Log In

Home
    - Create Journal
    - Update
    - Download

LiveJournal
    - News
    - Paid Accounts
    - Contributors

Customize
    - Customize Journal
    - Create Style
    - Edit Style

Find Users
    - Random!
    - By Region
    - By Interest
    - Search

Edit ...
    - Personal Info &
      Settings
    - Your Friends
    - Old Entries
    - Your Pictures
    - Your Password

Developer Area

Need Help?
    - Lost Password?
    - Freq. Asked
      Questions
    - Support Area



token ([info]chaimonkey) wrote in [info]fandom_rant,
@ 2006-03-11 19:30:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:elitist

anime rant
NOTE: Cross-posted from my LJ - just a little rant that popped up as a critiqued my waste of money on Hellsing manga.



Last night I got into another "Naruto sucks" discussion argument. While it all boils down to taste (or tolerance, from my perspective), I'd like to expound upon why Naruto, and other popular animes, blow so hard.

The problem is a lack of plot. Animes which are mainstream yet looked down upon by other anime fans like myself lack this simple element of good storytelling. These animes run on a central conflict, move along with a "quest" engine, and then garner their popularity from basic entertainment value. Often character driven, they ultimately fail in their lack of character depth; for those which attempt to follow a general plotline, they end up as conflict stories instead as they express no completion of that plot. Naruto, for example, operates on a coming-of-age conflict rather than plot; economically driven, it is without a conclusion and therefore a long tale of a boy, his friends, and their never-ending quest for acceptance. To distract its viewers from its refusal to mature into a true story, Naruto relies on drama and humor to carry the tale.

To contrast, Gantz and Bleach succeed by taking this basic set-up of a character driven conflict tale and acknowledging its architecture rather than ignoring it. The difference is akin to a model of a castle for a movie-set when contrasted to the winding and intriguing depths and mechanics of the genuine monolith. In successful animes such as these, the story triumphs on the same guildelines due to the simple fact that the characters are round rather than flat. It is a defending turret to a decorative protrusion - the series can succeed on character motivation and development since the characters do so three-dimensionally rather than superficially. It is Sakura, Sasuke, and Naruto's puppy-love triangle to Kurono's struggles with Kishimoto's sexuality and thereby his own - and further subplots developing thereby.

Inuyasha is perhaps the best example of an exhaustive avoidance of plot. The show is set up thusly: drama conflict between main characters, action conflict between "good" character heros and "bad" character villians. Its problem lies in its apparent resolve to remain superficial in its unfolding of these conflicts; there are no resulting subplots, no multiple motivations and conflicts in the main conflict, and no rounded depth to these characters who are supposed to be driving this neverending story - faults shared with Naruto. Further, each episode is the same formula with interchanging characters: demons + Shikon no Tama + heroes + villian in background, with a dash of drama and comedy to distract. Ultimately, Inuyasha fails in the basic fact that this story never ends and, based on the reputation of its mangaka Takahashi, never will. This is best displayed in that, initially, the Shikon no Tama grows quite rapidly; but as the series progresses, it seems never to change at all.

This premise works in comedies, which are light and forwardly superficial to begin with, but rarely if never succeeds with action or drama in the sense that a serious tale with no conclusion simply does not satisfy. This is why American cartoons and sitcoms can go on forever. An action must have a plot, it must ultimately end, the heroes must succeed and move on to greater and further quests, not remain the same unending time trap. This is why Ranma had no problem, and why Tenchi Muyo has so many branches - because the former is a slapstick while the latter actually wraps up its plots and creates new ones.

The crowning achievement of a good character driven, quest anime with humor and drama to flavor is, of course, Cowboy Bebop. Its characters hold a depth rarely seen in most media endeavors, while its admittedly formulaic episodes deviate from and build upon the basic structure to such an extent as to make reducing them to formula comparable to the Greek epic formula - each story great and independant, even though containing similar, generalized elements such as deity intervention. Most importantly, the series ends as is due a plot - but what sets Bebop apart is that the seemingly simple series possesses an overarching question, a motivation behind the question and tomfoolery and character interaction. It has a purpose.

