petitions, NOT start flame wars? What the HELL gives you the idea I
don't think the consequences were just?
>
> And NONE of that will change the fact that I have absolutely no
respect for ny author who writes her stories as if it's putting a
puzzle together from pieces that other people WROTE. Fanfic authors
put their story worlds ogether from borrowed characters, setting, and
background information, not rom the exact words other authors have
labored over. THAT defeats the main urpose of writing a story in the
first place.
>
*shrug* Most people in the real world spit in digust on fanfiction
writing, period. Mention itin literary circles and you'll get either
a blank stare or a vomiting noise. "Why don't you do your own
writing?"
And frankly, you don't have to have respect for me. I don't care one
way or another whether you do or don't. But this all-out campaign to
rip to shreds anyone who associates themself with me is beyond creepy
and vicious. I'd choose being a kind person over being a good author,
any day.
Cassandra (RP 31)
I particularly enjoy the strawman argument in the last line.
Caroline:
on 6/27/01 5:01 PM, cassandraclaire@... at cassandraclaire@...
wrote:
> I said I was IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO GET PERMISSION AND THAT WE
> HAD EXCHANGED EMAILS. READ MORE CAREFULLY.
And now that I've heard this three times already, let me repeat what I said
in my reply to Betty's post. I stand corrected, but the detail of whether
you said you have permission or said you're trying to get it is only one
factor, and a tiny one, in my opinion of your actions, this situation, and
its meaning for fandom.
And, I might add, it's incredibly obnoxious to type in all caps. I'd rather
see a few more "fucks" out of you than have to strain my eyes. I get the
point, quite clearly, that I piss you off and that you're yelling. The caps
are unnecessary, except as a means of heavily emphasizing select words and
phrases.
> Did I say it was okay to write fiction that way?
You did it. To any rational person, that indicates that you believe it's
okay. Everything I've heard from you is that your guilt/bad feelings are
stemming from your understanding now that at the VERY least, you needed to
ask permission *first*.
So fine, you say you understand the need for permission now. That relieves
me greatly. What does not relieve me, and this goes far, far beyond just
you, is that I cannot and will not accept that it is good writing to slap
other people's work together to help flesh out your story. There are
acceptable uses of quoted text in fiction, and the way you've done it is not
one of them.
> Did I ever even
> fucking say that DS was fiction? It's not fiction, not literature,
> it's fanfiction, and it's a pastiche.
Please don't insult the thousands of other people who are writing fanfiction
by belittling it like that. Stories are either fiction or non-fiction.
Fanfiction is *fiction* which is written by *fans*. No, it isn't necessarily
literature, or any other form of high art, though some of the best writers
I've ever read are writing fanfic, and I wish they weren't so they could be
published and have a much wider readership.
And the only way I will ever accept "pastiche" as a label for fanfic is if
you mean work that imitates the STYLE of previous work, and not work that is
made up of SELECTIONS of previous work. I think I've made my opinion on that
difference quite clear.
Caroline (RP 33)
Cassandra Claire again:
--- In Ranting_page@y..., Caroline <nottoosane@y...> wrote:
> on 6/27/01 5:01 PM, cassandraclaire@m... at cassandraclaire@m...
> wrote:
>
> And, I might add, it's incredibly obnoxious to type in all caps.
I'd rather see a few more "fucks" out of you than have to strain my
eyes. I get the point, quite clearly, that I piss you off and that
you're yelling. The caps are unnecessary, except as a means of
heavily emphasizing select words and phrases.
*LOL* I guess I was just trying to be as annoying as Heidi, but
luckily I've surpassed her and am incredibly obnoxious. Yay! And this
is a RANTING PAGE. This is, ergo, where we yell, scream, cuss, and
type in all caps. That's WHAT IT IS FOR.
> > Did I say it was okay to write fiction that way?
>
> You did it. To any rational person, that indicates that you believe
it's okay.
No, it indicates that I *believed* that it was okay.
Everything I've heard from you is that your guilt/bad feelings are
stemming from your understanding now that at the VERY least, you
needed to ask permission *first*.
So fine, you say you understand the need for permission now. That
relievesme greatly. What does not relieve me, and this goes far, far
beyond just you, is that I cannot and will not accept that it is good
writing to slapother people's work together to help flesh out your
story. .....
