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	kadath 2005-07-15 03:20 am UTC (link)
	Your second link is b0rked. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	khym_chanur 2005-07-15 03:29 am UTC (link)
	D'oh! Fixed. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	bunny 2005-07-15 03:33 am UTC (link)
	I think jurisimprudence has a law or two about claiming "it was a joke and you're not getting it" and the abuse of calling something "sarcasm". Hope that helps. (Reply to this)

esorlehcar
2005-07-15 04:04 am UTC (link)

Hmmm. It seems like an unusually harsh response, though it's entirely possible she meant it as humor and it just didn't come across that way. Attempting deadpan in text can be a very, very bad idea.

That being said, with the caveat that I'm not a shipper of any kind when it comes to HP, I've never understood the number of people who claim the Hermione/Ron vibe, at the very least, isn't canon. Rowling has been unsubtly leaning in that direction since GoF. I get that people may not like it, or think it's a terrible idea, or even hate Rowling for going in that direction, but claiming it's not there baffles me. It's not even a matter of reading between the lines - it's in the lines. Repeatedly.

I don't know if it will be further developed in the final two books (though I'd lay quite good odds on it - she focused on it enough in the last two books that I can't imagine it will just fizzle out), but rereading GoF and OotP these last few weeks I find myself amazed that there's any discussion about it. Rowling isn't remotely subtle about it.

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	khym_chanur 2005-07-15 04:12 am UTC (link)
	Well, the only time I saw Hermione showing any interest back at Ron was when she Fleur hugged/kissed Ron for helping save her little sister from the lake (or something like that); everything seemed completely one sided on Ron's side. Maybe I just suck at picking up the romantic cues that are obvious to everyone else. shrug (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

esorlehcar
2005-07-15 04:37 am UTC (link)

No, you're right - with the exception of Hermione's comment after the Yule Ball and her annoyance at Fleur kissing Ron, all the really unsubtle stuff has been from Ron. I think the non-stop bickering, among other things, especially in the fifth book is fairly telling, but that's certainly arguable.

But we have multiple clear cases of jealousy on Ron's part and one on Hermione's, the "next time don't wait until the last minute to ask me" comment from Hermione and Harry's agreement with the sentiment, Hermione kissing Ron before his first Quidditch match and Ron reacting nearly exactly the same way Harry reacts when Cho first kisses him... like I said, it's possible Rowling isn't going anywhere this. I doubt it, but it's possible. But it's definitely there, and it's definitely there purposefully on Rowling's part. When Atanielle etc. claim that there isn't a single word to suggest that Ron or Hermione have anything beyond platonic feelings for each other and anyone who disagrees is delusional, I tend to wonder what books they're reading, because they're clearly not the ones issued to the rest of the universe.

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kannaophelia
2005-07-15 03:57 pm UTC (link)

Hardly even suggested jealousy ofn Hermione's part, let alone clear. Anyone who asked me to any kind of dance at the last moment would get short shrift, because, eh - fucking rude, much? Especially in Ron's "Oh, you're not attractive enough to have anyone else" way. I'd probably be far sharper than Hermione, without the need for any jealousy to be involved.

Ron, in short, is no gentleman. But that doesn't amount to authorial intention for a ship, just to Ron being a bogan dropkick.

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	esorlehcar 2005-07-15 04:05 pm UTC (link)
	There wasn't anything in the way of suggested jealousy at the dance, no. Hermione's reaction to Ron and Fleur, however, is a different story. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

kannaophelia
2005-07-15 04:11 pm UTC (link)

~grin~ For soem reason, I leapt to conclusions, as it seemed closer to being jealousy than the Fleur thing. Again, I wouldn't say that was jealousy but, again, Hermione reacting to Ron's aforesaid bogan dropkickness. Again, I would have reacted precisely the same way, out of sheer disgust rather than jealousy.

Ron is such a loser. A rather well-drawn teenage boy, in fact. ;)

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esorlehcar
2005-07-15 04:18 pm UTC (link)

She was angry, not rolling her eyes, which is her response to Harry's stupidity when it comes to girls, and which I think would be her response if she wasn't jealous. It's not as clear cut as Ron's jealousy, but I think it's obviously jealousy.

I like both Ron and Hermione (though, 3/4 of the way through OotP at the moment, I'm more than a little annoyed with Ron), but I can understand disliking either one, or thinking they'd make a terrible couple, or that Rowling is smoking crack to be throwing in crush overtones. I just can't understand the assertion that Rowling isn't throwing in any crush overtones.

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kannaophelia
2005-07-15 04:35 pm UTC (link)

Oh, it's easy enough to understand. In this case, the first step is also understanding that it's possible to be angry - as I would be - without it having anything to do with either hidden love or lust. It's not "obviously" jealousy; I'd go so far as to say it's not even likely jealousy, but a purely understandable reaction of an intelligent young woman to a friend behaving in an embarassingly crass way. Harry is never, ever as cringeingly bad as Ron, so reactions don't really compare.

Seriously, I do not see Ron/Hermione (or Harry/Hermione or Draco/Hermione or Ginny/Hermione or whatever the ship which also has reams of carefully presented "evidence"), or to be more precise, I don't see it without deliberately reading through shippy glasses. You see it: that's fine, but it doesn't mean there's any real authorial intention, or that people who don't see it are missing textual evidence. They're/we're simply not making the same decision to read it from a shippy standpoint. The assertion that it's all text and that Rowling can be mind-read to prove it is so isn't really supported by the books unless you read in ways inflected by shipping.

