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livii
2009-01-10 08:48 pm UTC (link)

Have you read the post? It's full of people leaping to wild conclusions that since LJ didn't give severance/notice, they must be omg going out of business right now and/or people are saying they must have broken the law somehow.

I, too, think no severance or notice is shitty behaviour, but that doesn't equal LJ having done anything actually wrong by not doing it. The number of people in that post who are upset because it seems shitty but also understand that LJ didn't actually do anything wrong is extremely, vanishingly, small. And it pisses me off, 'k?

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	ladybirdsleeps 2009-01-10 11:02 pm UTC (link)
	I read the first three pages. What I saw was a bunch of people protesting shitty behavior, and another bunch of people going "LOL MORONS IT'S TOTALLY LEGAL," because they totally missed the point. LJ having done anything actually wrong by not doing it. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ILLEGAL TO BE WRONG. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rennyn_alerothi 2009-01-10 11:51 pm UTC (link)
	This. So this. I got the feeling that the "LOL MORONS" folk were totally in "OMG SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET" mode and stopped reading after page 4. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	livii 2009-01-11 12:08 am UTC (link)
	Okay! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ashenmote 2009-01-11 01:07 am UTC (link)
	First confused about the usage of "wrong", then confused about the usage of "okay". Figures. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

rennyn_alerothi
2009-01-11 01:10 am UTC (link)

I was gonna say. Judging from this wank, there are a lot of ElJay users who have never been laid off with no warning and no severance before, and who therefore don't grasp exactly how shitty that is. As someone in the tech industry who has just watched half my friends wind up in that situation, and who might still end up there myself (again) I'm a little inclined towards sympathy for those in a similar spot at this point.

/Thoughts on yaoi/layoffs

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	ashenmote 2009-01-11 01:42 am UTC (link)
	Plus, if one assumes a "It's a man's world" stance concerning instant lay offs, I'm sure one can assume the same stance regarding dogpiles and Fail macros and In-Soviet-Russia Memes in a frigging News Post. (Reply to this)(Parent)

livii
2009-01-11 03:11 am UTC (link)

I'd reallllly like someone to point at people who aren't saying it's shitty. I think it's shitty, and have said so on this very post. I have friends in the tech industry who are seeing their coworkers laid off and may be laid off themselves next week. No one's hiring either, so it fucking blows.

I have reams of sympathy. I'm still not going to claim that (take your pick) LJ/SUP acted illegally; by not giving severance that means LJ doesn't have the cash to keep LJ running; that in an at-will employment state during a nation-wide recession that's crunching that industry in particular anyone can reasonably expect severance pay when it's not required at law.

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rennyn_alerothi
2009-01-11 03:33 am UTC (link)

I'd reallllly like someone to point at people who aren't saying it's shitty.

Have you even looked at the post that we're commenting to? Go ahead, I'll wait.

I'm not saying that they acted illegally, or panicking that LJ is about to run out of cash, or anything. I'm saying that it's shitty, and the folks on the post that's linked to this one who are saying, "THAT'S LIFE IN OUR ECONOMY SUCK IT UP LOSERS LOLOLOLOLOL" are pissing me the hell off.

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livii
2009-01-11 03:51 am UTC (link)

I've been through 16 pages now, for some masochistic reason, sigh. And I think we're at crosspurposes, sorry, but what I meant was no one there is revelling in people losing their jobs (well, I left a few threads alone, but hopefully some total asshats don't define the whole); I have some sympathy for the argument that it wasn't shitty of SUP to not give severance, though, because of the legal argument and the current times. I don't like the way it was addressed by those folks (the baaawwwers are morons), and I don't agree that it actually was the right thing for SUP to do, but it's a pretty reasonable argument on some fronts.

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	livii 2009-01-11 03:07 am UTC (link)
	Okay! (Reply to this)(Parent)

ladybirdsleeps
2009-01-12 01:32 am UTC (link)

... why, yes, if you use "okay!" against someone who has a good point, it totes means that they don't have a good point anymore and that you win. You can pat yourself on the back.

But let's do this real quick. Since you said "okay!" and that means you win, obviously that means that I missed a lot of people who were confusing shitty with illegal. So I reread all of the top-level comments on the first three pages to find them.

- Says that LJ treated its employees poorly and that that doesn't bode well for how it will treat its customers.

- Asks why employees were "terminated so suddenly without any severance."

- Asks about the lack of severance. The reply simply says that no severance doesn't fly.

- Says that no severance isn't the proper way to do it.

- Says that no severance and "valued team member" are at odds.

- Same as the above, from a dev volunteer.

- Just asks why there was no severance or warning.

- Says that they won't continue their paid account if the rumors of no severance and no notice are true.

- Another volunteer who is bothered by how the employees were laid off. Tells SUP to "stay classy."

Not a single person saying that what LJ did was illegal. I MUST BE BLIND. Maybe it's on page 4!

- Complains about specific firings, and about the lack of severance and notice in general.

- Doesn't like the management speak about "restructuring" and doesn't like no severance or no pay.

- Says the deal seemed pretty cold.

- Oh, finally - THERE'S one of those people you said were protesting the deal because they're anti-Russian. I had begun to think they were creatures of myth.

But still no one complaining that LJ is breaking the law. Clearly, since you said "okay!", it must be there, but I'm afraid I just am too blind to see it.

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	turante 2009-01-13 05:00 pm UTC (link)
	I think I'm kind of in love with you for this comment. (Reply to this)(Parent)

ariadne484
2009-01-11 01:03 am UTC (link)

The number of people in that post who are upset because it seems shitty but also understand that LJ didn't actually do anything wrong is extremely, vanishingly, small.

That might be because you seem to have defined anyone who disagrees with LJ's actions as, one, not understanding that legality and ethicality don't necessarily coincide, and two, anti-Russian. As if everyone would have cheered the layoffs if Six Apart had done them, or something.

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livii
2009-01-11 03:13 am UTC (link)

But most people on that post are conflating legality and ethicality - it's happening right below, as well, as if anyone in their right mind wouldn't feel bad for folks who are laid off! It's kind of incredible. The legality isn't really the big point here, but it is important because people are jumping to wild conclusions about the future of LJ based on misunderstanding it.

The amount of anti-Russian expression in that post, as well, is shocking, and making me so angry I really shouldn't be posting here anymore...

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weaselistic
2009-01-11 09:24 am UTC (link)

The amount of anti-Russian expression in that post, as well, is shocking, and making me so angry I really shouldn't be posting here anymore...

I'm annoyed by that, too. These users expect to be informed in advance and in detail of every business decision that LJ are considering. At the same time, they throw racist insults at them.

On the one hand, they're demanding that LJ keep up the ~we're all friends and equal~ spirit, not think of itself as a business and be extra-nice to its employees and users, on the other hand... "FUCK RUSSIA", "I for one blame the Russians for this", "But It is kind of funny that the russians cut the gas supply of from Europe and now they come her and fire AMERICANS and claim that the design stuff is being moved to MOSCOW. Hello, it is the capital of RUSSIA. COMMUNISTIC REDS NOW RUN AMERICA!!!!!" and more.
That's not going to work!

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	iwanttobeasleep 2009-01-11 04:25 am UTC (link)
	In what world is "shitty behaviour" not "actually wrong"? Sure, illegal is one thing, but firing someone without notice or severance, especially when you could afford it (not saying they could, but just saying), is actually wrong. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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