In this thread, rann mentioned some old Boy Meets Boy wank. Here it is, for your viewing pleasure.

It starts when rann posts some constructive crit to the the BMB mailing list.


"'Lo, all. I was on this list for a short time awhile back, and thought I'd join again, as I have some thoughts I'd like to share, and I hope to get some feedback on those thoughts, both from you the fans and perhaps the illustrious artiste herself. Now, please keep in mind that, while the following mail contains criticism, it is by no means a flame. I enjoy BmB and know that its fans
are dedicated and appreciative; I also hope they are intelligent and openminded, as they dang well should be."
...
"But lately, I find my enjoyment of the strips... a little taxed. They're still done rather well, the art's wonderful as ever, but I find certain things lacking.

The comic where Harley says he's found the difference in religious politics and Mikhael proceeds to list off several philosophical bits, and Harley pouts "I was going to say Santa Claus" was pretty predictable, as was the "I forgot all about the PRESENTS!" strip, as was Tabitha's joy at Christmas shopping season greed. Basically, I'm seeing the punchline coming before I ever get near the fourth frame, and the punchline doesn't have quite the punch I feel it used to.

Which is partly because of something else I feel the strip suffers from... all the characters seem to be pretty much stereotypes. Harley is a stereotypical "sleek little bottom", childish and a little femmey, and constantly about to float out of his pants because they're down around his hips and his rear end looks like two helium balloons barely contained by the fabric. Mikhael is the "big papa bear top", who seems to sprout a thick winter coat of fur whenever he removes an article of clothing, and is, in profession and tastes, everything the
average mundane thinks of when they hear "gay man". Skids (oh lord, I can feel the pain of thrown objects already) is ditzy, childlike, and cute... basically, he's a male Phoebe, from Friends. ... I can't stand Phoebe. Faith isn't QUITE fully stereotyped into "ditzy cute lonely
girl", but she's close.

Now, all those stereotypes? Don't bug me that much. I mean, I might prefer they be otherwise, but hey, every wonderful thing has to have a couple of drawbacks.

But the more I think about one in particular, the more it kinda-sorta bothers me, and the more I feel I have to say something about it.

Harley's mom.

Harley's mom seems to be not only a Jewish stereotype, but a rather negative one. She's basically every "Jewish mom" from every sitcom taken and rolled into one. She wants to set Harley up with a doctor. She does the guilt trips. She assesses point values to Mikhael's various body parts to rate whether he's good enough to be with Harley. And all her problems with the relationship magically disappear when she finds out Mikhael's got MONEY.

Now, before anyone thinks I'm making all these criticisms just for the sake of griping about things, that's not my intention at all. What I'm trying to do is get a sense of things, of whether anyone else has noticed these things or felt this way, or if I'm all on my lonesome. (Hm... maybe this is practice for coming out...) Er, but anyway, it's
also because I really do like the strip a lot, I think K. Sandra is a very talented artist, and that's WHY I take the time to write this long rambling email. Because I want to see BmB get better and better and better, not degrade over time like other comic strips I once enjoyed have done (Bob and George, for one), or suffer from stagnation and
repetitiveness and lack of characterization like even some professional comics do (Ranma 1/2 for a HUGE example)."

That wasn't actually that much shorter. Sigh.


The response is not overwhelming, but it's bizarre.



"My own personal code of honor has always been to only give constructive critisims unless it was asked for, but whatever. [Is it just me, or was that the single most confusingly worded sentence ever?] I'm not juding your decision.

As far as the strip goes, and this is purely my opinion, the fact that it has only been running one year and given us several idefiable charcters is amazing. I follow roughly twelve online cartoons and most of them have maybe
three reconsiable charcters by the end of their first year, if they have continued at all."

So, erm... ket me get this straight. BMB (which I am a fan of, though I see rann's point) is noteworthy because it gives us "several identifiable characters," whereas most only give us three. Um. This continues in a second post, which is a fairly standard, "I'm sure she knows what she's doing, and I don't want this turning into a flame-war, so away I go."



"*delurks for a one-liner* What, can't negative
feedback be constructive? *relurks and sits back to
read the rest of the reactions to Rann's comments,
which [poster] thinks should be very interesting*"



"I don't consider this a flame, so no worries on that.

About stereotypes... well, they exist for a reason, they weren't just pulled out of thin air. What can I say, I do start off with them, but I try to get beyond that. I thought I was doing pretty well, but apparently not.

Harley's mom....:grins: she's just a MOM. I don't know, personally, I've seen moms of all backgrounds act like that. Heck, you should see the rundown my mom (Santeria-pagan type christian) gives potential suitors, and my
friend's mom (pagan, if it matters) is even worse... The clipboard of points?
That's not a creation of my imagination, people.

About fleshing out characters....well, it's a daily strip, meaning one a day. That's a pretty slow track. I have a lot of characters to cover because I want to avoid the very thing you believe I'm missing. I want to flesh them
out. Unfortunately, it's a daily strip. For a daily strip, I am doing pretty well. Many strips end far before the one year mark, or soon thereafter. I haven't gotten sick of it because I *do* enjoy the strip and making people happy.

Skids isn't as childlike as he appears, but again, that's another storyline that'll come later.