Which is... sure, ship to your heart's content if you enjoy it. Maybe it will be canon in future, maybe tomorrow, but it doesn't make it text now, or make the people who don't choose to read from a shippy standpoint blind. Myabe you see it that way because Hermione's reactions are consistent with how you'd react if you were jealous (and maybe not, i'm tired and blatehring), but my own interpretation is affected by my knowledge of how I react with people I have no attraction to whatsoever; Hermione's reaction is consistent with that. The text is equally open to being interpreted in either way, and there's no one correct reading outside ship evidence pages. It's kind of pointless to insist that one interpretation is right and correct and the shippers just know Rowling meant it that way.

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	esorlehcar 2005-07-15 04:49 pm UTC (link)
	The assertion that it's all text and that Rowling can be mind-read to prove it is so isn't really supported by the books unless you read in ways inflected by shipping. On that, we'll simply have to very much agree to disagree: I think the only way it the text can be read without seeing it is you are determined not to. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kannaophelia 2005-07-15 04:52 pm UTC (link)
	~shrug~ Until I'm presented with one mite of evidence that is any more convincing than that of any other ship, which hasn't come close to happening, I'll certainly stay disagreeing. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ataniell93
2005-07-15 07:53 pm UTC (link)

I think that's nuts. I don't like him, that I'll admit, but I just don't see her responses to his idiocies as showing any kind of reciprocation of his feelings. To me they look like she is actively trying to discourage them.

Now, admittedly--I was a girl who was frequently told things like, "he does that because he likes you," and I still don't get why guys act like that (my response was always, "if he's going to express it that way I wish he would like someone ELSE"), but I do get that when a girl wants to encourage a guy, she doesn't make a point of treating him exactly the same way as her other best male friend.

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	redmark 2005-07-16 04:07 am UTC (link)
	Wow, all this time I thought I was just consistently oblivious to romantic foreshadowing, and now it turns out I'm doing it on purpose! Thanks for enlightening me. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	esorlehcar 2005-07-16 04:16 am UTC (link)
	Delighted to help. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	apoplexia 2005-07-16 09:47 am UTC (link)
	I really hope these people never get a hold of Pride and Prejudice. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	esorlehcar 2005-07-16 02:59 pm UTC (link)
	snicker (Reply to this)(Parent)

	redmark 2005-07-16 11:18 am UTC (link)
	Much obliged. Any chance I could find out anything else I thought I didn't really care all that much about but am actually putting in the energy to continually consciously deny? Or is this just a once-off that only afflicts people reading things for reasons other than anyone hooking up? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ataniell93 2005-07-15 07:56 pm UTC (link)
	Ron is the kind of guy who ends up at the bar wondering loudly why women don't want 'the nice guy'. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	atalantapendrag 2005-07-16 12:54 am UTC (link)
	...and now I've got Ron-as-Chandler-Bing (shut up, my exhusband was hooked on that damn show, not me) stuck in my head. My scary, crowded head. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	kannaophelia 2005-07-16 01:18 am UTC (link)
	♥ And posting whiny screeds to feminists about it. Ron makes me go all ocker. I'd never normally use the word "bogan", but oh, he calls for it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	iczer6 2005-07-16 07:59 am UTC (link)
	That's pretty dead on IMO. Sad thing is that I do think that he's got a lot of potential. He just needs to remove his head from rump and lose the entitlement complex, then I think he could be a decent boyfriend. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ataniell93
2005-07-15 07:49 pm UTC (link)

"Next time don't wait till the last minute to ask me" never sounded to me like someone who liked him back. It sounded like someone who was insulted at the assumption that:

a) she wouldn't be able to get a date (because she's such a bookworm and prig and all the other things he calls her);

b) she would be so desperate to go because of this that she wouldn't mind being his eighty-seventh choice;

c) she wouldn't expect any kind of tact in asking, either.

I totally agree that ever since the Yule Ball (when he finally figured out that there were two genders and she was the other one) he's been sort of crushing over her, but I never saw any evidence that she had any kind of feeling back.

I never said he showed no interest in her.

Just that she's doing a lot of things that show she doesn't return it.

Another thing I think is telling is that she made such a point of giving him a businesslike Christmas present, and one that was exactly the same as Harry's. If I and/or most of my female friends were to do that to a guy who was openly crushing on her, the message intended would be: "Cut it out. I think of you two in exactly the same way, and it's not with my vibrator on."

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	redmark 2005-07-15 04:05 am UTC (link)
	Well, obviously it wasn't like she was being sarcastic or anything. Maybe this person thinks being sarcastic is a greater crime than random insults to anyone who doesn't see the world in exactly the same light. Or am I being too generous? (Reply to this)

	restlesshands 2005-07-15 04:22 am UTC (link)
	I think the answer we're looking for here is that the OP is an asshole. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	apoplexia 2005-07-15 06:55 am UTC (link)
	dingdingding We have a winner! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	restlesshands 2005-07-15 06:57 am UTC (link)
	Woo! Do I get an intarweb? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	phosfate 2005-07-15 02:36 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, but only one. And you can't exchange it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	restlesshands 2005-07-15 03:26 pm UTC (link)
	Fair enough. Can I sell it on ebay? .......Wait....crap. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	annabelle_lee 2005-07-15 08:19 am UTC (link)
	Asshole works well, but I was thinking more along the lines of 'humorless cunt'. Ah well. You win. :D (Reply to this)(Parent)