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Jetamors ([info]jetamors) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2006-09-15 23:40:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:amused
Entry tags:fandom: harry potter, my pretension let me show you it

Pseudointellectual HP wank
In hp_essays, of all places.

Anyway, darkthirty wants us all to know that the discourse in HP is not up to his lofty standards.

Okay, I've of course been hearing about Harry and the Potters, and other "bands" for a while - didn't catch H and the Ps at the Vancouver Public Library last year since I knew they were, fankly, unmusical, goofy and boring. But what I said about Pirates II holds for this - it's banal stuff that gets hyped into some kind of cultural acceptance, which I think is really shitty and which has, in fact, taken over much of television itself these days - witness the immense audience still for fantasy TV ("reality TV" they call it). There's a section of Rowling fandom (Rowling Fandom, I repeat) that stands for everything these lame bands do not, and I am certain must suffer fools continuously in the general, cultural register.

An honest reading of Rowling will not, however, be morose. In fact, it is much more humourous than the orneriness that passes for wit (often enough the lowest common denominator of snarkiness, bitchiness, pettiness, "my cool is the real cool", after all the sum and substance of most so-called comics or comedians since the great anti-political hammer fell on Television in the 80s, just as it had hammered comic books into stupidity for 4 decades) in the bickersites and wankoffs of the internet.

JK Rowling must, in all ways, be examined as we would examine any other author. Okay, not a revolutionary statement - but to the casual reader, online fandom treats her in exceptional, and exceptionally ridiculous, ways. The subjects talked of, or at least suggested, at the numerous conferences, do NOT make it into the journals and fansites. What, can't attendees remember what was said? Can't they incorporate at least some of what they heard into their gossipy, flower print posts? It's stupid and ridiculous that out of 4 or 5 conferences, online fandom has only people like Melissa and Emerson, for example, those endlessly prancy, poncey and silly guys, who are more than a little irritating, to represent it.

Cultural industries, as they are called, like hollywood cinema and tv, have long excelled at encouraging folks to identify with the burp of the day - people study this, hone and refine this. Advertising has grown so important, governments that would spend their propaganda dollar without either employing orconsulting advertisers are being careless. But if someone just jumps to the dumbdrum, since what they want is such a powerful drive, having little, perhaps, or having little of value in their lives, that doesn't seem like serious, anti-terrorist vigilance (ie - being afraid, just generally, and particularly of strangers, and insisting on being right about, um, well, whatever they feel they need to be right about, regardless of whether or not they CAN be right) that a stupid dog of a movie like Pirates II can be the hit of the year, a hit in the heads of the fans who really could have asked for at least a half-decent movie, and not the monstrous insulting piece of glib they got, they are utterly and completely lost, and they really should try reading something that will, at least potentially, unblinker them from such claptrap, like, say, Rowling.

Where's all the good stuff, eh? Come on, post it!

Please, urls, since there's apparently so much!!!!!
Michael Bronski here,, in case you haven't read her essay yet.


Boils down to "Waah, people aren't writing what I want them to write! PS, everything you like sucks." Unsurprisingly, people take offense to the digs at Harry and the Potters, POTCII, and Melissa and Emerson. What they don't realize is that they're taking offense because they're poopyheads, as darkthirty makes sure to inform them.

Some of the better exchanges:

POTCII objectively sucks!

"Dude, this is a rant, not an essay." "Is not!"

The only meaningful discourse is in conventions! Every online HP meta community is banal and insipid.

"You only disgree with me because I insulted your favorite things." "Actually, I don't like any of the things you insulted." (Whoops!)

Don't miss the appearance by our favorite TMI queen. Apparently the secret cabal ruling HP has forced the intelligent criticism underground. Vive la revolution!

Dunno about you, but I'm amused.

ETA: Deleted, by the mods. You may think they deleted it because it was a rant thinly disguised as an essay, or because of the wank, but darkthirty knows the real reason: because the mods don't like people dissing Emerson and Melissa. Oy vey.

ETA2: The mod's smackdown, for posterity.



(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


(Anonymous)
2006-09-16 09:46 pm UTC (link)
It is indeed because of the ad hominem attack against Emerson and Melissa, siriave's comments on the subjects :

This post is off-topic, and would perhaps be more suited to [info]fanfic_rants than it is to [info]hp_essays. This community
exists to, hopefully, foster more discussion of the books, the
accompanying movies, and fandom as a whole.

Whatever you may think of the standard of the works in this
community--and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, might I
add--it is unacceptable that you come into a community which proclaims
in its very name to be a forum of appreciation for JK Rowling's
work, and to belittle it, and sneer at her and her fans. I am not
referring to critiques--which we have had here many times in the past--I
am referring to you being deliberately condescending and unconstructive.

Not only that, but you go against the community user info in more than
one place by making ad hominem remarks about certain fans. "online fandom
has only people like Melissa and Emerson, for example, those endlessly
prancy, poncey and silly guys, who are more than a little irritating",
for example, in your original post, and then again in various places in
the comments. Critique, analyse, or break down their ideas or
actions--that's fine. But when you are reduced to personal name calling
against them, that is completely unacceptable and juvenile, and it
will not be tolerated here.

