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ekaterinv
2012-04-05 08:10 pm UTC (link)

Well, the heroine doesn't have sex with the hero. Unfortunately. Apparently that's all it takes -- it preaches lots of crappy stuff, but so long as it also preaches abstinence until marriage, it's good for the kiddies. (Of course, I think Twilight shouldn't be in any section, because the writing is so bad it doesn't deserve to be published, and I'm not even talking about the plot.)

But really, I don't get what makes something designated YA or not in the fantasy realm. The Hero and the Crown is YA. Rose Daughter is not. Idek. A good book is a good book, is all I know.

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	iamnotyourmuse 2012-04-05 09:10 pm UTC (link)
	When I took a class on young adult lit in grad school there was a whole day about defining what it is and what makes it for teens as opposed to for adults and all I really remember is generally it's the age(s) of the protagonist(s) that's key. Except I can think of several adult novels that feature teens, so, whatever. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ekaterinv
2012-04-05 09:47 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, and The Hero and the Crown features a woman who starts as a teen and grows up. And has sex with someone she doesn't marry. And almost dies horribly and has a very graphic fight with a dragon. `And lots of people die. And it won a Newberry Medal.

I can think of lots of kids' and YA novels that feature adults, too.

Some stuff makes sense -- I wouldn't put Umberto Eco or Susan Sontag in YA, for instance.

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	the__ivorytower 2012-04-05 10:10 pm UTC (link)
	There's more than one series of books by Tamora Pierce that's popped into the 9-14 section that as far as I'm concerned does not belong there. Apparently, sex is for adults, but serial murder is for kids. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rhosyn_du 2012-04-06 12:24 am UTC (link)
	Which of Pierce's series involves serial murder? I like her writing and I'm a total sucker for serial killer stories, so I clearly need to read it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	the__ivorytower 2012-04-06 12:35 am UTC (link)
	The Circle Opens books ALL have serial killers in them, which honestly isn't a spoiler, it comes up either really early or in the summary of the story. Though to be fair, even the beginning books don't exactly pull punches. Dead pirates, forest fires and plagues, anyone? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

chibikaijuu
2012-04-19 07:04 pm UTC (link)

I'm not sure I'd really class any of them but Tris's as "serial killer stories", since the others involve revenge murders, or gang-related deaths (though not in the gang-fight way), or indirect killings where the focus of the killer isn't really on the deaths.

I don't think the books are inappropriate for teens, given the *way* they're written. Not to mention, there's sex in her other books, which are usually targeted at a slightly younger audience. (Or anyway, Song of The Lioness and The Immortals feel like they're written a couple of years younger than The Circle Opens is.)

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	the__ivorytower 2012-04-19 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	They're put in the 9-14 section at my local bookstore. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	chibikaijuu 2012-04-19 06:56 pm UTC (link)
	Also some of the Beka Cooper books? They've fuzzed in my brain a little but there was definitely a plot line involving repeated mass-murders. Oh, also child-murders. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ekaterinv 2012-04-06 01:34 am UTC (link)
	Well, the way movies are being rated these days, it appears that rape is fine for a general audience, but loving, consensual sex, or discussions of the complexities of consensual sex, must be relegated to NC-17 at best. Not too surprising that books are being "rated" in the same way. (Reply to this)(Parent)

eleutheria
2012-04-06 01:09 am UTC (link)

This is completely unscientific and anecdata, but to me the difference is focus and scope. YA fantasy is first person or tight third and never or rarely changes viewpoints. You see the world through the eyes of the child or adolescent main character, and that character is as concerned about romance and the events immediately around them as they are about bigger-picture issues, and often more so. Basically, you don't see as much of the world, you don't have the POV shifts you often get with adult fantasy, YA books are more, intimate, I guess. As I often read as much for the world as the characters, I find YA claustrophobic and unsatisfying.

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	ekaterinv 2012-04-06 01:30 am UTC (link)
	Personally, I dislike books that are about anything but the characters. The world matters to me inasmuch as it shapes and is shaped by the people in it. Scenery and stuff can be fun, but the amount of world-building a lot of "adult" fantasy spends its time on bores me silly. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

eleutheria
2012-04-06 03:42 am UTC (link)

Okay. I didn't say one was better than the other, simply that they're not as interchangeable as some people find them to be. That assumption (the interchangeability) bothers me because cross-reccing doesn't always work. Every time I ask for fantasy recs and specify "no YA, please", I get a passel of YA recs with "yes it's about a teenager, but it's well-written" comments, and I think "well, maybe this one will be different", but it virtually never is. I don't care if it's about a character who starts as a teenager, I care about that... big-scope-ness. The thing that makes "Deed of Paksennarion" different from "Song of the Lioness", even though the plots are quite similar. They're both good books, just one didn't work for me.

And worldbuilding is a lot more than "scenery and stuff".

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m_butterfly
2012-04-11 04:16 am UTC (link)

If you love intricate world-building, have you given CS Friedman a try? It's always a little awkward to recommend her for two reasons: her books often take quite a while to really get going, and in most of her stuff, every single major character is an asshole, or becomes an asshole, or used to be an asshole, or is an asshole part-time. But her world-building is undeniably brilliant--the universe-explaining appendix at the back of In Conquest Born is a better science fiction book by itself than some other ones I've read.

Although oddly, her best-known book--This Alien Shore--is also her weakest, I'd say.

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eleutheria
2012-04-11 06:01 am UTC (link)

I adore Friedman, she's one of my all-time favorite authors, and her work is no small inspiration on my own SF project. Just got done rereading This Alien Shore on Kindle, in fact. I'd say that's probably my favorite of her books.

(As an aside, I've also been pining for In Conquest Born fanfic since I read that book to no avail. Serious hatesex needing to happen.) I also recced ICB to my husband as "this is like Star Wars only written by someone who actually knows how to write".

Personally I think the third book of the Magister trilogy is her weakest. There was some very good stuff in there, I'm not sure why it just didn't click for me the way her other stuff usually does.

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	jetamors 2012-04-06 07:13 pm UTC (link)
	To be honest, one of the things I like most about YA is that I'm generally not going to be blindsided by something like the scarf scene in River of Gods. I'm not opposed to characters (teenaged or otherwise) having sex, but I really wish more adult novelists would fade to black. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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