Non-faily adult fantasy
In a recent post about fantasy with really squidgy handling of female characters and rape, I made a claim I may not be able to back up. Which was, that I could produce a list of feminist/sex positive fantasy by consulting my bookshelves.

Okay, I can. But it's a short list.

Help?

It's pretty easy to come up with awesome women in YA fiction and Urban Fantasy, but some of us like swords and castles, and what then?

So what I'm really looking to build here is a list of books that:

1. Loosely fall under the category of "high fantasy" or "epic fantasy"
2. Are written for adult audiences
3. Do not feature titillating rape scenes, headbanging misogyny, women as cardboard sex objects, etc.

After all, most books mentioned under "feminist fantasy" are YA (Tamora Pierce, Robin McKinley, Garth Nix) and not everyone likes YA.

(I'm also going to note when things have problematic content that some people may or may not have issues with)

Inda by Sherwood Smith

First of a series set in a richly-built world, about Inda, a member of his country's ruling military class, from age 10 on. Even as a boy, he's a brilliant strategist (though a bit of an Aspie) and has to cope when political problems among the adult mean he has to go to sea. He takes up fighting pirates. It's pretty awesome. Meanwhile back home, his caste's women secretly plot to get the men to stop killing each other. Has awesome women, sex-positivity, and (so far as I've read) emerging gay and genderqueer characters.

Green Rider by Kristen Britain

Karigan G'ladheon knows where she's going when she gets expelled from her school from fighting. She's walking home and taking up a post in her father's merchant business. Then she meets a dying messenger of the King on the road there who begs her to carry his message to the capital... and much to her annoyance, she is chivvied into a hero's journey. Awesome women, varied quality of sequels; there's a scene with an attempted rape in the first book.

The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N. K. Jemisin

Yeine Darr's mother was a disgraced princess disowned from her cutthroat royal family for marrying Yeine's father. Then her grandfather declares Yeine his third potential heir, throws her into the deep end of serious political, military, religious, and spiritual conflict and appears not to expect her to survive. Ha ha. Awesome women, sex-positivity, seriously non-Western cultural assumptions about gender, characters of colour. The violence is as well-written as the rest of the book, which means it's actually a lot pointier and perhaps more disturbing than your typical fantasy.

Sky of Swords by Dave Duncan

Duncan's King's Blades books are 100% PULP FANTASY GARY STU ESCAPISM. And aren't explicitly feminist. They're fun popcorn that's surprisingly light on fail. It's set in kind of an alternate Tudor England, and it's about this school for the BESTEST swordsmen ever who are AWESOME and dangerous and manly and also the ladies love them. However, Duncan's ideal woman is smart and strong and capable. Which means that when I get lots of awesome sword stuff, I also get men acknowledging that their one true love has had sex before and it's fine, as well as Princess Malinda, who is like the Elizabeth/Mary composite character who has to make serious sacrifices to save her country. Sky of Swords is her book, but it's in a trilogy with The Gilded Chain and Lord of the Fire Lands, and as time-travel is a plot point, some bits of some books are set in an AU timeline. As for objectionableness, well, the series features a Henry VIII cognate, and sequels feature not!Ivan the Terrible. You take what you can get.

A Song for Arbonne by Guy Gavriel Kay

Set in an AU version of medieval Provence, where women rule a Court of Love and there are troubadors and tournaments everywhere. Arbonne's women have managed an unprecedented amount of freedom and power, but it's frail at best; their culture still relies on arranged marriage, and their neighbours to the north are misogynistic bastards who think they're all heretics. Has disturbing stuff with the misogynistic bastards, cultural disdain of homosexuality, and violence. Also sex-positivity and awesome women. I love all his work but dude sometimes has Issues, but: The Fionavar Tapestry also fits the bill here, although the rape of a main character and her subsequent actions and recovery play a significant role in the plot.

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	winterfox 2011-02-12 11:30 am UTC (link)
	Really? I found the Black Jewels trilogy deeply misogynistic. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	evilsqueakers 2011-02-12 11:48 am UTC (link)
	Why? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2011-02-12 11:55 am UTC (link)

Okay where to begin.

1. Women are broken if they're raped on their "Virgin Night" (Jaenelle only recovers thanks to the healing power of love, I guess). Men don't have the same problem; certainly most of the guys in the series have been raped from childhood, sunup to sundown, but all retain their magic power and martial might, no problem. Making a big deal of female virginity like this is deeply problematic.

