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Caito Potato ([info]caito) wrote in [info]fandom_lounge,
@ 2008-08-25 10:43:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:twilight lounge

Twilight, for serious business
Is anyone interested in having a serious discussion in regards to Twilight? I kind of want to get my think on.

For example, I wondered whether there were any major black characters, or, more specifically, I wondered whether there were any black vampires, considering they're always described as pale and whatever. I haven't read the books and don't want to, but my twinno's plodding through, and of the first eighty pages, she says

Also, I don't really consider myself a postcolonialist, but all the frickin' whiteness in this novel is bugging me. I understand it takes place in a town with very little sun, but it describes everyone as either "pale" or "porcelain" or "chalky." And it really bothers me that the whitest people of all (the vampires) are also the most beautiful of all. I really really really hope that that was unintentional, and not at all supposed to be correlative.
Also I want to talk about how the pro-abstinence message appeals to parents, yet they completely miss the "leave your parents forever to be with the boy you love!" bit, though I guess the totally-happy-ending in Breaking Dawn renders that null and void anyway.

(Post a new comment)


[info]cleolinda
2008-08-25 02:59 am UTC (link)
In the fourth book, vampires come in from all over--Egypt and the Amazon, for example. But their skin isn't described, interestingly enough. And Zafrina the Amazon is kind of awesome, and yet... she's wearing animal skins. Because that's what the savages wear, you know.

There's also the Quileutes (some of whom turn into wolves) on the reservation, so not everybody's white. It's just co-opting a real group of people (non-white, at that) to become animals brings up another set of issues entirely.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]caito
2008-08-25 03:03 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I realized that Jacob was a Native American, but I got the impression that rather than actually research this particular Native American culture (for example, by talking to elders), she just kind of took what she found on the internet and co-opted it into her story.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2008-08-25 03:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2008-08-25 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2008-08-25 03:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-25 03:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]calystarose, 2008-08-25 05:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bienegold, 2008-08-25 06:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-25 06:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ellensmithee, 2008-08-25 07:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]julian_black, 2008-08-25 09:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-25 11:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]julian_black, 2008-08-25 10:10 pm UTC

[info]kadath
2008-08-25 03:03 am UTC (link)
Yes, Meyer has funky race issues on top of everything else. The prominent PoC are the werewolves, who are the "Noble Savage" stereotype nearly to the point of parody, and it's clear Meyer did no research at all about the tribes of the PNW before pasting her crappy made-up culture onto them.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]sepiamagpie
2008-08-25 03:20 am UTC (link)
And isn't the person playing the native guy in the movies like... white?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2008-08-25 03:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2008-08-25 03:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2008-08-25 03:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2008-08-25 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2008-08-25 03:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kittikattie, 2008-08-25 03:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2008-08-25 03:46 am UTC
(no subject) - iwanttobeasleep, 2008-08-25 04:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tarash, 2008-08-25 09:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2008-08-25 03:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2008-08-25 03:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2008-08-25 03:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]judyhazeleyes, 2008-08-26 12:24 am UTC

[info]charmian
2008-08-25 03:42 am UTC (link)
As much as I hate to, I have to defend Meyer on this: she clearly did do at least some research on the Quileute. It seems that human-wolf transformation is part of Quileute legends. See
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<a [...] http://www.quileutenation.org/index.cfm?page>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

As much as I hate to, I have to defend Meyer on this: she clearly did do at least some research on the Quileute. It seems that human-wolf transformation is part of Quileute legends. See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quileute_(tribe)#Beliefs#>here</a> and <a href="http://www.quileutenation.org/index.cfm?page=history.html">here</a>.

In the last book, also, there is a passage where the characters talk about how the werewolves didn't have to be wolves, but could have also transformed into other animals, and discuss how there are real European werewolves, known as the 'Children of the Moon.'

