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Wait around, I'll smile again ([info]iwanttobeasleep) wrote in [info]fandom_rant,
@ 2008-07-24 18:07:00


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I'll give you, Penny is a bit of a cliche character. But her character is actually developed, the show is less than 45 minutes long, and it centers around two personalities, neither of which are hers. Heck, she's more developed than the antagonist, and he is far more of a prop than her. Of course she doesn't get her own story arc, there is only one story arch to begin with. I can totally understand being a little iffy about Joss Wheden's approach to fictional women, but you're being a little unreasonable demanding that she basically be more developed than every other character in order to not be a prop. As the title would suggest, this is Dr. Horrible's story, not Penny's, and it's not some horrible indication of sexism that she gets sucked into it.

Also, that part, when she realizes that Captain Hammer is a total asshole and gets up and walks out during his speech? That right there is her autonomy. She doesn't need to have a screaming fit to prove that she can still think for herself.


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[info]aoibhe
2008-07-24 11:57 pm UTC (link)
Yes, this.

I can't buy you your own internet, but would you be interested in e-cookies? Ficitional beer? Boobies?

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[info]aoibhe
2008-07-24 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Or, if not that, perhaps a comment with fictional spelling correctly? ::facepalm::

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[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-07-25 12:45 am UTC (link)
Correct spelling is the best gift I could get!

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[info]rosalita
2008-07-25 12:56 am UTC (link)
Thank. You.

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[info]gabsy
2008-07-25 01:13 am UTC (link)
Thank you!

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[info]keri
2008-07-25 01:14 am UTC (link)
Whoa, people are bitching about Penny's characterization, and not her singing voice? damn, talking about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Kind of. Or something.


And I like her voice, I don't know why three different people have told me that she's 'shrill' and 'off pitch.' :/ She's totally sweet and awesome. No wonder Dr H wants to rule the world for her.

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[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-07-25 01:32 am UTC (link)
More about the (perceived) sexism in her characterization, but yes.

I like her singing voice. It's sweet.

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[info]keri
2008-07-25 01:37 am UTC (link)
B-but, if they'd made Penny a guy character, everyone'd be complaining about stereotyping of gay men. And. Augh. No winning to be done here.

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[info]breecita
2008-07-25 01:42 am UTC (link)
People ARE complaining about the stereotyping of gay men. Just not as loudly. Though maybe they should be.

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[info]keri
2008-07-25 01:52 am UTC (link)
Stereotyping of gay men in Dr Horrible?

On the one hand, yeah, stereotypes = dumb, but on the other, this particular character could be a guy or a girl and have everyone complaining, the way I understood the rant. But I understand better now what was being said.

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[info]breecita
2008-07-25 01:58 am UTC (link)
There was a minor character who was gay and people have been complaining about that, too. That's all I was saying. ;)

But no. If Penny had been a male, the complaint would have been that the only women in the thing were the dumb newscaster and the fangirls.

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[info]pipssister
2008-07-25 02:23 am UTC (link)
The nerdy fat guy? Sheesh.

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[info]delineated
2008-07-25 04:02 am UTC (link)
The... Pink Puncher, maybe? I'm not sure.

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[info]keri
2008-07-25 03:33 am UTC (link)
I totally missed that. They should've put a big neon sign with a flashing arrow saying THIS GUY IS GAY if I was supposed to know. Or maybe they did and in my viewings I missed it. I only saw the thing twice. :/


(See, if Penny were male, I figured that the boy:girl ratio would be balanced by making one of the male characters a girl.)

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[info]breecita
2008-07-25 06:17 am UTC (link)
Actually? The part I found ironic is that there was actually no proof he was gay. But he was a fanboy and had a lisp, so the person complaining assumed he was and then complained about the stereotypes that led them to their conclusion.

So. You know. Seems a little chicken and egg to me.

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[info]keri
2008-07-25 06:27 am UTC (link)
Oh, wow, that leap of logic deserves a gold star.

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[info]notjo
2008-07-25 12:20 pm UTC (link)
He also is part of the "We do the kinky stuff!" chorus after Dr Horrible says "I hear you get to do the kinky stuff".