Aimless animes with weak characters driving a story are the porkrinds of the anime world. Satisfying on the most basic and gluttonous level, they contain no meaningful compounds; they are simply air, fat, charcoal and grease. They are a Hollywood facade of the true castle of what they could have been, if only the creators had given the time and honor to plot, subplot, and true character and story development.



(Post a new comment)


[info]miharu
2006-03-12 01:52 am UTC (link)
Rumiko Takahashi is the Queen of Aimless and Neverending Plots With Inexplicably Huge Fandoms. That is all.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]your_face
2006-03-12 05:07 am UTC (link)
If only I'd realized this before spending so much money on her manga. *tear*

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]senor_pinata
2006-03-12 06:17 am UTC (link)
Word. She generally has fairly entertaining setups, they just never go anywhere. I watched the first 30 or so Inuyasha episodes and a few sporadically since then, and I'm free to enjoy the fic with no problems.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]marlo, 2006-03-13 06:15 pm UTC

[info]coffee_mug
2006-03-12 07:47 pm UTC (link)
True. It pisses me off because I actually liked Ranma for a while. Though I heard that one ended. Can anyone spoil me on how it all came together? (If it ever did.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pyrrah, 2006-03-13 07:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coffee_mug, 2006-03-14 10:02 am UTC

[info]chaimonkey
2006-03-12 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Which is precisely why I read it more like a distinct-episode series than a running series. Who's got the time?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]waltraute
2006-03-12 02:49 am UTC (link)
I was really disappointed in the ultimate plot arc of Cowboy Bebop, actually.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]iczer6
2006-03-12 06:41 am UTC (link)
Ditto.

Or I was interested in the plot they hinted at but didn't do anything with until the final two eps.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2006-03-12 06:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladybirdsleeps, 2006-03-12 05:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2006-03-12 08:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-12 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adora_spintriae, 2006-03-13 01:54 pm UTC

[info]chaimonkey
2006-03-12 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Hmm, I rather like it. But I suppose it is a matter of taste.

And hey, without, still a good series - just not as profound.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]nebbieq
2006-03-12 03:13 am UTC (link)
Aimless animes with weak characters driving a story are the porkrinds of the anime world. Satisfying on the most basic and gluttonous level, they contain no meaningful compounds; they are simply air, fat, charcoal and grease.

Not to mention the disgusting texture in some cases. Bleh.

(Reply to this)


[info]nebbieq
2006-03-12 03:21 am UTC (link)
ALSO ALSO

What about shows where each episode is its own story, as opposed to being part of one long neverending story? Law & Order, for example, worked pretty well for a while (the writing seemd a bit burnt out eventually, though, but that's a tangent for another time).

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]chaimonkey
2006-03-12 10:55 pm UTC (link)
Law & Order. Mmmm.
The great beauty of such shows is they save you money and time, while still satsifying. I'm also a big fan of consecutive series that are able to make episodes that are able to stand on their own.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]chibikaijuu
2006-03-12 04:52 am UTC (link)
Yes, and?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]chaimonkey
2006-03-12 10:56 pm UTC (link)
This is a rant community.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]gorogoro
2006-03-12 05:02 am UTC (link)
I have to admit that, as much as I love me some shounen manga, I really see the main factor to plot and/or characterization suckage to be the endless serialization, period. Oh sure, Bleach went on nicely for a while.. but on the other hand, it's only just got its book 21. I expect it to be sucking it up by the time it gets another ten volumes under its belt.

(Or maybe I'm just bitter about the ridiculousness of the whole bit with Isshin being *spoiler* --- aaargh.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]brick_me
2006-03-12 12:02 pm UTC (link)
but on the other hand, it's only just got its book 21. I expect it to be sucking it up by the time it gets another ten volumes under its belt.

Major word.

The only long-running shonen manga I can recall to have a major questy storyline running through its 40-odd volumes which actually managed resolved its plot somewhat satisfactory, too, is Dragon Quest: Dai no daibĂ´ken.

