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NM ([info]narcissam) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2006-10-14 15:33:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Lee Goldberg vs. Naomi Novik: The Ultimate Smackdown
A year and a half ago, Lee Goldberg and Naomi Novik were on an NPR show discussing fanfic, and Goldberg said all sorts of insulting things to her on air and on his blog. ("Her arrogance and stupidity is mind-boggling.") Well, he's sorry for that now. Because now he can expose Naomi Novik as a hypocrite for this quote in the New York Times:
"Around 1994 Ms. Novik began writing fan fiction, stories based on the characters of other writers. She called it “embarrassing, terrible early work” that could not be published — thankfully, she said — because it would be tantamount to copyright infringement on other authors’ characters."
See! She changed her mind once she had published original fiction!

But Naomi Novik posts a correction on her LJ to the story:
"Okay, so, I do have to put one small correction on record here (for anyone who has not read more than three entries back in my lj and doesn't already know this about me) and say hey, yes, my 1994 fanfic was indeed terrible crap and it is embarrassing in the way that all juvenalia is embarrassing, but that was the stuff I wrote twelve years ago; I am very proud of my more recent fanfic and love writing it (a little too much, sadly, when I have pressing deadlines to procrastinate from)."
Lee and his supporters don't back down, though, particularly when Kete says, "Lovely, to see you back-pedaling now that she's definitely more successful than you! ;-)"

Scramble to prove Lee Goldberg is more sucessful ensues. Plenty of quotable lines but the prize here goes to Goldberg fan Mark A. York:
"I read part of an excerpt and aside from the interest in sailing to Istanbul, transporting Dragon eggs is plain ridiculous to me personally. I couldn't read it."
Thanks to the mouse on [info]wank_report for the tip-off.



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[info]elektra3
2006-10-14 11:59 pm UTC (link)
"I read part of an excerpt and aside from the interest in sailing to Istanbul, transporting Dragon eggs is plain ridiculous to me personally. I couldn't read it."

Dragons, of course, being a totally ridiculous thing to have in a series of fantasy novels.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]narcissam, 2006-10-15 12:00 am UTC
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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-15 06:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]squeakytoy, 2006-10-15 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-15 01:44 am UTC
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(no subject) - ealusaid, 2006-10-15 05:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]drakyndra, 2006-10-15 05:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2006-10-15 09:35 am UTC
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... - [info]blue_penguin, 2006-10-16 03:18 am UTC
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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 05:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]silrana, 2006-10-15 04:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onaga, 2006-10-16 02:26 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-10-15 12:05 am UTC (link)
Who the heck are these people, and why were they on NPR?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]narcissam, 2006-10-15 12:08 am UTC
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*reads review* - [info]narcissam, 2006-10-15 12:56 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2006-10-15 07:48 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]quettaser, 2006-10-15 04:13 am UTC

[info]quettaser
2006-10-15 12:19 am UTC (link)
The stupid that abounds in Mr. Goldberg's blog (while some of it is from him, the majority of it is from the commenters) PHYSICALLY PAINS ME.

It's all well and good for Ms. Novik to be "delighted" at fanfic based on her work - yet she won't read it due to legal issues. In short, she knows it's a copyright violation - and reading it and not stopping it is tantamount to LOSING her copyright protection.

WHAT. They're confusing copyright with trademark and I don't think anything in Naomi Novik's books are trademarked yet. And the dangers for an author reading fic lie in fans sueing her for "stealing" their ideas. Seeing as how she isn't done writing the series yet, better to be safe than sorry.

Also, is it safe to call this wank Godwin'd?

Why would you come to someone's own website for the sole purpose of insulting them? The standard for manners in the land-of-Hitler must be a little different from that of the civilized world.