>Um, anyway, I'll wrap up here. Again, emphasizing that I am not attacking
>or slamming or bashing BmB at all. I'm just a fan trying to get with my
>fellow fans and be heard.

I hear you. Truth to tell, it does FEEL like a slam or an attack, but I hear you for what it is: simple criticism, albeit unasked for. I don't profess to be perfect, nor is my strip. So a bit of a smack like this one is occasionally called for, I suppose, which isn't to say I enjoy it, but if there's something that can be improved, I'm all for giving it the old college try.

Er, I think that's most of what I can reply to, as it wasn't an email addressed to just me, but to everyone else on the mailing list. So, I'll leave you all with that."

Erm... just a question: how is a comic a day slow character development? I don't read many American comics, but manga comes out with about thirty pages a month, I think, which isn't really much quicker. She has faster development than many comics. Err. Anyway. Also, both of them seem to be focusing on "this was not asked for." I write fanfic and I just started a webcomic, and it was my understanding that feedback is kinda a given, not one of those things you turn on or off. And certainly constructive crit is something a lot of people CRAVE, because it's so much more helpful than "OMG this soooo good!!1!" So that's really confusing for me. Comes with two bonus "we love you" replies.



"Okay. I'm done throwing things and slamming my fist into tables and walls, so I think I can reply now ^.^ [always an encouraging start.]

My first instict is to do what a protective friend such as myself would want to do for a friend who's being critiqued when she did not ask for it. But, for the time being, I'll stop thinking of Sandra as a friend and think of her as an artist.

And, as you did, I'm going to make a disclaimer that this isn't a flame either, but a disagreement.

I've tried to do a webcomic, and I do, but not nearly on a daily basis. Let me tell you, it's not easy. I'm certain it becomes even less easy when you have a horde of fans who threaten you if two certain characters don't get together or IM you with stars in their eyes acting like idiots. I have a ridiculous amount of respect for
Sandra for the simple fact that she keeps going and doesn't give in.

As for the quality of her work, the fanbase speaks for itself. The art is consitantly well done. As for the quality of the writing, I'll discuss what you brought up. Sterotypes. Part of writing a successful comic is starting with stereotypes so that people know what to expect from the characters, and then to develop them beyond that stereotype. I for one, think that Sandra has succeeded in this. If you don't think she has, all I can say is 1) stop reading the strip or 2) try doing better. Predictable punchlines. I see what you're talking about to an extent, but the few times that I am able to see what the
punchline will be before I get to it don't take away from the cuteness/humor aspect for me. Again, if they bother you that much, take my earlier advice and stop reading BmB or make a better strip if you think you can.

Now, as a reader of the strip, I think that sending this e-mail was wrong. When I wake up in the morning, when you wake up, when any fan of BmB wakes up, they have a strip to look forward to and they KNOW it will be there. And I can't speak for everyone but, in my case, I also KNOW that it'll make my day a little brighter.

This is what Sandra woke up to this morning."

1. Is "the fanbase speaks for itself" as bad an argument as I think it is? Because, erm, yeah. Fandom Wank.
2. The response of "if you don't like it, don't read it" is often a good one, but here? Not so much.
3. The ending is my favorite part.



Well yeah. As Sandra said (and I would have said the exact
same thing, too. It's a DAILY strip. Not a lot can happen in one day, given that there's anywhere between 3-5 panels being worked with. But look at it over a year. How far has *everyone* come? Of course there's never going to be any truly fleshed, soulsearing characterisations... there's only so much that can be expressed in this strip given the artistic style. It sounds to me like you want BmB to be a graphic novel with indepth studies and 128 pages of text to accompany it. Sweetheart, that is never going to happen. I think it's the fans who see past the few levels
shown in the daily strip. Ever heard of subtext? Gee, and people wonder why I write fanfic...

Personally, i think criticsm should be given freely. if it was only given when asked for, people wouldn't ask for fear of what would be said.

This is my reply to your opinions.

With regards to the stereotypical nature of characters, all I can say is have some faith. There are storylines in the works for months that build up to certain things. I do not know what all of them are, but I know one or two things, and let me tell you, each panel of each day, the groundwork is laid, and the hard work is done to bring the boys or girls to a certain point.

You obviously don't have enough patience to ride it out and see where it goes.

If you have a problem with the characterisations, I believe that you're not looking past the surface. Because that's all it is, surface. Scratch a little deeper, you may just be surprised."

There's more to that one too, but I'm starting to get sleepy... must seek out wank...



"EEEP! I dislike those who flame, especially when not
having read or understood what they were flaming.
Criticism can so easily be turned to hurtful words if
not handled with sensitivity... Retalliation is sometimes necessary, and I'm glad Sandra nipped this one in the bud."

Sometimes, saying "this is not a flame" doesn't get through.


There were valid points on both sides, including "story still developing!" and the suggestion that this might have been better as an e-mail directly to Sandra, but I have lost energy. All posts found on the ML, way back when. Decided not to put in names, for reasons beyond me.

On the whole, I found the entire thing surreal. No one gets to the actual flame level, but it's all very... made me feel so uncomfortable on that list, even though I was a lurker, becuase it was so confusing that the OP was objectionable. And I have probably made at least two HTML errors in here, so I apologize in advance.