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2008-08-25 04:09 am UTC
(no subject) - iwanttobeasleep, 2008-08-25 04:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bienegold, 2008-08-25 06:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-25 06:56 am UTC
(no subject) - iwanttobeasleep, 2008-08-25 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-25 02:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-25 04:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2008-08-25 10:27 am UTC

[info]charmian
2008-08-25 03:28 am UTC (link)
Here's a post about the portrayal of Indians in the books, written by someone who is herself Indian.

http://minisinoo.livejournal.com/436002.html?style=mine

Minisinoo has also created a comm on LJ for discussion of Indian issues related to Twilight.

http://community.livejournal.com/twilight_ndnz/

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]platedlizard
2008-08-25 09:44 pm UTC (link)
Are fireworks mentioned in Twilight? Admittedly my knowledge of the Washington tribes is spotty at best, but everyone in the PWN knows that if you want really goodillegal fireworks you head out to the Olympic/Puget Sound reservations. It's something of a major industry during certain times of the year.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]r_a_black
2008-08-25 05:26 am UTC (link)
I think there's one black vampire mentioned in the Volturri. Jane, I think, though I may be totally wrong on this.

(Reply to this)


[info]bobafeis
2008-08-25 07:02 am UTC (link)
As for the second bit, I feel your pain. All the moms of my little dance students are twimoms. Most of them seem to be too caught up in their fantasizing to think about the message it's sending their daughters, or to even see the message at all. I don't know... it's like they're so happy to see that there's something they can enjoy with their daughters that they're looking for the good bits (No sex before marriage, y'hear?! Only dry humping!) and ignoring the bad (everything else, I suppose).

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]caito
2008-08-25 02:55 pm UTC (link)
It's like losing the forest for the trees, or however that saying goes. Sure, there's no sex until marriage, but there's a lot of "put your man first in your life, what you want is not nearly as important as what he thinks is best for you."

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]msmanna, 2008-08-25 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bobafeis, 2008-08-25 06:51 pm UTC

[info]puipui
2008-08-25 10:23 am UTC (link)
I understand it takes place in a town with very little sun

AAAAAAAAGH! IT'S NOT LIKE LIVING UNDERGROUND, STEPHANIE! IT'S NOT LIKE WINTER IN ALASKA! IT ONLY GETS A FEW INCHES OF RAIN A MONTH IN SUMMERTIME! GRR, ARGH!

I'm sorry, sometimes that just has to come out. And in related news, I've just read that Stephanie Meyer never set foot in Forks until after Twilight was published. I'm not surprised.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]atreyu
2008-08-25 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Aaargh please Meyer come to my hometown. I'll show you very little sun after an entire summer full of it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


iwanttobeasleep
2008-08-25 06:16 pm UTC (link)
She could have at least Weather.comed it a few times. Or used Earth logic to realize places like that don't tend to exist.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2008-08-25 06:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hearsawho, 2008-08-26 09:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonscrawl, 2008-08-26 12:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2008-08-26 08:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2008-08-25 09:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2008-08-25 11:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - kroki_refur, 2008-08-25 11:11 pm UTC

[info]caito
2008-08-26 06:19 am UTC (link)
She should have set the story in Akita prefecture, Japan. It's ridiculously overcast and snowy in the winter (usually), and in the summer people cover up their skin almost religiously (wearing gloves that nearly reach their shoulder just to ride their bike to the grocery store) so that Akita has a big (and well-earned) rep for having the palest (and therefore "prettiest") ladies in all of the land.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]caito
2008-08-25 03:23 pm UTC (link)
I called home and asked my mother what my teenage sisters were reading, and she said, "Oh, I don't know, some stupid vampire romance book." But she refuses to buy them the second book because they're about vampires. (My mother wouldn't let my siblings read Harry Potter until I read them first and guaranteed they contained no Satanism, so... that's my mom!)

