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	anarchicq 2008-07-01 03:25 am UTC (link)
	I agree with this post. I won't even buy fanart because I feel it infringes on IP. However, what do you think about archives running ad spaces to cover costs, like FFN? If there are ads, will you not post there? Full disclosure: My archive does run project wonderful ads, but I asked my authors if they were ok with ads before I implemented them. (Reply to this)(Thread)

mosquitolarva
2008-07-01 03:55 am UTC (link)

Good questions about ads on webpages. My gut tells me that selling ad space isn't the same as profiting from fanfiction as downloads. While there are certain similarities, i.e, money is being generated from a fandom activity, it strikes me that covering the costs of running a major archive is not the same as charging 8 dollars for a download, which in no way can represent the cost of downloading one PDF file in terms of cost of bandwidth.

(I'm prepared to be proven wrong on this, as I have not the faintest clue about how much certain places charge for bandwidth, but eight dollars seems excessive!)

I think I would have to reserve judgement based on a) what kind of advertising it was (extremely intrusive or not) and b) whether I could be assured that the person running the website was only charging enough for the ads to cover costs incurred by the website itself and not peripheral things, for example, new computers/programs/time spent managing the site.

This would be similar to the way that I want to be assured that zine publishers aren't charging more than the cost of printing and other directly related expenses.

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sidewinder
2008-07-01 01:37 pm UTC (link)

Hosting costs can run very expensive if you have a large/high-bandwidth site. A smaller site can get away with maybe $10/month hosting + domain name annual fees, sure, but a large site that requires virtual domains or even a dedicated server? Now you're looking more in the $100+/month range in costs (plus extra for tech support or any special programming), so yeah, that's a hell of a lot to expect a single fan to shell out per month to host an archive. As such I don't have any problems with ads on large archives, or archives which charge a nominal yearly fee in lieu of ads (ala Rockfic) or ones where, like in the old days of ff.n (I have no idea if they still do this), you could buy a membership so you don't have to see the ads.

$8 for a pdf zine definitely makes me go WTF. Back in the day when I was publishing print 'zines, I used to ask for a $2 "shareware" fee for downloading a pdf copy instead of purchasing the hardcopy, at least while copies were still actively in print. This small amount *did* help keep costs down overall and certainly was no fortune to be made.

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kuromitsu
2008-07-01 02:43 pm UTC (link)

An archive like ff.net probably costs a hell of a money to maintain, and I don't think anyone should be expected to pay for it out of his/her pocket. And frankly, between ads or paid subscriptions I'd much rather choose ads. At least that way they don't take money directly from the fans, besides, with ads the revenue is based on the actual traffic (afaik). (For the same reasons, I don't mind ads on fansites/smaller archives either, especially if the site offers stuff other than fanfic, like essays, reviews, podcasts, interviews, etc.)

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chibikaijuu
2008-07-07 07:04 am UTC (link)

I look at it this way - if a large archive is merely that, an archive, and generates ad revenue based on page views, no one is getting paid for fanfic. The people who receive the money are not creating the fic, simply providing a place for other people to self-publish. They are getting paid to run a site (and depending on the site, may not even be making enough to meet operating costs).

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	seiberwing 2008-07-01 04:49 pm UTC (link)
	I buy fanart mostly because I'm paying for effort and material costs--and it's usually pretty good fanart with a lot of effort put into it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

msmanna
2008-07-02 04:50 pm UTC (link)

I've never understood why it's considered ethical to pay artists for the time and effort involved in creating a picture, but not a writer for the time and effort involved in creating a story. I don't have any big investment in the argument, and I've bought fanart happily, but the contradiction puzzles me. It always seemed more logical to me that either both would be okay, or both would be wrong. I guess it's just one of those things which has become an established part of fandom culture.

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	seiberwing 2008-07-02 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	I admit, from a logical standpoint it doesn't make much sense either (besides the fact that writing generally doesn't have material costs). (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	msmanna 2008-07-02 07:37 pm UTC (link)
	OTOH, I buy art supplies for my mum sometimes, and even with fancy paper, the materials cost of the average piece of artwork probably isn't that different to the materials cost of printing a zine. Certainly nothing like the kinds of prices I've seen for pieces of art at cons. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

squishycat
2008-07-07 07:08 am UTC (link)

It really, really depends. Sometimes art supplies can be immensely expensive.

Also, with fanart, I can look at a piece and know right away if I like it. Very often, I am buying something that is one-of-a-kind or one of a very limited number. There is value in the physical object, whereas with fanfiction the value is in the content, which can't easily be judged quickly and generally does not gain value if in printed rather than electronic form, unless somebody somewhere is printing up leatherbound, full-color plates, etc. copies of really, really, immensely good fanfic.

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sgaana
2008-07-01 10:56 pm UTC (link)

Hmm. Re. fanart: but I've never seen fanart for sale where you didn't wind up with the physical thing in your hands, again. (To compare to charging for a print 'zine, as opposed to a download.)

Of course, there's commissions... hmm.

Then again, it could just be that I'm sheltered in my little corners of fandom. (I also do a *ton* of fanart for people in my fandoms for free. But I sold a couple of things at convention art shows, back in the day.)

