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puel does not sleep. she waits. ([info]churri) wrote in [info]fandom_lounge,
@ 2009-10-23 20:30:00


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Saying Yes! A Sex-Positive Art- and Ficbitathon
I figure this is as good of a place for promotion as any, so here goes!

So on Ye Olde LJ, I'm running Saying Yes!, a sex-positive art- and ficbitathon. Our first round will begin on January 4, 2010, and conclude on January 18. We're running the challenge in prompt-tree format (further explanation here and here, and more examples and demonstrations will follow) in order to give participants the most flexibility in what prompts they'd like to work with, and how detailed they want those prompts to be.

Saying Yes! is a challenge designed to showcase characters who like sex, enjoy sex, and want sex -- characters fully capable of giving informed consent, and giving it enthusiastically. It's about characters who don't view sex or any of its aspects as something demeaning or shameful and don't pass similar value judgments on their partners' choices. There are a lot of stories out there, both fanfic and published, where characters enjoy sex despite themselves, and where a character who takes on a certain role or performs certain behaviors during sex is thought of as weaker or lesser. Sex and sex roles become imposed rather than sought out, and desire is passive, the result of things done to a character rather than things a character actively seeks out and wants.

In contrast, stories and art for Saying Yes! show how being the submissive or bottoming partner during sex is FUN and not demeaning -- and that bottoming and submission are far from the same thing. In these creative works, characters shout "Yes!" instead of "No!," and characters can get up to all kinds of kinky crazy fun without ever being made to feel shamed for their desires.

To lead up to the challenge, I'm hosting a feature on the community called UNDONE SUNDAYS. Every other Sunday, I'll make a post in this journal that's somehow related to Saying Yes! and its aims, and that'll let you guys jump in on the discussion, too. Whether it's sharing links to sex-positive websites/blogs/writing/fic/organizations/toy stores/etc., holding flashficathons or round-robin writing events, or simply swapping stories, there's going to be something fun to do. Participating in these posts is hardly mandatory, but they'll be there for anyone who's online and feels like joining in.

I hope you'll consider participating in this challenge, or cheering our participants on when this goes live. We need as many yeses as we can muster, after all.


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[info]notjo
2009-10-24 05:49 am UTC (link)
I'm tired, and I did spend all day thinking about this. I get the impression from this that people find fandom to be sex-negative, and I'm not sure why that would be. Do you have time/energy to explain that for me?

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[info]churri
2009-10-24 07:29 am UTC (link)
It's not that fandom itself is sex-negative, necessarily; it's that fandom reflects the mores of the people who participate in it, and I'd wager that most of us have grown up seeing sex depicted as something dirty, and -- especially if you're a woman -- almost a transgressive act. And when we write fic, we bring that social baggage along with us. Interestingly enough, a recent post on Metafandom seems to be making similar observations to the ones I've been making, and I think she comes from a different fannish angle than I do (I'm primarily in anime/manga fandom, which has its own subset of sexuality issues, particularly having to do with lack of consent being normalized; I think she's in SGA?). To me, that suggests that there still is a lot of discomfort with sex floating around, whether or not fans are cognizant of it. They probably aren't, most of the time, but these kinds of cultural institutions are hard to shake. So I'm doing my best to shake them, when and where I can.

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[info]microclimate
2009-10-24 11:27 am UTC (link)
You know... I have extreme issues with that post. I understand not liking sex-negative attitudes, but going on about those vile evil stupid naive people because they haven't reached the level of ~sexual enlightenment~ you'd like them to kinda defeats he purpose of the argument (and makes you, general you, look like an asshole).

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[info]pyratejenni
2009-10-24 03:53 pm UTC (link)
And has serious overtones of protesting too much.

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[info]rosehiptea
2009-10-24 04:59 pm UTC (link)
Wow, I agree about that post.

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[info]blue_penguin
2009-10-24 07:27 pm UTC (link)
Thanks; I was wondering if I was the only one who found that kind of rubbed them the wrong way.

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[info]microclimate
2009-10-24 11:39 pm UTC (link)
And it looks like that SP isn't much interested in talking to those who disagree with her, so!

I'll just toodle along over here.

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[info]microclimate
2009-10-24 11:40 pm UTC (link)
...OP. OP.

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[info]microclimate
2009-10-24 11:39 pm UTC (link)
(Also, re: your icon. If I haven't been spending today feeling like shit at work I've been level grinding my brains out in Persona 2: IS. FUN SATURDAY IS FUN.)

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[info]blue_penguin
2009-10-25 04:46 am UTC (link)
Ahaha, the level-grinding. ALWAYS FUN TIMES. Though somehow I keep playing Persona games anyway...