So I should be having guilt/bad feelings because I'm a bad writer?
Ah. Got that. I'll get started on that right away. I repeat, what
exactly is it that you want from me? What do you want me to say I
feel bad about, exactly? I remain mystified.
Cassandra (RP 34)
Caroline (excerpted):
> And I never said they didn't. Just because I don't like the screaming
> and ranting and cursing doesn't mean I don't think people have the
> right to be upset. Nor do I have to support the personal attacks on
> my friends. Nor do I have to support the smearing of the reputations
> of my friends or the attempts to cause them pain and unhappiness, not
> just in their fandom lives but in their real lives. Nor do I have to
> wave my arms in support of a site that tells Flourish that either she
> toes the party line or she gets fired.
It's your right to not like screaming and ranting. I would get used to it,
though, because there are a lot of ill-behaved people out there and some of
them are against you, and I would either ignore it and them or accept that
responding in kind reflects just as badly on you. I would also get used to
people bitching about some of your friends, as some of them are out there on
very public boards making very heated statements in response to the most
opinionated people who are not on your side. All of this is everyone's
right, but if you're going to take offense and act out because maybe someone
called Heidi an ignorant fool (and I've neither seen you do this nor have I
seen those exact words about Heidi), you gotta admit that's not just not
supporting personal attacks, that's jumping into the fray voluntarily.
But it needs mentioning that what I'm talking about is *only* what I've seen
on boards and lists. People taking fandom vendettas out against someone in
their real life is truly disgusting and against every code of conduct, both
spoken and unspoken, that fandom operates by. For the sake of fandom and my
belief in a basis of trust and respect within it, I hope you were
exaggerating that. If not, I'm really sorry that's happened. PD being
emailed about you is one thing, as she had a right to know. I can't imagine
any other way this would need to be made a real life matter for anyone.
> *shrug* Most people in the real world spit in digust on fanfiction
> writing, period. Mention itin literary circles and you'll get either
> a blank stare or a vomiting noise. "Why don't you do your own
> writing?"
While I question the "most" qualification on that, I would add that many of
the people you're talking about have absolutely no understanding of the
nature of fandom. It reeks of geeky obsessive behavior to them because they
have not been involved, they have not put hours, days, weeks, MONTHS into
stories that will never receive any recognition other than some LoCs and
maybe some web awards, they have never bothered finding any of this out. The
fact that there's a good number of literary snobs out there does not make
fanfic inferior or subject to fewer rules of decent behavior, just as the
fact that there's a good number of neo-Nazis out there does not make any
religion, race, or sexual preference inferior. To say otherwise is flawed
logic.
>
> And frankly, you don't have to have respect for me. I don't care one
> way or another whether you do or don't. But this all-out campaign to
> rip to shreds anyone who associates themself with me is beyond creepy
> and vicious. I'd choose being a kind person over being a good author,
> any day.
There is no campaign to rip anyone to shreds, at least not for me. And I'm
glad you don't care about my opinion of you, because you don't know me, I
don't know you, and if you honestly cared, I'd worry.
Look, I'll admit that a lot of this has gotten out of hand. But I got
involved in this because I was really concerned about the misinformation
that was being spread about plagiarism vs. copyright infringement, and the
way it was being spread on a number of high profile lists and boards. To be
blunt, Heidi really pissed me off, because she was touting the fact that
she's a lawyer while also posting information that could get a lot of
writers who might believe her into a lot of trouble for innocent mistakes
they made because of false beliefs. Disputing Heidi led me into contact with
you, and into further involvement in this matter, and here we are.
I do NOT want to rip anyone to shreds, and I suspect many of the people who
seem so against you don't either, and are merely riled up because they, too,
have come under personal attack. Not all your friends and supporters have
behaved well at all times, either, Cassie. Feelings are hurt on both sides.
Some people have been vicious towards some of the ff.n staff, and even if
it's not fair, you're associated with it because it's about you. And like I
said on C&R, I put some of the responsibility on you for the way things have
escalated, because staying relatively quiet on the matter has let a lot of
people make a lot of assumptions, on both sides. Yes, I think it was good
that you asked that people not attack ff.n or start petitions or whatever.