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[info]breecita
2008-07-25 02:32 pm UTC (link)
Oh, is he? I couldn't tell for sure and I hadn't paid too close attention to that one line so I guess I'd have to go back and look at it again. I admit fully that when I'm loving/hating/laughing at Nathan Fillion (and in this case, I was doing all three) I don't really notice the bit players.

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[info]notjo
2008-07-25 02:36 pm UTC (link)
I kinda might obsessively watched the thing. I really liked the music, so I often clicked ahead to where the music I liked was. I can't wait till the soundtrack gets released.

Fillion was so having a good time! :) It made me so giggly to watch him in the first Act.

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[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-07-25 01:45 am UTC (link)
Oh, it's not that. It's that people don't think she had enough characterization, when she's at least as well characterized as Billy/Dr. Horrible. Well, that and the characterization she has is based on a trope, which is true of all the other characters. Which is the reason for this rant and all.

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[info]keri
2008-07-25 01:51 am UTC (link)
Ohh, so it's not what but how much? I see better now. I've been avoiding the fan communities because of this kind of stupid.

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[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-07-25 01:53 am UTC (link)
I haven't been in the fan communities, I've seen these complaints three or four times on my flist (and the posts filled with supporting comments).

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[info]keri
2008-07-25 01:54 am UTC (link)
Even worse! D:

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[info]delineated
2008-07-25 01:42 am UTC (link)
Thank you.

I liked Penny, cliche and all. She was sweet, she cared about Billy and she did get her goddamned autonomy when she went "hey, wait, Captain Hammer is a bit of a total arse, really".

She reminded me rather a lot of Willow, but there's nothing wrong with that; I was fond of Willow, too.

Also, what were people expecting? There was really no question that Dr. Horrible would win; he's the titular (anti)hero, and even when Whedon puts his (anti)heroes through crap, they generally win. Besides, I can't see him writing something where a 'hero' as fundamentally bad as Captain Hammer wins. And with Dr. Horrible winning, does anyone find it plausible that Penny would stay with him? More plausible than the idea of the impetus behind his Rise to Glory being the death of the girl that he loves, anyway?

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[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-07-25 01:50 am UTC (link)
I read some people were expecting Penny to be a villain (because villains totally collect signatures for the homeless), too, and at the end to tell off both men for treating women wrong. I'm just glad Joss has more subtlety.

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[info]plazmah
2008-07-25 03:06 pm UTC (link)
I secretly thought it would end with the revelation that Bad Horse was Penny’s father, no lie.

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[info]dhaunea
2008-07-25 01:53 am UTC (link)
I love you, man. Woman. Fictional internet person.

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[info]your_face
2008-07-25 02:18 am UTC (link)
Word. I can't figure out why this, of all the things you could criticize about Dr. Horrible, is the one tons of people are jumping on. I kind of dug Penny.

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[info]ladyindigo
2008-07-25 05:46 am UTC (link)
Penny was flat as a board, IMO, but that was sort of...necessary. And is even sort of subverted when you see it as a treatise on the Nice Guy syndrome, which I didn't get originally. (I'd seen too many geek fantasies where it was played straight to understand that here, it might not be.)

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[info]cygnia
2008-07-25 03:54 pm UTC (link)
Heck, she's more developed than the antagonist, and he is far more of a prop than her.

Captain Hammer, Corporate Prop? ;)

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[info]oxfordcomma
2008-07-26 01:43 am UTC (link)
There was some discussion/wank over on [info]metaquotes about this -- someone there made a pretty persuasive case for seeing Penny (who just wants to freaking help the homeless) as an illustration of what happens when two guys start dickfighting: women suffer. And it's not the most wonderful amazing feminist treatise, but (a) it is more interested in Nice Guy Syndrome, and (b) that still doesn't make Joss Whedon a complete antifeminist sexist prat.

I liked it; I thought it made a nice little provocative commentary on the whole concept of superheroes/villains as well as Nice Guys and how harmful they really are.

Plus, Neil Patrick Harris and Nathan Fillion. Can't go wrong there.

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