In seinen, there are more examples. Like Parasyte. But seinen suffer less from the pressure of the over-hyping and over-long serialization that shonen does, do that's pretty much a given. I agree with you, it's more of a problem connected to the genre than to any individual title.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]chaimonkey
2006-03-12 10:57 pm UTC (link)
A great point, about which I'm worried as well - but for now, it's quite an impressive series.

No spoiler! No spoiler! I read the manga. *crycry*

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-12 10:57 pm UTC

[info]xero_sky
2006-03-12 05:11 am UTC (link)
So... if I think of Cowboy Bebop as moderately entertaining at best, or if Ranma couldn't sustain my interest, yet I enjoy Naruto... this means I like porkrinds? Dude, that's disgusting. I'm not even sure those qualify as safe for human consumption. I think they're dog treats that got mislabled somehow.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]chibikaijuu
2006-03-12 05:21 am UTC (link)
They're pretty fearful. My fifth grade musical actually revolved arouns them, and at one point members of the cast threw bags of pork rinds into the audience.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]pokecheck
2006-03-12 11:36 am UTC (link)
Yo, pass them porkrinds. I may not always be thrilled with how they pace the anime, but I love Naruto.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ironymaiden, 2006-03-12 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 04:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-13 05:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 06:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-13 06:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 07:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ironymaiden, 2006-03-13 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 07:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ironymaiden, 2006-03-13 08:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 08:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ironymaiden, 2006-03-13 08:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 08:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ironymaiden, 2006-03-13 09:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 09:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ironymaiden, 2006-03-13 09:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 10:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ironymaiden, 2006-03-13 10:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pokecheck, 2006-03-13 11:39 am UTC

[info]chaimonkey
2006-03-12 10:58 pm UTC (link)
Well, change it to whatever high-end junk food you like, the metaphor still works.
And hey, I enjoy the occasional porkrind m'self.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]delarina
2006-03-12 09:03 am UTC (link)
The difference is akin to a model of a castle for a movie-set when contrasted to the winding and intriguing depths and mechanics of the genuine monolith.

I would offer you a tissue, but I think you need an entire towel for that.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-12 10:58 pm UTC

[info]naienko
2006-03-13 07:19 pm UTC (link)
That explains a lot to me -- although I'd be using the "junk food vs rabbit food as snacks" metaphor, which tastes to me a bit less like "zomg how could you like this stuff it's crap!" and more like "it's junk but we love it wee~ /and the good for us stuff too, yeah"

2 cents.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-13 10:40 pm UTC

[info]pyrrah
2006-03-13 07:55 pm UTC (link)
Is it bad that the only thing I could think about while reading this was, "Noooo, Death Note!"

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-13 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyrrah, 2006-03-13 11:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyrrah, 2006-03-14 04:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-14 04:31 am UTC

[info]chibicurmudgeon
2006-03-17 01:52 am UTC (link)
I've been curious about Naruto and Inuyasha, simply because they're so popular. Hey, last time I decided to swallow my elitism and read something popular, I discovered Harry Potter.
But thanks for explaining why I should skip them. Anime has a tendency to disappoint me in the plot department.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chaimonkey, 2006-03-18 12:38 am UTC

[info]linadarkstar
2006-03-19 10:15 am UTC (link)
So what are your thoughts on ya-er, One Piece?

Perhaps you're not aware of it- in a discussion of long, winding shounen, I imagine the name would come up if you were. It's perhaps the only anime I've ever seen that appears to have plotted out and planned for 300+ episodes. Instead of, you know, planning the first 30 and then winging it.

Crafting a well-structured and self-contained anime series with 26 episodes + maybe a movie is one thing, and difficult enough in itself. (For a 26-ep storytelling experience similar in breathtaking quality to Bebop, I have to recommend Last Exile.) Pulling together an epic is something else entirely.

(Reply to this)


 
   
Privacy Policy - COPPA
Legal Disclaimer - Site Map