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[info]microclimate
2009-10-25 04:47 am UTC (link)
Because they're like pixilated crack, yes?

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[info]blue_penguin
2009-10-25 04:54 am UTC (link)
Pretty much! Though perhaps a bit less expensive I say, as I contemplate buying a PSP just for the P1 port and P3P when it comes out.

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[info]microclimate
2009-10-25 04:56 am UTC (link)
Gurl, the only reason why I haven't bought a PSP yet is because I haven't found a copy of SMT: Persona.

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[info]blue_penguin
2009-10-25 05:16 am UTC (link)
Well, at least it's not just me, then!

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[info]hallidae
2009-10-24 09:05 pm UTC (link)
Adding to the agreement chorus.

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[info]lady_ganesh
2009-10-27 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Total agreement. And that post, like so many others, seems to not separate 'kink' from 'sexuality' from 'stuff that's only acceptable in fic.' I have in fact used "Oh, I'm going to hell," and I don't consider this much of a flaw in my characters, just me expressing my discomfort with, say, the fact I'm writing about a preteen prostitute. Sometimes discomfort is okay.

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[info]lady_ganesh
2009-10-27 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Character, not characters. Erg.

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[info]octopedingenue
2009-11-01 11:05 pm UTC (link)
As you know, Bob, child sex trafficking is despicable. In other news, that preteen prostitute fic of yours was awesome! (The Kamisama drabble, right?)

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[info]lady_ganesh
2009-11-02 01:08 am UTC (link)
That would be the one!

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[info]octopedingenue
2009-11-02 01:19 am UTC (link)
Honestly, any Nii-fic (let alone Nii/Kamisama) that's not going to send me to hell is probably Doing It Wrong.

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[info]lady_ganesh
2009-11-07 04:56 am UTC (link)
Good point.

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[info]kuromitsu
2009-10-24 12:28 pm UTC (link)
Okay, so there's something I've never understood. Maybe it's a cultural issue or maybe I misunderstand something (which is very likely), but... why does the majority of fandom insist on calling the person on the receiving end of a dick "submissive"? Even here, you have a project celebrating freedom and fun in sex, but you still use the terminology of dominance/submissiveness. I mean, yes, sex can be about power and a relationship can have power imbalances that also manifest in who puts what into whom, but even in fandom that's not always the case... (And then authors overcompensate and turn reserved, well-mannered characters into agressive, filthy-mouthed piles of OOC so they won't seem "submissive" when they bottom.)

Anyway, I applaud anything that goes against the notion that being on bottom is, by default, depowering and demeaning/emasculating. (Kinks aside. Because my experience is that in many cases dubcon, characters enjoying sex despite themselves, etc. are mostly just kinks and don't necessarily reflect the authors' ideas about sex in general.)

(Damn html!)

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[info]moriath
2009-10-24 12:41 pm UTC (link)
I read the submissive bit as a reference to actual dominant/submissive 'ships, since I often see fics where the (literal) submissive is being coerced/forced into something that is borderline uncomfortable/dangerous and they're enjoying it in spite of what is happening. A more positive portrayal of that situation shows the submissive being enthusiastic and enjoying what is happening *because* they enjoy that particular activity and/or just being sexual with their partner.

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[info]negativecosine
2009-10-24 02:49 pm UTC (link)
wow that reading makes it like eight times hotter, hi.

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[info]churri
2009-10-24 03:32 pm UTC (link)
What [info]moriath said, basically, and I'm sorry if the language was unclear. Some of the impulses behind me creating this in the first place came from was a series of posts I read and conversations I'd had with people about the joy of submission, and how submission can be an empowering and liberating experience. So I chose to use the term "submissive" rather than "bottom." But your point about bottoming certainly holds true, and I'll edit the post/mission statement to reflect that.

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[info]kuromitsu
2009-10-24 05:53 pm UTC (link)
Oh okay, it's clear now. :) I misunderstood that part. (I still don't know about the rest of the fandom, though. I've heard this so often and it never ceases to baffle me.)

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[info]eldritch
2009-10-24 05:03 pm UTC (link)
the (literal) submissive is being coerced/forced into something that is borderline uncomfortable/dangerous and they're enjoying it in spite of what is happening.

Some of us write that on purpose because we like it, you know.

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[info]kuromitsu
2009-10-24 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, in my experience most people (myself included, to a small-ish extent) write/read that sort of stuff simply because it's their kink and not because they have problems with sexuality IRL.