I told her not to buy the second book because they're problematic in other ways, so she won't. But my kid sisters will probably still borrow the books from friends. I don't want them to not read them, I just want them to read them and realize they are far from perfect. I don't even mind if they like them so long as they don't look at them as the paragon of awesomeness. I mean, I like Bollywood b-movies and Japanese boy bands, so I'm far from an arbiter of taste, and we all deserve our guilty pleasures, so.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]tofuknight
2008-08-25 06:03 pm UTC (link)
You've sort of hit on what bothers me most about the whole Twilight phenomenon. It's not that people like it or go fan-crazy about it, but that people seem to be missing a lot of the very disturbing and problematic abuse and misogyny themes and in fact thinking they're ok and good to teach to children. And while a lot of things actually do that (chunks of tv and culture, to different extents), the TwiMoms promoting these to their daughters makes me uncomfortable, since it's sort of saying "Here! Idolize this misogynistic emotionally abusive boyfriend and think of yourself that way!". And that's gross.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-26 06:25 am UTC

[info]cmdr_zoom
2008-08-25 07:59 pm UTC (link)
One would hope they would eventually grow out of it (as we do with most other Stupid Teenage Bullshit), possibly after being burned by a RL unhealthy relationship or two (unfortunate, but life is full of Learning Experiences like that). But the Twilight Moms are an extremely vocal example that not all do. Most, perhaps *crosses fingers* ... but not all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-26 06:26 am UTC

[info]caito
2008-08-27 12:52 am UTC (link)
So, I was really bothered by my mother saying what she did about Twilight, because she never censored books when I was younger (I recall her being uneasy about some of our choices, but preferred to discuss mature themes with us rather than tell us to stop reading). So I called her up again and was like, "What's up with that? Vampire books are okay. Besides, Dracula was required reading for me in high school."

And she was like, "Ah, I was trying to be funny. Really what I meant was that I didn't want to spend 24 bucks on a stupid vampire book when your sisters can just go to the library."

And then I got to talk to my teenage sisters on the phone. The older one read the first one but said it wasn't that great and had no interest in the rest. The younger one might continue, which I said was cool, as long as she kept some things in mind about fiction...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]snacky
2008-08-25 06:36 pm UTC (link)
Is anyone interested in having a serious discussion in regards to Twilight?

I haven't read the books and don't want to

Not to be snarky, but how do you have a serious discussion of the source text if you haven't read it?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]bobafeis
2008-08-25 07:20 pm UTC (link)
I read snarky as snacky and wondered how you were going to pull that off. Yay, reading comprehension.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]phosfate
2008-08-25 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Sparklynotes?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

HTML fail
[info]caito
2008-08-25 11:27 pm UTC (link)
I did it all the time in English courses in college Er.

Alright, you got me. I actually wanted to give people a starting point and watch them discuss.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]caito
2008-08-25 11:47 pm UTC (link)
P.S. You don't seem snarky because you're right. I'm obtaining the books now and will spend this week reading them. Oh lordy...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-27 01:03 am UTC

[info]janegraddell
2008-08-25 06:51 pm UTC (link)
It really bothers me that the books are being touted as a positive role model for abstinence/no-sex-before-marriage etc. If a person wants to wait for marriage, great. Go for it. It's not a bad idea.

But the message that seems to be driven home in the Twilight books is that you should jump into marriage because your hormones will drive you to have sex, and marriage is the only way to cope with those feelings without being Wrong.

Give me Harry's chest monster any day.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shallow_kid, 2008-08-25 10:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-26 06:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nekoneko, 2008-08-26 01:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ellensmithee, 2008-08-26 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]squeakthemouse, 2008-08-25 11:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]supersyncspaz7, 2008-08-26 03:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mireille, 2008-08-26 03:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seraphtrevs, 2008-08-25 11:43 pm UTC

[info]emiweebee
2008-08-25 10:45 pm UTC (link)
I started Midnight Sun, and at one point Edward clearly indicates all vampires have icy (in color, texture, and temperature) skin. That said, there is also clearly diversity - he's got reddish brown hair, Tanya's got strawberry blonde hair. You could write off what Edward said as him being a dumb white vampire who doesn't really think/care about vampires of color.

Since white vampires get whiter, perhaps we can imply that dark vampires get darker? Or deeper? But that requires going off SMeyer's explicit (crappy) worldmaking.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]caito, 2008-08-25 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]emiweebee, 2008-08-26 12:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bitca, 2008-08-26 06:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sithwitch13, 2008-08-26 01:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]feenix, 2008-08-26 02:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]clover_elf_kin, 2008-08-26 08:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2008-08-26 09:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2008-08-29 02:43 am UTC

  
   
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