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monty
2008-07-01 04:09 am UTC (link)

When did "the spirit of fandom" start to mean "doing things for free"? I've got a copy of "Fantasy Magazine" from 1936, put out by Julius Schwartz, Ray Palmer, and Forrest J Ackerman, the inventors of fandom. It's not free. They were hoping to make a profit by selling something people wanted to buy (and it's awesome, BTW -- there's a short essay by H.G. Wells about his movie "Things to Come"!).

Since the very beginning of fandom, there have been zines that aspired to be professional operations. Some of them made it, like "Famous Monsters of Filmland" and "Garden Ghouls Gazette" (which became Cinefantastique).

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luthe
2008-07-01 05:12 am UTC (link)

I think by "spirit of fandom" she means "not bringing the wrath of the IP owner down upon fandom's teeming masses." Charging $8 for original work? No problem! You own the copyright. Charging $8 for fanfic? PROBLEM. The not-for-profit nature of fanfic is the flismy legal shield that keeps all of our asses from being sued into next Tuesday. See also the status of the online HP Lexicon vs. the print edition of the Lexicon.

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	meril 2008-07-01 08:11 am UTC (link)
	It's fanfiction fandom, not sf fandom or the zine subculture. No "$3, postage, or a copy of your zine" going on here. Common protocol with fanfiction is not to make a profit off the work. Charging for paper fanfic zines: usually OK because it covers the costs of paper. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	limyaael 2008-07-01 01:24 pm UTC (link)
	If H. G. Wells was writing about a movie, that's a bit different from writing fanfiction about the movie. (Reply to this)(Parent)

sgaana
2008-07-01 11:18 pm UTC (link)

Was there any fanfic in those 'zines, though?

And my understanding of that old-timey 'zine subculture was that they, too, tended to sell at close to cost, and that they would offer trades for other 'zines and stuff, too.

But their aim was different from the fanfic-zine publisher, surely. Yes, they aspired to be professional operations. But in a different fannish arena from fanfic.

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mosquitolarva
2008-07-02 01:56 am UTC (link)

As the previous responders noted, these sorts of zines occupy a different subculture (or at least it looks like they do to me based on what I read about them)

I should perhaps have clarified: the zines in question are either anthology zines by mutliple authors of fanfiction or single author novellas or collections, all of which are in a large sci-fi show fandom. And that's what gets me...no one has openly complained about it! (and yes, I haven't either because I'm too chicken shit)

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	iwanttobeasleep 2008-07-01 05:28 am UTC (link)
	Eight dollars for an e-book? I'd be annoyed paying that for famous, published authors. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kylenne 2008-07-01 09:36 am UTC (link)
	Hell, that's more than what Paizo charges for e-versions of old D&D supplements. This some bullshit rightchere. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	beccastareyes 2008-07-01 11:32 am UTC (link)
	At that price, I could go out and buy a professionally-published and edited paperback, or a volume of manga. And then I don't have to pay to print it out so I can take it on the bus. (About the only e-books I've gotten for more than $10 are RPG books for which the PDF price was about 1/2 of the cover price.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

sgaana
2008-07-01 11:15 pm UTC (link)

If this rant isn't about who I think it is, then that's eerie, because precisely the same thing is going on with some kinda-BNFs in the fandom I'm in, and what you've written above? I have thought, word for word, a few times about their switchover to "pay us for our PDF downloads!" (Including the "darnit, you have 'zines that have stories by writers I like!" part. In those cases I tend to just hope that the stories time out and the writers post them somewhere, someday.)

But then, I come from a fannish background in which I was a 'zine editor for many years. I'm used to [a] figuring out how to produce a nice-enough 'zine with what software you have; [b] scrounging up better software; [c] putting in tons of uncompensated hours as both an editor and the layout designer (as well as a writer and illustrator); and [d] keeping METICULOUS financial records to demonstrate what the cost of the 'zine was covering, if anyone wanted to see that breakdown. (Indeed, reporting beforehand on what was "included" in that cost -- i.e. "yes, you're paying $1.50 more per 'zine, but you really like that full-color cardstock cover, right?").

In the fannish areas that I came from, people would have been horrified by the suggestion that a 'zine editor was bumping up the cost of the 'zine a bit in order to make a profit -- even if it was to cover the cost of something related to the 'zine, like software. (I belonged to groups where using subscription or 'zine-cost money to cover the purchase of 'zine-related things could be proposed and debated -- such as the purchase of a comb-binder, or something. But I just... never knew anyone who proposed things like "cover the cost of a scanner" -- no, you don't use 'zine money to purchase things that aren't solely 'zine-related.) Anyway, that's why you had to keep such good records -- to prove you weren't profiting. (Most of the time you operated at a slight loss, anyway -- ordering a few more copies than you'd pre-sold, hoping to sell them later.)

It wasn't until a few years ago that I first ran into these folks in this fandom who started charging for e-zines, and I was like, "... Quoi?" Even when they were charging for mailing you a DVD... it really doesn't compute, I know how much bulk DVDs cost, and I know how much a DVD mailer costs, and I know what the postage is... and they were charging more than that. And when challenged, they'd be all, "... to pay for software like Adobe", or the even shakier, "... for time spent editing".