But if you were really so dead-set against people getting riled up on your
behalf, you could have done at least a little bit more. (RP 36)
And Michela Ecks:
----- Original Message -----
From: Christina <christina@...>
To: <ranting_page@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 4:42 PM
Subject: [Ranting_page] Michela
> Since I assume you love to debate, Michela, (yes, I'm quite aware
> assumptions are a Bad Thing, but I feel I am pretty safe in this
assumption,
> as you've demonstrated this on multiple mailing lists and boards within
the
> last 72 hours,) and you're still on this list, even though you said you'd
> unsubbed in a fit of disgust with the HP fandom, what do you think of all
> this?
*Michela looks at filters* I have about 60 filters and 30 folders and
certain ones are set to yahoo. Got this one though. Michela filters to the
Michela folder.
At any rate, I went to visit my grand parents after I sent out my initial
rant and I asked to be desubbed. I modified my filters on my in-box so any
residual e-mails post desub would end up in the trash and I haven't much
been following any e-mail and now that I know I'm still subbed to this list,
I'll just trundle on off to yahoo groups and desub from those that the list
mods when asked didn't desub me from.
For clarification before I leave, there are some issues that should be
addressed.
I was leaving sites and lists that endorse plagiarism. (My view of
endorsing is condoning. My views of plagiarism are word for word theft
uncited. Take that as you will.) This means I have no problems with Sugar
Quill and mailing lists like hpslash. It means that forums that are not
specific to HP that I have posted to previously, namely fan forum and God
Awful fan fiction, I won't be leaving. I have not posted to nor received
e-mail from (unless like this list, I've got filters on trash but I'll check
that and desub.) any HP lists that have a policy of tolerance. To my
knowledge, I haven't posted to any HP lists in the last 48 hours period. (I
may be wrong. Feel free to correct me via private e-mail.)
I've addressed this to Heidi on the SugarQuill board, but I'll say it again.
I did not tell any one that I was banned from Cassie's mailing list for
disagreeing with Heidi. I e-mailed Rhysenn post ban and asked her who
banned me. She e-mailed me back saying she wasn't aware of me being banned,
didn't know who did it, and didn't know why it was done. I was devoiced
from PoU with out being given an explanation as to why. I did like many
people here do; I vented, whined and discussed with my on-line friends and
aquaintences about this. I may have drawn the illusion to comments where
people said Cassie should have been informed because that's only right to my
own situation. I never said that Heidi was the reason for me being banned.
Rhysenn never sent me an update and frankly, I really don't care. (I only
mention this because Heidi threatened to sue Cairnsy with libel on
sugarquill over this.)
In regards to the Flourish situation, like I did with Cassie (who apparently
lost my e-mail), wanted to give some advance warning because I think people
should be given first warnings and occassionaly second warnings. I've had
my own dealings with the staff at FF.Net and it has been my own experince
that the party line for staff is that you can disagree and disagree
vehemently but that you can't say this publically because, for the sake of
the site, the staff must remain united. I was worried that Flourish might
be jeopordizing her staff position, something which seemed to be very
important to her. I tried to give her a heads up so that she could be aware
of this... which is something she might not have been aware of.
As for the rest, I kindly ask that you leave my name out of future public
rants on list. That's great. Attention, fine, whatever. I have had
nothing to do with the decision to black list Cassie. I am not on staff at
fanfiction.ner. I did not report Cassie. I am, ultimately, irrelevant to
the situation. I have no impact on nor can I change the mind's of any one
on staff. I'm not Pamela Dean so I can't help or change anything in regards
to the situation that Cassie is now in with the author. I'm estentially a
no one who made the mistake of opening her mouth (in a heartily untactful
manner for which I have been whacked repeatedly by my friends) at the right
time and I made myself a target and a scape goat. If Cassie and others need
one, feel free to use me as one. *shrug* If I need to be portrayed as a
jealous writer, please, just clarify who and what and why I'm jealous.
And I would like to request that any one else involved this continuing
discussion please refraim from attacking Cassie or the staff at
FanFiction.Net or the person who reported Cassie. If you don't like what
they did, keep it not liking their action. Petty insults and personal slams
are irrelevant and won't help an already tense situation. They will only
make it worse for everyone involved.
