esclaramonde
2012-07-01 01:41 pm UTC (link)

Interesting, although I think she's overgeneralizing all the past princesses in order to strengthen her point - reducing Tangled's Rapunzel to "love interest or prize to be won", really? And calling all the non-Artemisian princesses "love trophies" doesn't sit well with me either. And the idea of the warrior-princess, um, hasn't just "emerged from the collective unconscious" - it's really, really common in YA fantasy.

I find this a really good analysis gender roles/archetypes in SW&tH, if you're interested.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	spawn_of_kong 2012-07-01 01:43 pm UTC (link)
	Apparently, I'm not allowed to view the linked entry. :-( (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	esclaramonde 2012-07-01 01:46 pm UTC (link)
	So sorry, I didn't realize it was locked! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	pantyless_angel 2012-07-01 03:25 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you, you've voiced the problems I had with the article much better than I could. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sandglass
2012-07-01 08:25 pm UTC (link)

Hell, ditto for Shrek. Fiona wasn't really a prize. I mean, she was for Farquat or whatever his name was, but for Shrek the prize was having his home back, and Fiona mostly wanted to have the curse removed, pretty much at any odds. She was a person in her own right, not just a love interest.

And comparing a character like Katniss (which is the only movie of the three I'd watched) to princess characters strikes me as that same bullshit sexism that lead people to compare Twilight to the Hunger Games just because they're written by a woman and have a female protagonist. She's a poor girl of average birth, and definitely no princess. We don't go around calling boys and men who win contests princes, so why would we call Katniss one? Katniss's victory isn't even really a reward. She keeps her life, but at a grave price. Katniss is a revolutionary, not a princess, and not an Artemis figure either.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	cmdr_zoom 2012-07-01 09:34 pm UTC (link)
	Fahrquad, which is pronounced not at all like F*ckwad. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	shinga 2012-07-01 09:43 pm UTC (link)
	... how did this never occur to me? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	singe 2012-07-02 02:00 pm UTC (link)
	Me either! Now I'm ashamed. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	spawn_of_kong 2012-07-02 02:57 pm UTC (link)
	Don't be, I didn't get it until now as well. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	tinmiss 2012-07-13 02:46 am UTC (link)
	Ditto this! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	anthologia 2012-07-02 02:43 am UTC (link)
	Seriously, why is Katniss even on this list? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

female_fanboy
2012-07-04 07:12 pm UTC (link)

Every time somebody lauds Katniss as a feminist icon, I want to stab myself in the eye with an arrow.

"Damn the Capitol and their evil consumption and shallowness and-OOH! PRETTY DRESSES AND COOKIES. I AM SO PRETTY (genuinely pretty, unlike that big-titted slut Glimmer) AND THIS IS SO YUMMY."

(And don't get me started on the fact that she seems far more troubled by her love life than by the fact that she killed a group of kids in a frankly heinous way.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

melusina
2012-07-05 04:54 am UTC (link)

. . . are you serious?

First of all, she is starving in District 12— her "delight" (which is mixed anyway) in the food at the Capitol is because she hasn't had enough to eat in years, perhaps ever. Any interest she has in pretty dresses are because she is desperate to get sponsors to help her survive. Her stylists are always deploring the fact that Katniss could not give two shits about how she looked in front of Capitol eyes— she wants to wear the braid her mother left in her hair because of the emotional tie to it, and hates having to take it out. And the idea that she is more troubled by her love life than the games is kind of hilarious— her entire focus is on survival, and playing up the relationship with Peeta helps her through that.

And the idea that she cared more about her love life than Rue, for example, is kind of hilarious. Yeah, no. The idea of a "feminist icon" is a little faulty anyway, but the idea that Katniss is vapid is just. . . no.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

female_fanboy
2012-07-05 02:06 pm UTC (link)

First of all, she is starving in District 12— her "delight" (which is mixed anyway) in the food at the Capitol is because she hasn't had enough to eat in years, perhaps ever. Any interest she has in pretty dresses are because she is desperate to get sponsors to help her survive.