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(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2006-10-15 12:29 am UTC
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... - [info]tez, 2006-10-15 03:43 am UTC
... - [info]mister_terrific, 2006-10-16 06:20 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]quettaser, 2006-10-15 04:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]astridv, 2006-10-15 09:26 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 09:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-10-15 08:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 06:06 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]quettaser, 2006-10-15 04:29 am UTC
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[info]brown_betty
2006-10-15 12:23 am UTC (link)
Some commenter: Fanfic is unethical because passing the work of another off as your own is unethical."

It's like I wandered into the wrong wank by mistake!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]quettaser, 2006-10-15 12:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_clansmen, 2006-10-15 05:02 am UTC

[info]brown_betty
2006-10-15 12:29 am UTC (link)
I, Holly Lisle, do not, in any manner, format, or medium, authorize, permit, or condone the use of my characters or worlds in fan fiction, also known as fanfic. Any such use will be construed as the knowing and intentional creation of a derivative work, which is prosecutable by law, and which will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


I desperately want to inform her there's little danger of that ever happening, but that would be trolling the wank.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]quettaser, 2006-10-15 12:34 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2006-10-16 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-16 09:07 pm UTC

[info]alpheratz
2006-10-15 12:29 am UTC (link)
I reeeeaaally want to hear his take on Neil Gaiman's numerous derivative works, especially his Sherlock Holmes/Lovecraft crossover. And then Neil would deliver a glorious, impossibly polite smackdown on his blog, and the world would be beautiful again.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2006-10-15 12:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alpheratz, 2006-10-15 12:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onaga, 2006-10-15 12:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miraba, 2006-10-15 01:58 am UTC
It IS awful cold in Minnesota... - [info]fevered_ego, 2006-10-15 02:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]visp, 2006-10-15 02:55 am UTC
... - [info]alpheratz, 2006-10-15 03:13 am UTC
... - [info]bitch_ass_hoe, 2006-10-15 04:18 am UTC
crap, screwed it up - [info]visp, 2006-10-15 03:02 am UTC
... - [info]qem_chibati, 2006-10-15 03:19 am UTC
... - [info]visp, 2006-10-15 03:52 am UTC
... - [info]qem_chibati, 2006-10-15 04:03 am UTC
... - [info]hallidae, 2006-10-15 03:20 am UTC
Re: It IS awful cold in Minnesota... - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 07:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 04:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-10-15 12:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alpheratz, 2006-10-15 12:53 am UTC
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... - [info]quettaser, 2006-10-15 02:14 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]doyle, 2006-10-15 01:43 am UTC
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... - [info]alpheratz, 2006-10-15 02:15 am UTC
... - [info]felinephoenix, 2006-10-15 09:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-15 01:52 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]alpheratz, 2006-10-15 02:16 am UTC
... - [info]fevered_ego, 2006-10-15 02:50 am UTC
... - [info]alpheratz, 2006-10-15 02:53 am UTC
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... - [info]drakyndra, 2006-10-15 06:08 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]karmyn75, 2006-10-17 02:36 pm UTC

[info]squeakytoy
2006-10-15 12:31 am UTC (link)
Aside from the fact that reading an excerpt isn't indicative of the whole book, dissing anything in a fantasy novel without having the whole picture behind the reasoning for it is plain ridiculous to me, personally.

In short, she knows it's a copyright violation - and reading it and not stopping it is tantamount to LOSING her copyright protection.

What about not reading it and not stopping it? Because that seems to be Ms. Novik's stance on fanfic.

These days, most writers are aware of fanfic, and it seems that most are aware they can't stop it. Other than taking action against archives that feature underage sex, there's not much to do about it other than avoid reading it so there aren't any accusations of plagiarism.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-10-15 12:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkeyes, 2006-10-15 02:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-10-15 02:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]selphiroth, 2006-10-15 06:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2006-10-15 05:04 pm UTC

[info]isntitironic
2006-10-15 12:49 am UTC (link)
Well, I've sort of stopped writing fanfic since I started working on a novel, but that's because novels are damn hard time-consuming work.