That said, if any one has any questions after I desub, please feel free to
contact me at mecks@... , michela_ecks@... on aim micecks or
h20equalswater or on ICQ at 807639. I'm not adverse to answering your
questions about my own involvement in this situation. I can also be reached
publically at the message board found at GAF (best bet where to find me
publically) http://www.go.to/godawful/ because it's the only board I
frequent with any consistency. (Just be careful of the other locals. They
some times bite.) (RP 46)
At this point, the discussion on Ranting_page died.
Email: Cassandra Claire
Back at the beginning of this drama (as the reader probably does not recall), I left Cassandra Claire a signed review on Draco Sinister on FanFiction.Net. The review was left either June 15, 2001 just before midnight, or June 16, 2001 just after midnight. The review said, "Pamela Dean wrote the Secret Country Trilogy."
At this time, authors could configure their FanFiction.Net accounts so that all reviews were sent to them via email. Reviews with a reviewer email available could be replied to directly.
And I did, in fact, receive an emailed reply from Cassandra Claire the week of June 26, 2001.
She said that it seemed silly to say after all of this drama, but she did know that Pamela Dean wrote the books. When she wrote the chapter, she was working off her notes from high school and did not know the author's name-- she had, however, fixed the citation. Unfortunately, "someone" had uploaded an "old version" of the chapter, which is why the posted version was incorrect. She also said she had thought it was two books, not three. (I paraphrased this note in a summary I wrote of the incident in 2001, and I am relying on that summary here.)
I replied to this email. I addressed only the final portion. I said that there were three books: The Secret Country, The Hidden Land, and The Whim of the Dragon. I said they were difficult to find. I commented that I had read somewhere that The Secret Country and The Hidden Land were originally intended to be one book, but had been split into two. I suggested that perhaps that was what she was thinking of. (Again, paraphrased based on my 2001 summary.)
I do not recall if I received another reply.
Thereafter, I saw numerous people saying that the original disclaimer was correct because The Secret Country and The Hidden Land were one book when Cassandra Claire read them. I think it is a fairly safe assumption on my part that this particular excuse has its origin in that email exchange.
It has been a particularly enduring excuse.
ignatius references this on Fandom Wank's Greatest Hits:The Secret Country was Pamela Dean's book. Credit only went to “inspiration of the concept” of the wizarding afterlife, nothing about inspiration for any passages, and no mentions of Pamela Dean by name. Actually, "The Hidden Land" was the Dean book the passage actually came out of, but I heard someone say before that The Hidden Land was once called The Secret Country, and then it got split up into two books. Or something.
as does Heidi in a response to Michela Ecks, also on Fandom Wank's Greatest Hits:
Note to anyone who's actually still
reading at this point: Pamela Dean's book The Secret Country was split
after it was originally published into two, and then into three
separate books; the section incorporated in Cassie's fic was from what
was originally The Secret Country and later repackaged into The Hidden
Land.
Perhaps I should have mentioned that the split took place before publication?
Part VI: What changed?
Not long after the incident, Cassandra Claire posted two "cookies" for Draco Sinister, chapter 15. On ParadigmOfUncertainty (9582, 6/25/2001), the note said, "This scene is taken from the middle of DS15, when everyone's getting ready for the big birthday party. I wasn't going to post a cookie, but I thought a cheerer-up was in order. THIS COOKIE CONTAINS A QUOTE FROM BLACKADDER. Let Edmund Blackadder come after me with his big snake if it bothers him. Oh, and shippiness is contained herein." On cassie_and_rhysenn (1145, 6/27/2001), the note at the top said, "Just a cookie to cheer up the list a bit. This is from DS15, when everyone's getting ready for the big birthday party. This cookie contains a line from Buffy. She can stake me personally if it bothers her."
After the incident, Cassandra Claire initially cited the plagiarized text in chapter 9 of Draco Sinister, and, although both she and Heidi claimed she had permission to use it, I had never seen a permission statement in the chapter as of August 2005. In approximately May or June of 2005, the text from The Hidden Land was removed.
Some (but not all) of the plagiarized text in the Nightmare Grass scene of chapter 11 was removed in 2001. Currently, the footnotes state: "Nightmare Grass comes from The Secret Country by Pamela Dean. So does the idea of shapechangers who you have to kill in every shape they can transform into." and "Nightmare Grass is from Pamela Dean's book: The Hidden Land, available from Firebird books. Used with permission." (The permission statement was added within the past year; I find it funny that the book title is incorrect.)