I would believe this more if I hadn't read Catching Fire, where her response to the dinner party she was invited to (at a time when she'd been living comfortably on the Capitol's stipends for some time) is to excitedly exclaim, "I want to taste everything in the room," and her act of defiance upon discovering that Capitol people vomit up their food a la Rome is ... to eat a bit less so she can still achieve her goal of tasting everything in the room.

It's also the same book where the kids she killed get a small handful of lines compared to the numerous internal monologues about Peeta and how terrible she feels about not doing enough for him.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	kannaophelia 2012-07-05 07:16 am UTC (link)
	Did you get some special edited version taht teh rest of us missed out on? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kannaophelia 2012-07-05 07:16 am UTC (link)
	This is my day to be unable to type, obviously... (Reply to this)(Parent)

beccastareyes
2012-07-02 02:50 am UTC (link)

Well, you could maybe make some insightful comment about why female protagonists become princesses in some people's eyes even when they aren't or don't really have anything princess-y besides 'female' and 'girls root for them'. Maybe you could contrast Katniss's position as a symbol, or her leadership skills... but the last gets into 'why a princess, when we have many ways to call a man a leader?'.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	full_metal_ox 2012-07-03 10:44 pm UTC (link)
	From a cynical marketing standpoint, the princess image seems to be defined by reams of saleable little-girl bling; witness the princessification of a character who was originally conceived as something rather different. (Speaking of another arguable Artemis template, where are the Legend of Korra action figures?) (Reply to this)(Parent)

ekaterinv
2012-07-01 09:24 pm UTC (link)

Yep.

Plus the idea (and fact) of the warrior-princess and woman warrior has been common throughout history and place, and used in all sorts of ways, both feminist and anti-feminist and everything in between. Hippolyta, Tomoi, Jael, valkyries, Kali, Joan of Arc, Boudicea... I could probably fill the screen with names and groups before even getting to 20th and 21st century media.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	iczer6 2012-07-03 12:59 pm UTC (link)
	Agreed. I mean if Rapunzel was a prize it was to Mother Gothel, not Flynn who was more interested in what he stole but later came to like her as a person. And I don't think characters like Belle or Ariel were prizes even if they weren't Artemis-like. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

full_metal_ox
2012-07-03 10:31 pm UTC (link)

Agreed. I mean if Rapunzel was a prize it was to Mother Gothel, not Flynn who was more interested in what he stole but later came to like her as a person.

Commentators who'd rather have had Rapunzel cut off her own hair are, I think, missing an important point--that was Flynn's way of demonstrating definitively that--William Butler Yeats to the contrary--he loved her for herself alone and not for her yellow hair.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	iczer6 2012-07-03 11:02 pm UTC (link)
	He was willing to die to free her, which says a lot about how he viewed her and their relationship. (Reply to this)(Parent)

esclaramonde
2012-07-04 12:47 am UTC (link)

I think what it is that tends to get to me about people who do the "love trophy" thing is that in most of the cases, the female characters are the protagonists. (Aladdin is one of the few with a male main character, and I think Tangled is kind of half-and-half.) Maybe this is just IMO, but if you're the main character you inherently cannot be defined as an appendage to somebody else, because you exist for the purpose of telling the story and being the reader's/viewer's viewpoint. Some room for argument with Bella Swan and Anastasia "Not Bella" Wassername.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	iczer6 2012-07-04 01:00 am UTC (link)
	This. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ekaterinv 2012-07-04 03:01 am UTC (link)
	Yes, and some people seem to think if the story is or contains a love story between a woman and a man, it's automatically anti-feminist just on that basis alone. Because tropes. Very annoying. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sorchar 2012-07-04 06:27 am UTC (link)
	Dittoing the go see Brave statement. It's the movie I wish I'd had when I was a girl. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	spawn_of_kong 2012-07-05 12:00 pm UTC (link)
	It's so refreshing to see the usual "father and son at odds with each other go on an adventure together and come out the stronger for it" formula done with a mother and daughter. Not to say that other movies of this sort don't exist, but they're few and far between compared with the multitude of ones involving fathers and sons. (Reply to this)(Parent)