I don't know. It's an interesting concept -- is charging a certain overhead on a 'zine so that you can buy a spiffy set of the Adobe family of programs, which enable you to produce a *nicer 'zine* than you otherwise would, just the equivalent of charging an extra $1.50 for a spiffy color cardstock cover? I don't see it, myself -- because in the latter case, that's just what Kinko's was charging, man. But... hmm. Okay, say as a 'zine editor I had bough a color laserprinter that would print on cardstock, for which the multiple ink cartridges were pricey. But the only reason I got it was that if I did that, the cost per color cover for the 'zine would be $0.75, rather than twice that at Kinko's, if I figure out how many copies of the cover I can run off and how much that works out in cardstock cost and ink-cartridge cost. Is it okay if I build into the cost of the 'zine the cost of those covers? So that the 'zine is paying *me* for the ink and the cardstock, rather than paying twice as much to Kinko's?

Sometimes I wonder if that's the type of rationale these folks are using. (But notice I didn't say I wanted to extend that, in the hypothetical situation, to getting the 'zine to cover the cost of the printer itself.)

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mosquitolarva
2008-07-02 02:05 am UTC (link)

I think it is a perfectly legitimate to ask what are appropriate costs that can be recouped by fanfiction publishers/webhosters. One problem of course is that this is going to invoke questions of fannish 'values' and one things is certain, people definitely disagree about what is appropriate fan behaviour. Me, I would never consider charging for expenses that I willingly took on as part of my hobby. So no charging others for, say, my Livejournal or Journalfen account. But a larger archive, that brings in questions of much larger service to the community.

With fan art, there's the issue as noted above of 'the effort' that fans put into it. I have to admit, I think fanart is a tricky one, given that I don't think I, as a writer, have the right to demand payment for my effort and I'm not sure that fanart is any different on that score. One might argue that the talent required for art is different, but I don't think the differences are relevant to the question in hand. Paying for supplies when one actually gets a piece of fanart (as opposed to say, downloads of photomanips!) I can accept, as its analogous to paying for the paper in a zine.

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sgaana
2008-07-02 02:24 am UTC (link)

Right. Well, the archiving question I give a pass on -- mainly because, I think, I vaguely understand that when you get into talking about that big a storage space and that much traffic, you're talking a really much, much greater cost to the average user than running a small personal website with your fanfic on it, or paying for an LJ (which you don't technically HAVE to do), or whatever. I think that that points to is that fans may be willing to give a pass on charging for stuff when the endeavor is scaled up. That we have this invisible line, and everything below the line is "small stuff" that you're expected to absorb as part of your hobby; but above that is Big Stuff that we understand a fan being unable to absorb.

I both write and do art -- so I would *never* say that fanart is "worth more" than writing because of "the effort", no, definitely not. It's just too variable. For some folks, doing art comes relatively easy; writing stories is much harder, or at least, it takes more time. (I certainly can whip out art faster than I can whip out a story!) So I think it's a non-starter, to justify paying for fanart on that basis.

I think one of the arguments I've heard is that art may be more transformative than the writing. I'm just reporting that, though; I'm not sure that I buy the idea.

That's why I come back to, "do I have something that I can hold in my hands?" at the end. I wouldn't pay for a piece of e-art, if that's all there was to it; unless it was a commission, in which case the value is "I got somebody to draw to my specifications", which is no small thing.

(Which leads into a possibly-interesting consideration of the practice of people offering to write fanfic in exchange for money... in charity auctions. That's certainly an increasing habit. But since it doesn't have a "profit" component, I'm guessing that's why it doesn't arouse complaint.)

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	mosquitolarva 2008-07-02 02:11 am UTC (link)
	Oh, and I meant to add, that given your interest list over on LiveJournal, I'm thinking we're talking about the same people in the same fandom... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

sgaana
2008-07-02 02:30 am UTC (link)

Yeah, I'm thinking we are, too. :)

You're right that it's interesting that people haven't complained about it more loudly. People certainly *do* complain about it -- just, not around the people who are *doing* it, not on their mailing list or yahoo group or whatever the thing is that's connected to the archive that they run. (Or... now I'm trying to recall if there are stories of people who tried to bring it up for discussion on that mailing list, who got shut down, hard and fast -- since the people they're complaining about are the mods of the list and of that archive, after all.)

So I've seen people bitch about it, or boggle at it. But in other spaces than the one those people frequent.

Ultimately, though, what I think people learned is what you say above: it comes down to fannish values, and guess what, we don't all always share the exact same definition of those values. "I feel it's fair to charge for e-zine PDFs in order to defray the cost of really expensive Adobe layout software, which helps me provide a nicer 'zine" -- "I feel you're nuts!!!" etc. Or, as I said above: different fans set that line, above which things are Big Enough Stuff to qualify for reimbursement, at different places.

It's a tough debate to have, if the other side starts out from what looks to them like a reasonable position, but that looks to *you* like a mercenary position. And it just totally doesn't help that there's some percentage of the fandom who's cheerfully paying them, and thus providing them with validation. :P

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