I will address some other issues in Draco Sinister at the end of this document.
Part VII: Aftermath -- the other reason I shut up in 2001
I lost my temper (again) after seeing the "one book" excuse touted everywhere and decided to do further research into plagiarism in the Draco Trilogy.
On July 2, 2001, I collapsed and broke my right arm approximately half an inch below my wrist. (I generally simplify by saying I broke my right wrist; in essence, it's true.) There was no apparent physical cause for the collapse (as six hours in the emergency room enduring extensive tests taught me), and I blame myself for getting too caught up in fandom matters.
(Those who really want to see me whine about it can read post 51 on Ranting_page-- obviously, I really wanted to whine, because I could only use my left hand to type.)
I spent two weeks in a cast (to pass time, I taught myself to write with my left hand). I then spent five weeks in a wrist brace and in physical therapy to recover mobility in my right wrist.
During my recovery, one of the first things I did was delete my email exchange with Cassandra Claire. I considered deleting my email exchange with Pamela Dean as well, but Pamela Dean is one of my favorite authors, and I couldn't bring myself to delete her email.
I also terminated communication with Michela Ecks. I made a couple of posts on her Writers U board in 2002; other than that, we didn't really resume contact until 2005.
Part VIII: The excuses, a summary
Because these get lost in the long series of posts on the subject, I would like to reiterate (in sequence) the "excuses" posted by Cassandra Claire over several days in 2001. All emphasis is mine.
June 23, 2001:
The Pamela Dean passage was deliberately paraphrased (PoU 9432):
I have borrowed quotes, and
quite intentionally paraphrased that scene from Pamela Dean, and was
quite clear in stating that I was doing so. I was *not* passing off
the Buffy quotes or any other reference as my own work (as anyone on
this list clearly and surely knows.)
As previously noted, this was combined with uploading a new version of the chapter with altered disclaimers in the Files section. The original disclaimer on FanFiction.Net and on the mailing lists said: "Credit for the inspiration for this conception of the wizarding afterlife goes to a book called The Secret Country, alas, I no longer recall who wrote it." To me, this is not any sort of clear statement that the scene was intentionally paraphrased.
June 25, 2001:
Borrowing is standard; she thought this use was acceptable (C&R 1115):
I have always seen fanfiction as a venue in which I can do what I
*cannot* do in those other venues -- namely, what Minx called earlier
(and with accuracy, I thought) a "pastiche" --- weaving together
JKR's world with my own plotline, and incorporating bits and pieces
of other fantasy worlds. I'd have to ask you if you've been a member
of the PoU list -- if you were, you'd have seen the discussions that
follow the release of each chapter -- "Oh, that's the swordfighting
bit from Zelazny," "Oh, that's the scene from thus-and-such episode
of Buffy" -- I had never made it any secret that that's what I was
doing, and since fanfiction is by its nature so derivative, and since
I have seen so many other fanfics doing similar things -- pulling
chunks of text from books, rewriting scenes from movies, dozens upon
dozens of quotes from Buffy and Monty Python and Blackadder and so
forth (I even had a sort of unofficial quote-nabbing contest going
with other fanfic writers -- if we found a cool quote we'd claim it
for our next chapter before anyone else snagged it) it really did
seem to me that as long as it was disclaimered, it was fine. As long
as I was clear about what I was doing, it was fine. I used to get
dozens of emails in which readers sent me sources -- sometimes
quotes, sometimes whole pages of text from books or plays --
saying "Cassie, I think you should have Draco say this" or "maybe you
could use this description/place/setting." It seemed to me that my
audience understood what I was doing, or trying to do, with my
fanfiction, and that as long as I was not concealing this from them,
it was all right. As for the Pamela Dean section, when it came out
she was discussed on PoU. People were pointed (not by me) to where on
the web they could download the complete text of her books( now
there's copyright infringment for ya.) So I didn't feel as if I were
trying to hide anything.