I have a question for the enlightened Mr. Goldberg - if I have on my hard drive somewhere a collection of short stories about my characters that I had fun writing but would not want considered canonical... is that 'allowed'?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sarcastic_elf, 2006-10-15 09:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 08:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarcastic_elf, 2006-10-20 01:25 am UTC

[info]sisterelwood
2006-10-15 01:18 am UTC (link)
Lee Goldberg... my brain... it screams. I do enjoy that other writers are starting to kindly tell him to piss off. xD

(Reply to this)


[info]khym_chanur
2006-10-15 01:38 am UTC (link)
Why do people who hate fanfic keep mixing up the issues of fanfic's literary merit (or lack thereof), fanfic's ethical status, and fanfic's legal status?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-15 01:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]einini, 2006-10-15 02:00 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 03:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]einini, 2006-10-15 03:39 am UTC
:D - [info]kadath, 2006-10-15 03:13 am UTC
Re: :D - [info]einini, 2006-10-15 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-10-15 02:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]innsmouth_eyes, 2006-10-15 04:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2006-10-15 04:52 am UTC
(no subject) - ealusaid, 2006-10-15 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]innsmouth_eyes, 2006-10-15 05:06 am UTC
... - [info]number13baby, 2006-10-16 12:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2006-10-15 06:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarcastic_elf, 2006-10-15 09:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2006-10-15 10:15 pm UTC

[info]aerobot
2006-10-15 01:49 am UTC (link)
Either the reporter is mis-characterizing her views or Novik has significantly changed her very liberal attitudes on the subject since becoming an author herself.

Oh, so she thought fanfic was okay until SHE SAW TEH LIGHT?

*chorus of hallelujua*

And hey, there's an old friend of mine on Naomi's LJ. *waves at her*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 02:49 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-10-15 02:22 am UTC (link)
Naomi could smack me upside the head and I would still make her pancakes.

(Reply to this)


[info]quettaser
2006-10-15 02:22 am UTC (link)
While it is certainly possible that the Times could misquote someone as egregiously as some have claimed, it's pretty damn unlikely.

Bwahahahaha. Have they forgotten Jayson Blair?

(Reply to this)


[info]khym_chanur
2006-10-15 02:31 am UTC (link)
I wonder what Goldberg thinks of "real" writers who don't mind fanfic based on their works, or worse, like the fact that there's fanfic based on their works. Does he have less respect for them than writers who hate fanfic? Or would he not consider them to be "real" writers, just like a real Scotsman doesn't put sugar on his porridge?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]aerobot, 2006-10-15 06:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hallidae, 2006-10-15 09:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]churri, 2006-10-16 12:30 am UTC

[info]mer1973
2006-10-15 02:39 am UTC (link)
Lee Goldberg really, really needs to get a life. I'd offer to take up a collection, but I doubt he'd take anything from us.

(Reply to this)


[info]tehrin
2006-10-15 02:46 am UTC (link)
Okay. I officially hate Lee Goldberg now. I just don't get the big deal. Do I get a prize for joining the anti-goldberg faction?

WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, GOLDBERG?! YES YOU ARE A FANFIC WRITER! THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND OTHER FANFIC WRITERS IS THAT YOU ARE OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED, YOU TWAT! ARE THEY YOUR CHARACTERS, NO! THEREFORE- FANFIC! ACCEPT YOUR REALITY! FUC-QUE!

*sprays herself with the hose to wash herself off* Anybody got a towel?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2006-10-15 04:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]missdaisy, 2006-10-15 04:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vergilsparda, 2006-10-15 08:55 am UTC
(no subject) - notmonkey, 2006-10-15 04:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2006-10-15 05:06 pm UTC
... - [info]singe, 2006-10-16 02:48 am UTC
... - [info]kosaginolegion, 2006-10-16 04:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tehrin, 2006-10-15 08:32 pm UTC
... - notmonkey, 2006-10-16 03:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegraddell, 2006-10-15 05:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2006-10-15 10:29 pm UTC
... - [info]janegraddell, 2006-10-16 12:10 am UTC
... - [info]astridv, 2006-10-16 03:57 pm UTC
... - [info]janegraddell, 2006-10-16 10:57 pm UTC
... - [info]janegraddell, 2006-10-16 12:21 am UTC
... - [info]khym_chanur, 2006-10-16 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yotz_fen, 2006-10-17 12:59 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 06:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iamtheenemy, 2006-10-18 10:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2006-10-15 06:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miraba, 2006-10-15 02:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2006-10-15 02:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tehrin, 2006-10-15 08:27 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-10-15 02:48 am UTC (link)
I find this all very strange
Is this "Lee Goldberg" deranged?
Spin-offs and tie-ins: how thick
To think those aren't fic!
For publication, his brain he must've exchanged.

