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m_butterfly
2009-02-10 11:06 am UTC (link)

I'm redoing an entire comment here because I rethought several things, so my apologies for the multiple replies in your inbox:

When we talk about how much the series improves, that attitude--and honestly, I can't remember many specifics about Storm Front; I literally can't reread it because the quality hurts too much, but I know what you're talking about because it's there in the other first books--is a part of the improvement.

Now, there is a constant theme of joking about misogyny in the books that some people might find inherently misogynistic. I personally don't. If the series had contained both that joking and female characters who then seemed to bear it out, I probably would have, but there are some of the most consistently competent and well-done female characters, in a variety of types, I've seen in an ongoing series like this. With a single exception, female characters who initially seem more shallow or poorly-done become better fleshed out and more impressive as the series goes on, to the point where my first reaction to this comment was, "Dear god, Murph's going to kick their ass."

However, in Fool Moon and Grave Peril there is still a problem with that. But it really is very much Harry's problem, and one of his important pieces of character development is getting over it, learning to stop trying to "protect" people--women particularly--by shunting them off to the side and taking away their knowledge and therefor their power. It is a character flaw of his. Impressively, it's a character flaw that gets fixed: part of the reason why I support Summer Knight as a starting place is that's where he starts to fix it, where he finally sits Murphy down and explains what the full stakes are and lets her make knowing choices, which in her case generally end up being "So I'm gonna take out the monster with a chainsaw okay?"

It's one of the major turning points in the series from a character standpoint, because... yeah. Harry in the first three books pretty much is an asshole. It makes rereads more painful, but it also makes them more interesting as well, because real, solid character development in an ongoing series like this has an unfortunate tendency to fall by the wayside, or be more in the way of "distortion". So I can't blame Butcher for that jerkishness, even though I suspect it was less planned and more a beautiful improvisation. But hell, there's something to be said for that.

So if that was a serious problem with you and you do want to try again, go with Summer Knight, wherein Murphy kills monsters with a chainsaw.

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	waltraute 2009-02-10 04:32 pm UTC (link)
	That's one of the things I actually liked from the get-go, because it gave me the feeling that he had somewhere to go, and then I hit Summer Knight and he's sitting around sulking and being a bitch and then gets kicked out of it, and it was such a relief to see a main character admit to his obvious flaws. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

m_butterfly
2009-02-10 10:10 pm UTC (link)

Honestly, as much as I love the action and the comedy, one of the best damn scenes in the whole series might be in White Night when Murphy calls him on how he's been acting lately, he starts to instinctively blast her down, and then he takes a second and realizes she's right. And takes steps to correct it.

I just really love the way the characters grow and change. I've used Charity as a pimping example a couple of times because of it, because she's a great example of both the character themselves developing and Harry's relationship and thus perceptions of the character developing. Doing a first-person POV like this can be really tricky because of that, and so far he's doing beautifully.

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ecchaniz0r
2009-02-10 11:03 pm UTC (link)

Yes.

i was VERY impressed with the way Butcher handled Harry's issues with women. They're treated as issues - it's a character flaw and an honestly-depicted one, it DOES cause problems, and Harry eventually picks up the clue phone.

There was one scene in the book with Thomas's asshat father that made me kind of clench my fists and go, "Butcher, if you fuck up Murphy's character *voice of death metal* I WILL END YOU." And he doesn't. There is no fridge shit. Murphy and Harry's respective recoveries from bad shit are treated equally; Murph is not 'weaker' because she's the one with the boobs and in fact, to me, she's drawn as the more mentally healthy of the two because she doesn't repress things and try to be the epic hero all the time. Murph is all "oh that fucking SUCKED back there" and admits that the suckage affected her; Harry tries to be all stoic and fails and has to be whapped a bit before he'll admit that he's hurt, or in need of aid.