I'd like to address several points in this post. First, Cassandra Claire cites discussion that occurred on the ParadigmOfUncertainty list after the release of chapter 9 of Draco Sinister. So, I went to look at those posts. Chapter 8 was posted onlist in two parts on December 3, 2000, while Chapter 9 was posted onlist in two parts on December 17, 2000.
The following are excerpts from posts regarding chapter 9:
5362: Ebony: "I can't believe I get to review this first! I've spent the past half
hour in heaven... this is Cassie's *best* writing since the penultimate chapter of DD."
5373: Voicelady: "Oh, Cassie, that was just wonderful! This story just keeps getting better with each chapter!
"And BTW, The Secret Country is by Pamela Dean."
5374: Stacy: "Cassie, you've done it again, and in only two weeks. How do you DO that????? I know, I know, you're a professional writer and all that, but really, the speed with which you turn these chapters out always blows me away."
5376: Rosmerta: "Cassie, I must apologize! I made that joking suggestion several days ago, asking you to have Draco experience an NDE and meet James and Lily - and I never dreamed you'd really DO it! Though your near-death experience wasn't the traditional light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel, of course. But what you did worked so well, and I loved "meeting" Harry's parents like that."
5377: Rosmerta: "Oh and by the way....
"What happened to that "bargaining" thing? It seems Draco was interrupted by CPR before this could take place??"
5378: Ruth, in reply to Rosmerta: "I think that _was_ the Bargaining."
5380: Heidi: "Here's what I loved:
The scene in the underworld with the Potters - just the right note of emotion under the surface (do spirits have an "under the surface"?) without getting maudlin at all"
5381: Cassandra Claire, to Rosmerta: 'No, the CPR -- Ron trying to bring him back to life -- that WAS the Bargaining. "Someone is trying to bring you back," or so said Godric (or whoever...can't recall.)'
5420: Carole: "First the general comment:
"How the heck do you do this??? 50 pages in 2 weeks! With all your other email correspondence and the other lists you are active on! Plus a job!
"Your descriptive vocabulary is just not within my realm ...its way above (this is a creative way to say...jeez you are good). It would never occur to me to describe all that you describe or even the way you describe it. There are a fair number of writer's whose long descriptions get tedious...but yours have not yet gotten to that point."
5447: Peg Kerr: "OT: Hey, Pamela is a friend of mine. We've been in a Shakespeare reading group together, and she's the one who urged me to write _The Wild Swans_ with a double story structure--I mention her in the back in the author's acknowledgements. She also wrote _Tam Lin_, one of my favorite books that I'm always pushing on everyone. Good taste, Cassie!"
5453: Cassandra Claire: 'As for the Voice, okay, it was NOT God. Only rave gets to write God into fics. Call it the Guardian of the River. It was based partly on the scene in Greek mythology where Hercules goes down into Hell to bring back Cerberus, and Charon, who ferries souls across the Styx river, at first won't let him cross, telling him: "This water is not for you, and my boat does not carry living men."
'PS to Peg: Pamela Dean is wonderful. I have all her books, except the Secret Country which alas is now out of print.'
5455: Voicelady: "I know it's not quite the same, but you can download it from the web. Sorry,
can't remember the name of the site offhand. That's where I read it."
5519: Liz: "The voice is rather confusing because it seems to be the demon, and it seems to be the immediate problem. But Cassie never goes into it, or develops the voice. It leaves an unpleasant, unfinished, lopsided feeling in the reader. Otherwise, I found the river to be a commonplace in the netherworld, no matter which culture or author writes it."
5525: Cassandra Claire: 'The voice in the afterlife wasn't anyone we know. (I think I answered this question before, but heck.) It's the Guardian of the River -- something like Charon in Greek mythology. I took some of what it says from the myth when Hercules (who is alive) visits the underworld, and Charon, the Guardian of the River, tells him "This water is not for you, and my boat can only carry living men." It only cares about the outcome of the bargain because it just doesn't care about Draco one way or the other. If he's dead, he can cross the river. If he's alive, he gets sent back. The Guardian doesn't give a toss either way, it's just protecting the river.'