Please delete this entry as soon as possible. If it is not removed in
four hours from the time of my posting this comment--that is, 1500 GMT--I
will remove it myself.

siriaeve, [info]hp_essays co-moderator.


and

Regardless of that, just because someone is well known doesn't mean that
you are free to criticise them and insult them in anyway that you wish.
For instance, I may criticise the policies, the actions or the political
aims of the government of my country. But if I declare that my President,
for example, is an insipid, irritating, brainless twit--then I have
crossed a line. It may not qualify as slander or libel, and I may be free
to say it, but it is certainly rude and juvenile. And if I declare such
things in a public forum, then I have to accept the consequences of my
words.

You made ad hominem remarks about them--things which are clearly
unwelcome in this community according to our userinfo--and so should not
be surprised when you are called on them.


and

ad hominem is a specific kind of argument, usually, and more loosely,
doesn't quite fit what I was doing. I was insulting them.


You admit that you were insulting them. That is indeed ad hominem
behaviour--whether you choose to call it an ad hominem attack, ad hominem
abusive, or argumentum ad personam--and is specifically disallowed in our
userinfo:

Ad hominem arguments - those which appeal much more to
personal, emotional considerations rather than to logic or reason, or
those which attack the original poster on a personal basis - are not
allowed.


I fail to see one section of your post in which you addressed their
actions; you insulted them as people. That is not constructive, or
rational, or sensible.


and right before the deletion
kay, it is now 1500, and you have not deleted your post. I hate doing
something like this, but I'm going to go ahead and do so. If you wish to
discuss the topic further, you can contact the mods at
hp.essays@gmail.com, or me personally at siriaeve@livejournal.com.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]jetamors
2006-09-16 09:50 pm UTC (link)
Well, dang. *fangirls*

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2006-09-16 09:51 pm UTC (link)
Quite :)

- same mouse as before

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]fernwithy
2006-09-17 01:45 am UTC (link)
:hates to agree with wanky person:

Ad hominem really doesn't mean insulting. It's a logical fallacy. It needn't even be negative. If you argued, "OBHWF is a great theory; Emerson says so, and he's the nicest person in the world," it would still be ad hominem. It's arguing from the basis of the personality rather than the basis of the text in question. It's a fallacy because terrific people can be wrong, educated people can make missteps, and evil people don't have any particular prohibition against saying something right--each thing has to be evaluated on its own.

Insults are insults. From what I saw, the poster may well have skated up to the edge of it, but it did come off saying more, "People like M & E are stupid because they follow this idea" (insult) rather than "The idea is stupid because people like M & E like it" (ad hominem fallacy). Of course, she didn't actually offer any reasons why it is stupid. But I don't think she can quite be accused of ad hominem.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2006-09-17 02:19 am UTC (link)
Interesting. I was wondering about it, and I had never come across a very technical definition of ad hominem thanks for providing it.

Well that was the bit in the OP's post
It's stupid and ridiculous that out of 4 or 5 conferences, online fandom has only people like Melissa and Emerson, for example, those endlessly prancy, poncey and silly guys, who are more than a little irritating, to represent it.


Which I guess is a bit of neither. Just plain insults XD

-- still the same mouse

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]wahlee
2006-09-17 05:27 am UTC (link)
Well, technically, yeah. But like "Platonic Love" differently than Plato might have originally intended, most of the world (including, apparently, the hp_essays mods) interpret ad hominem as attacking the person, not the argument. So they're arguing rhetoric and semantics. If the hp_essays people wrote that part of their guidelines intending it to mean "don't insult people," then they're within their rights to enforce it that way.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]fernwithy
2006-09-17 06:26 am UTC (link)
Hmm. I'd rather see it more widely used in its proper sense, because it's a major problem in the way people argue issues, both in its positive and negative uses... way too much personality over logic going on out there. This is particularly true on an essay site, which presumably is meant to lead to debate... in the context of debate, it has a very particular and well-known meaning.

Though I didn't read the guidelines; if they use it in a context that it's clear they actually mean "insult," then whatever word they used, it's against the rules. I assumed they had a rule about insulting people in general. (Their mission is a bit different from ours!)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]greenling
2006-09-17 06:38 am UTC (link)
I thought the positive side was argument to false authority?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]fernwithy
2006-09-17 07:01 am UTC (link)
I believe that's a form of ad hominem fallacy.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]fernwithy
2006-09-17 07:06 am UTC (link)
(Of course, I didn't do debate team, because my school didn't have one--grrrr--so I got the terms purely out of books, and God knows, I may have read the wrong one, or be remembering it wrong. Or have followed the bouncing logic at some point in the past to include the general concept of the positive side. Checking the meaning of the Latin, it does seem to mean "against the man" rather than "from the man," so probably you're right. Though I'd argue that it's the same flaw in thinking.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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