~ LM

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tehrin, 2006-10-15 02:51 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-16 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]feenix, 2006-10-16 06:56 am UTC

[info]sorchar
2006-10-15 02:50 am UTC (link)
The only way Goldberg could be any more of a twat is if he were to get nosebleeds once a month.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jar, 2006-10-15 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]isa, 2006-10-15 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]missdaisy, 2006-10-15 04:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]isa, 2006-10-15 04:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aerobot, 2006-10-15 07:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]isa, 2006-10-15 07:57 am UTC
(no subject) - ealusaid, 2006-10-15 04:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napalmnacey, 2006-10-15 06:43 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 07:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]straykat, 2006-10-15 08:36 pm UTC

[info]livii
2006-10-15 02:56 am UTC (link)
I found a fabulous post on fanfic on Naomi's LJ a little while ago - here. If I had any interest in dragons or military novels I'd have bought her books just based on that but, frankly, just writing that sentence about the subject matter made me bored to tears. Alas.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]churri, 2006-10-16 12:33 am UTC

[info]jar
2006-10-15 03:10 am UTC (link)
Oh, Lee Goldburg. The stupid never stops around him, does it? And I will say no more because I like Naomi Novik too much and it'll just be boring tl;dr wank!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 03:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jar, 2006-10-15 03:54 am UTC

[info]lurker32
2006-10-15 03:31 am UTC (link)
Wow. He's more of a pretentious fuckhead every time he opens his mouth. How long do you suppose he can keep that up?

(Reply to this)


[info]darkrose
2006-10-15 04:28 am UTC (link)
Ah, Lee. Don't ever change.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2006-10-15 05:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2006-10-15 08:51 pm UTC

[info]saintedsin
2006-10-15 04:41 am UTC (link)
Lee Goldberg. So bitter because his job is so useless.

Really, come on. Diagnosis Murder?! My grandparents stopped watching that EONS ago.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lizbee, 2006-10-15 01:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2006-10-15 08:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saintedsin, 2006-10-15 09:05 pm UTC

[info]ladyrogue
2006-10-15 04:50 am UTC (link)
Lee, I'm sorry Peter Jackson isn't trying to make a movie based on your Diagnosis Murder books, but I'm sure your day will come. Keep up the good wank work!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]isntitironic, 2006-10-15 07:07 am UTC

[info]innsmouth_eyes
2006-10-15 04:53 am UTC (link)
See, I want to like Lee. I read his blog occasionally and when he's not talking out his ass about fanfic, I usually agree with him. He's not a bad guy. He's just got some wierd fixation going on and I can't figure it out. What's his damn problem? What started him on this? How can he be so oblivious to the striking similarities between him and the people he's fighting? I just don't get it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2006-10-15 05:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]innsmouth_eyes, 2006-10-15 07:26 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2006-10-15 09:36 am UTC
... - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2006-10-15 04:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]innsmouth_eyes, 2006-10-15 10:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2006-10-15 06:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2006-10-15 06:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2006-10-15 08:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2006-10-15 10:26 pm UTC
... - [info]shadowkitty, 2006-10-15 10:53 pm UTC
... - [info]evilsqueakers, 2006-10-16 12:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2006-10-15 06:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2006-10-15 07:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2006-10-15 04:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2006-10-16 04:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 05:34 am UTC


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