2. Women's magic goes to shit when they're menstruating. What the fuck?

3. All the gender essentialism. All the rape. It's like the author has no imagination and doesn't know what else to throw at her characters when she wants them to suffer. Ergo, rape rape rape rape rape. The amount of sexual threat in the trilogy is ridiculous. Nobody just murders anyone, they all want to rape each other to death first.

It's incredibly fucking vile. That's not even touching on how creepy and pedo-tastic the Jaenelle/Daemon relationship is. The "matriarchal" aspect of the culture is IMO feminisn't at its worst. It's no more feminist than D&D drow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drow_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)).

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evilsqueakers
2011-02-12 12:16 pm UTC (link)

1) Uh, you do realize that the rape is a very, very bad and problematic thing, right? That there are consequences. It's not the "Virgin Night" bit that breaks them but the torment of being at their most vulnerable (in the descent of their jewels). To paraphrase a quote I heard on Law and Order: UK earlier tonight, anyone can be raped and broken but it's how you take the power back that matters.

It's not the martial might at all. A man can be broken. Look at Daemon in the Twisted Kingdom, or his father in later books. It's not like women alone are stuffed into the broken role. And a broken witch can have strength and power. Look at Daemon's mother. She rides the sanity line, but she never lost her strength in character or power. And a woman is saying "break them" and it's the other, emotionally stronger women who seem to try and piece the broken women back. Not the Tainted ones, no. But the ones who realize that a Queen's blood is what nourishes the land and helps to bring to life.

2) Well, sure their magic goes to shit. It's a hormonal imbalance. It's not like it's unreasonable to assume that when you're at your most vulnerable, your magic might be affected. I mean, the magic resides in that descended place. That's not misogynistic so much as pointing out that even strong people have low points and have to fall back. And notice most of the women growled off the bodyguarding men because they can take care of themselves in other ways that aren't connected to magic.

3. Murder is bad, but it doesn't have psychological effects. If you're going to debase someone, not physically, but in ways that take away peace then you take away their rights. Things that leave impressions. And I'd say that Saetan's lost finger indicate that good old extricuating violence isn't unheard of. Certainly Surreal has no problem meting out justice with a knife instead of magic.

The whole point of the matriarchal system is that just because it's run by women doesn't make it perfect. Gender doesn't signify perfection; gender's a biological luck draw. What signifies the feminism is the fact women have a choice in being good or bad. They are not "lesser" by society anymore. They're more. But that doesn't make them anymore better than any other society. It's not utopia simply because women are in charge. Bad Things Happen in every society. It's illogical to ignore that, even in a fictional world. But it's the consequences and how people survive that matter.

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winterfox
2011-02-12 12:21 pm UTC (link)

It's not the "Virgin Night" bit that breaks them but the torment of being at their most vulnerable (in the descent of their jewels).

Then why is Daemon not, like, deprived of all his magic or something. I'm not talking about being emotionally broken or fucked up or whatever; I'm talking about losing your magic/being unable to access it. The men are fine however many times they're raped, tortured, whatever. You got a vagina? LOL BYE BYE POWER.

2) Well, sure their magic goes to shit. It's a hormonal imbalance.

are you saying men don't experience hormonal imbalances

because if so looooooooool you

Murder is bad, but it doesn't have psychological effects. If you're going to debase someone, not physically, but in ways that take away peace then you take away their rights. Things that leave impressions.

Are you serious. There're, like, thousands of ways to torture/psychologically fuck with someone that don't involve rape.

Jesus you actually, honestly, truly believe these books are feminist.

This is amazing. Do you also consider Laurell K. Hamilton feminist?

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evilsqueakers
2011-02-12 01:21 pm UTC (link)

Then why is Daemon not, like, deprived of all his magic or something. I'm not talking about being emotionally broken or fucked up or whatever; I'm talking about losing your magic/being unable to access it. The men are fine however many times they're raped, tortured, whatever. You got a vagina? LOL BYE BYE POWER.