Aaaand wow I'm rambling a lot. But - yes. Butcher's not fridging Murphy or treating her problems as lesser and saying she's only so deeply affected 'cuz because she's ~*the chick*~ makes me happy. Because damn is that hard to find. D:

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	waltraute 2009-02-11 12:18 am UTC (link)
	And something that looks like it could have possibly been a fridging (Justine) turns out to be more complicated and pop back up. (Reply to this)(Parent)

m_butterfly
2009-02-11 12:30 am UTC (link)

Oh yeah, I remember that scene and my own fears, but he rocked it perfectly. And I'm also really pleased by his handling of the inevitable UST between the two of them: they acknowledged it was there, they thought about it, and then they decided not to. And they actually appear to be getting over it and moving on. I can't think of another author who has done that. It's wonderful.

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	waltraute 2009-02-11 12:33 am UTC (link)
	And! Murphy had her vacation with Kincaid, it was clearly implied that they romped around, and she's not ashamed or traumatized or anything bad about it, either. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	m_butterfly 2009-02-11 12:39 am UTC (link)
	And that she's gotten more involved than she intended to actually makes perfect sense for her character. (And the weird thing is, Kincaid, Ivy, and Murphy would make a good little family unit. Hell, that's part of his attractiveness for her: here is a man who is never going to expect her to be any less than an equal warrior.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	waltraute 2009-02-11 12:41 am UTC (link)
	Since we're just talking shop now, do you think that he'll have Murphy accept the Job Offer, eventually? It's been built into her imagery already--Harry's Sight sees her as a paladin, and she seems back on the upswing, too. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

m_butterfly
2009-02-11 12:50 am UTC (link)

I think it's more or less inevitable, especially with what seems to be happening to SI. If they kill that department, it'll put Murphy in the horrible position of having to decide if she should follow the letter of her oath, and stay a cop, or follow the spirit of it, and take up the offer. Of course, given the nature of what we're taking about, that kind of thing can't possibly be an auspicious beginning, but it's about consistent for the foreshadowing of Bad Things and Turmoil we've got going.

Also, I feel like I should know this, but are you on LJ? (Someone out there who is presumably not you is probably very confused about this filemouse person who has friended them.)

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waltraute
2009-02-11 03:46 am UTC (link)

I need to re-read (but not right now, must write other sorts of things), but yeah--I'm wondering if next book is really going to be shit-->fan or a little more gaining of ground for the good guys. The network of alliances forming is very interesting, although I just can't quite get into the Harry/Marcone slash that seems to be a fan favorite. (You have to love how much Butcher knows and tweaks fandom with all of the Harry and Thomas jokes.)

(info posted over in my journal thar)

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	waltraute 2009-02-11 12:16 am UTC (link)
	Who is excited to see Morgan next book? \o_ \o_? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	m_butterfly 2009-02-11 12:27 am UTC (link)
	Oh god. I have been excited for it since the last one came out, and I meandered onto his website and saw the one-sentence teaser for Turn Coat. I damn near crawled through my screen and begged to be one of his editors. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	waltraute 2009-02-11 12:29 am UTC (link)
	Inorite? Because here is another long-awaited case of two characters finally figuring out what the other one is about, and hopefully getting together to kick some ass. I think we talked about this you-know-where when it came out... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

m_butterfly
2009-02-11 12:35 am UTC (link)

And he's gonna resolve the traitor plot, or at least make some headway. That's actually another point that impresses me about the series, to the extent that I just read someone complaining about it and was confused. Stuff gets resolved to a positively breath-taking degree for an ongoing series like this.

The trend is usually to never actually fix situations, or to "fix" them in such a way that you wind up right back in them again. (I'm looking at you, David Weber.) Butcher has honestly resolved several things and is working on doing everything else in solid increments. I mean, we've finally got some hard data on what makes Harry so goddamned special and I for one didn't expect to get that for another several books at the least.

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	waltraute 2009-02-11 12:37 am UTC (link)
	My personal selling point for this series has been "Continuity? This has it!" (Reply to this)(Parent)

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