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[info]moriath
2009-10-24 06:54 pm UTC (link)
I have a bit of a kink for it myself, at least when it comes to reading, but I don't think I've ever seen fic where it's portrayed the way I described it above, which is how I partake of it IRL.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Perhaps the OP is being a bit presumptuous about people's RL baggage coming into fandom, but I for one am excited about this idea.

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[info]eldritch
2009-10-24 08:05 pm UTC (link)
I'm not saying that I don't think there are some problematic assumptions about sex that permeate fandom. I've definitely seen some things that have made me back away, including fics where horribly abusive relationships are seen as romantic, and the author doesn't seem to be writing with kink in mind -- rather, they really DO see the abuse as signs of love. And, yeah, I'm all for CONSENT ISN'T BLURRY (because it's not, in real life) and celebrating healthy sex.

But as someone who really enjoys reading and writing dubcon, I think the OP needs to make more of a distinction between "I am writing this fic where Character A isn't sure about this is ashamed of enjoying themselves in this situation because I am tapping into wide-spread problematic ideas about sex" and "I am writing this fic where Character A isn't sure about this and is ashamed of enjoying themselves because I think it's hot."

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[info]churri
2009-10-24 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, sorry that I haven't made that distinction clear enough -- what I created Saying Yes! in response to is the former and not the latter. I like writing and reading dubcon and noncon a lot, too; what I have a problem with are fics that treat noncon and dubcon other than what they are. Where dubious consent (or lack thereof) is just how sex goes and one character shouting "No!" is played for laughs, for example, or where a night of magical healing sex is enough to erase all psychological wounds, or where sex is used as a tool to "put a character in his/her place" and the author clearly agrees with the person espousing these ideas. And I have seen all of the above tropes crop up on a frequent enough basis that it's unsettling. And as a side note, I think it would be interesting to see fics out there where the character finds that feeling of shame hot, not just the author, because I haven't stumbled across many of those. Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong corners of fandom, though.

I'll try to go back and revise the language to make that distinction clearer, and thanks for pointing it out. (If you have any suggestions about how I could do so, I'd love to hear them.)

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[info]pyratejenni
2009-10-24 09:05 pm UTC (link)
On a tangential note, the idea of sex being used to "put a character in his/her place" was how rapefics were initially described to me. Punishing the character, not enjoying a kink-fantasy, was the purpose of the story.

This was back in the 90s and the days of BBS boards and Usenet. Those tropes aren't new at all.

As for a fic in which the character finds the shame hot, the only one I've run across is ...Celebrian.

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[info]sarracenia
2009-10-25 02:03 am UTC (link)
The character finding the shame hot is a fairly common trope in some genres of erotic fiction. I've always figured that its scarcity in fandom comes from the fact that most people aren't terribly comfortable with giving characters who aren't shown to be kinky in canon a specific fetish. And when they do, it tends to be PWPs or in the Kushiel fandom, where the protagonist is canonically into that.

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[info]yoritomo_reiko
2009-10-25 02:45 pm UTC (link)
It's not fic, but I'm RPing a religious kink D/S scene where my guy is playing the innocent virgin confessing to the sin of lust and...yeah. Both he and the other character are finding it hot as, well, hell.

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[info]solle
2009-10-24 04:21 pm UTC (link)
Your post and icon made me want to go search for some Leon/D. Or D/Leon. Or D/Tetsu. Or... whichever, really.

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[info]kuromitsu
2009-10-24 06:02 pm UTC (link)
PSoH fic in general is so rare nowadays. :/ Not that it was ever common to begin with.

(And I hate that the author just dropped Leon from the sequel. He's always been my favorite character.)

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[info]lady_ganesh
2009-10-27 05:47 pm UTC (link)
(Me too. I'm not reading it unless Leon comes back.)

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[info]moriath
2009-10-24 12:49 pm UTC (link)
This is awesome. I'm all for more sex-positivity in fandom. Like you said, not that fandom is specifically sex-negative, but wider cultural tropes can sneak in when we aren't expecting them.

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[info]gorogoro
2009-10-24 06:09 pm UTC (link)
So is it a bad thing that all I can think is HAHAH OH WOW.

You can talk all you want about cultural baggage, but the baggage in this post is pretty astounding.

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[info]churri
2009-10-24 06:12 pm UTC (link)
...would you care to explain? I'm not trying to start wank here, I'm just genuinely curious about what you think is going on here.

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[info]snacky
2009-10-25 03:51 pm UTC (link)
I was reading the discussion where this came up (via metafandom, I think) and thought it sounded interesting! Thanks for putting it together, I'm definitely going to check it out.

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