5526: Cassandra Claire: "As usual, I just never know what people are going to latch onto in my
chapters. As of yet, nobody's asked me about what I thought was the Really Big Mystery (well, aside from the secondary mystery of who's dead) and everyone wants to know who the voice is. *grins* It never occured to me that I needed to explain the voice any more than I needed to explain why the afterworld is a barren rocky plain, or that anyone would think the voice was the demon, since the demons have no established connection with the world of the spirits. The voice made it clear that Draco was NOT in Hell, which is the demons' realm. I also thought it was clear, since the voice says it doesn't care about the outcome of the bargaining -- i.e. whether Draco lives or dies -- that it wasn't the voice of anyone who knew him. Voices speaking out of nowhere in the afterlife are none too unusual in fiction and mythology, and sometimes things that seem mysterious are just that -- mysteries. I have no plans to further develop the voice, and I doubt it will make another appearance unless somebody else just about croaks."
5665: Cassandra Claire (in response to an inquiry about when the next chapter would come out): "*looks optimistic* In a week, give or take a few days. I hope. Up until two days ago I hadn't written word one, so we'll see how it goes." (dated 12/31/2000; the next chapter was released 1/6/2001, and was approximately 17,900 words. According to the author's note, the chapter had been beta read by Heidi, who had offered a suggestion to alter the first sentence.)
The references to Pamela Dean's friend in Cassandra Claire's later excuse are accurate, as is the mention that Pamela Dean's books could be downloaded online. What I find interesting, however, is Cassandra Claire's responses about "The bargaining" and "The Voice" (both appearing in the material from The Hidden Land.) In The Hidden Land, the bargaining is literal-- people are bargaining with the Lords of the Dead to bring Ted back to life. Cassandra Claire explains that CPR is "the Bargaining." In regard to "The Voice," she says "I took some of what it says from the myth when Hercules (who is alive) visits the underworld." However, the lines "The Voice" speaks are lifted from The Hidden Land. She also says "The Voice" is "the Guardian of the River"-- a name which it claims in The Hidden Land but does not mention in the incorporated text in Draco Sinister.
In all responses to comments on the scene, she explains that she wrote it based on mythology, not that it was taken (or paraphrased) from Pamela Dean.
Further, Cassandra Claire states she has all of Pamela Dean's books with the exception of The Secret Country, which makes the fact that the disclaimer ever failed to include the author's name quite odd.
Nothing I have seen indicates that Cassandra Claire is not claiming credit for writing the scene.
In the posts I have not shown, there are several references to readers enjoying quotes, and to Pratchett's "eighth son of an eighth son" concept. Some appear to have recognized some of the quotes as originating in Black Adder or Red Dwarf.
Still, I want to make it clear that I have always been provisionally willing to accept a part of this excuse: Cassandra Claire thought incorporating material was acceptable in fanfiction-- and being blacklisted had made her realize it was not.
However, the obvious follow-up to this excuse is for Cassandra Claire to fully annotate her fanfiction and to stop incorporating material from other sources.
June 26, 2001:
She had fixed her disclaimers, but an "old version" was uploaded when she "chaptered" the story on FanFiction.Net.
This is similar to what I received in email. I no longer have the email, so my citations point to comments made by Flourish. Flourish repeated this excuse in an AIM chat with Michela Ecks and also on the Ranting_page list. Cassandra Claire was present for the discussion on the Ranting_page and even replied to Flourish's post. Cassandra Claire did not contradict Flourish's account.
...and this proves that Cassie is FAR more honorable than, say,
Michaela, who continues to rant about things. You know what? If
Michaela doesn't think that Cassie deserves some credit for (a)
having a stronger disclaimer on the fic, but messing up when
she was uploading the chapterized version, (excerpt from Ranting_page 17)
From the chat log:
slytherinstar: Let me tell you *one* thing, though...
slytherinstar: her disclaimer was only so wrong because she uploaded the wrong version.
[...]
slytherinstar: I do give her a little more credit becuase the problem only came up because when she chapterized she uploaded the wrong version of the disclaimer. She had another version that had the citing the source! However, when we chapterized, she accidentally uploaded the wrong one. It's not an excuse, but it is something that makes me slightly more sympathetic.
[...]
MicEcks: Word for word and you get the book wrong?
slytherinstar: *shrugs* That version, as I've heard it, only was sent out to her lists. I don't know.