But that's a fallacy, because as I remember, the women can access small amount of power. No, a woman may NOT be a sapphire after all. But she might be her birthright in small pulses. That's the point, though. That's part of why this cultivation has to stop. You damage the women, you damage the world around you. Including the land you're standing on. World isn't figurative.

are you saying men don't experience hormonal imbalances

because if so looooooooool you

No, I'm saying that if you're losing blood once a month and the people, like say, Surreal, are somewhat humanoid then women do lose certain imbalances. Please, just survey 100 random people throughout the world in any given day and see how they change. This isn't some strawman. It's a biological imbalance.

Are you serious. There're, like, thousands of ways to torture/psychologically fuck with someone that don't involve rape.

Jesus you actually, honestly, truly believe these books are feminist.

No. I believe that women have the choice in the books to be good or bad. The main female antagonists created this fuck-up. Not the males. The women wanting more and more power. And to counter that, you have people like Jaenelle, her Court, Sylvia, and those who cross territories with no high-ranking jewels to serve under the potential for more. Some men were more than willing say "yay violence!" and you have some men said no.

This is amazing. Do you also consider Laurell K. Hamilton feminist?

Oh, you..thinking that's clever.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

winterfox
2011-02-12 12:24 pm UTC (link)

Oh and re: the mom--she's still pretty insane and she's considered the exception: everyone else treats Virgin Night as this most vulnerable thing for girls but for men eh whatever, get some broken glass in your anus but on average you'll stain your magic, awesome. Unlike his mom, Daemon can function more or less okay. Ditto for Lucilol (lol the naming scheme in this book, is Anne Bishop like twelve).

Certainly Surreal has no problem meting out justice with a knife instead of magic.

She's not a villain. I'm sorry, but an entire trilogy where villains don't know how to do anything but raperaperape signifies a giant gaping void where authorial imagination should be.

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evilsqueakers
2011-02-12 01:07 pm UTC (link)

Unlike his mom, Daemon can function more or less okay.

Oh, you mean, when he basically created a different persona entirely to function as he's raped and broken for pure pleasure....by a scorned woman's anger? Even if it's not a woman he angered by existence? That's more-or-less okay? Or the recuperation of the Twisted Kingdom over being accused of raping a child, even falsely? Where he's lost for two years time, of wandering in and out? And his sustaining magic that could kill without warrant because he slides into a land that 99% of the people in his life can't lead him back out? Even people who see and can under the Kingdom's price?

No. A man may not be broken on Virgin Night, but he can be hurt, he can altered, he can be psychically damaged in believing this is necessary because if he doesn't do it, then he's going to become ringed, like Daemon and Lucivar. And any other pleasure slave that is controlled for the pleasure of a less consent inclined female. You can cultivate harm to anyone. Especially someone sold for power, like Daemon, by his mother.

She's not a villain. I'm sorry, but an entire trilogy where villains don't know how to do anything but raperaperape signifies a giant gaping void where authorial imagination should be.

And I find it disingenuous to assume that only a male's influence would associate rape is pain to a woman. A woman can fear some sort of physical violation without it being a male action involved. A woman can see a broom handle, know from her biological luck draw that it would hurt on all points, and could gain the upper hand in the imbalance by torturing someone innocent. Just because she has woman by gender's name doesn't mean a man is her influence. Some women are sick, regardless.

And I'd say that to a man's wife, or a man's child, it might make Surreal a villain since she takes someone's male figure away. Just because he loves Briarwood doesn't mean he'd be willing to touch is own. Hello Jaenelle's biological father's implicit non-action in the rape his daughter by her stepfather. Seeing someone's life in bits and pieces over many, many centuries doesn't indicate total and complete picture. Justice can come at a handsome price reward, and it might not always be 100% honest. It might only be just in that moment and time. And there are always unacknowledged victims to every paid action that an assassin might make.

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evilsqueakers
2011-02-12 10:51 pm UTC (link)

Especially someone sold for power, like Daemon, by his mother.

Excuse me, I meant to type stepmother since Tersa loved her boy dearly. But regardless. And please add into the fact a woman can bastardize her own child from the males in her life, in which he will have no claim to care or be a part of the child's life, at the Birthright Ceremony. It takes away the familial opportunities for a child that has a loving father based on cruelty. Look at Daemon, again. Tell me how much worse his life would be if Saetan had been named.

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	winterfox 2011-02-12 11:56 am UTC (link)
	Whups, that anon was me, of course. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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