Aja claimed that Cassandra Claire had given her a similar excuse:
It is true that Cassie wrote down unattributed quotes often, but The Secret Country was one of her favorite novels and it was highly unlikely that she would mistake the writing from one of her favorite novels as her own. What happened was that initially the passage was cited. She told me that when the chapter was posted on ff.net initially it had the proper attribution, and I believe her. However, the chapter stayed up for something like 2 years without being noticed at all, and in that time Cassie believes she did some kind of formatting changes to various chapters that caused the chapter notes with the citation to disappear without her being aware of it.
This excuse makes reference to the fact that FanFiction.Net changed the archive to allow fanfiction to be posted with chapters on January 29, 2001. I believe that, by the end of April 2001, authors were required to link all "stories" that were actually separate chapters of a single piece of fanfiction.
To evaluate this excuse, I will assume that Cassandra Claire originally had some problems remembering Pamela Dean's name. However, it was clearly provided to her in a post on ParadigmOfUncertainty on December 17, 2000 by Voicelady (post 5373). Therefore, she had ample opportunity to alter the chapter posted on FanFiction.Net before January 19, 2001. I point out this date in particular, because this is the date that
stellabymoor gives as the date when she downloaded and saved chapter nine of Draco Sinister from FanFiction.Net. The version downloaded and saved by stellabymoor had the same author's note as the one on the chapter at the time Cassandra Claire's account was deleted.In addition, the cassie_and_rhysenn Yahoo! group was created on March 18, 2001. If there were a version of the chapter with a stronger disclaimer, it seems likely that this version would have been saved on C&R. However, as of June 22, 2001, the files section of C&R contained the same version of chapter 9 as the files section of ParadigmOfUncertainty, and both had disclaimers that matched the version posted on FanFiction.Net in June 2001. As my "Stealth User" posts on ParadigmOfUncertainty and cassie_and_rhysenn note, Cassandra Claire posted chapter 9 with revised disclaimers in the files sections of both lists on June 23, 2001.
I do not believe the chapter with a stronger disclaimer ever existed.
June 27, 2001, or sometime thereafter
She copied it into a notebook and thought it was her own writing.
Snacky comments:
Supposedly she copied down several pages of this novel in her notebook, because she loved it so much, I guess? And then when she was writing the Draco story, she came across it, in her notebook, and since she hadn't written down who actually wrote it, she assumed it was hers, and put it in her story.
(ETA: See Snacky's comment below for clarification.)
Anatsuno says:
I seem to remember her more recently (as in like a year ago, in one of those times the issue was brought up yet again!) saying something about the whole 'had it in my notebook didn't know it wasn't mine' kind of thing. so that's a little bit weird, to think she told you something else, yaknow?
Everyone's heard this excuse, though no one can cite Cassandra Claire saying it. The email I received from Cassandra Claire said she was working off her notes from high school, which seems to me to be in a similar vein.
For this excuse, I can only point to the complete contradiction with earlier explanations claiming that the incorporation of text was deliberate.
Apparently, I'm the only person who received both the notebook story and the "old version posted accidentally story."
Later June, prior to July 2
They were one book when she read them!
I have explained that I believe this excuse originates with the email I sent Cassandra Claire. ETA: I was unable to find a link where Cassandra Claire made this claim, but
farmercuerden has provided a disclaimer where Cassandra Claire says this:"Draco Sinister," Chapter 9: In this chapter, there are quotes in here from Red Dwarf (back when it was funny), Blackadder, Buffy, and I realized I'd criminally neglected Terry Pratchett so far, so made up for it by nicking several quotes in this chapter at once. Also, I have noted where a section of this chapter uses portions of Pamela Dean's book The Secret Country, which (after I read it) was divided into two books - The Secret Country and The Hidden Land. (from jintian/hesychasm's blog, January 12, 2002)
I can also point out a post Cassandra Claire responded to in which it was alluded to. She did not contradict it:
(There are also a number of references to other works that indicate that the author has good taste in reading, including an extended reference to Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy (I didn't know that The Secret Country and The Hidden Land were originally one book).)
As is visible in earlier parts of this narrative, this excuse is certainly something Heidi has repeated. Because of the email exchange, I assume Heidi heard this directly from Cassandra Claire. It is an excuse I saw making the rounds prior to July 2, and one I have seen repeated many times since.
As previously stated, this cannot be true.
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