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edana_ni_emer ([info]edana_ni_emer) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2006-10-17 11:11:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:Cliquish

Tiny nummy RPer wank.
In this
post to Roleplayers on LJ, Azuresorrow complains about the frequent lack of logic in D&D campaigns, and tries to find a way to insert some, mentioning in passing that s/he has houseruled an XP system with reward for roleplaying and none for monsterslaying.

Lovecrafty takes a deeply personal offense to this, telling Azuresorrow that what s/he is playing is not D&D, saying that they must be a newbie DM to think this could possibly make any sense, and otherwise fapping his or her dear litttle head off. Azuresorrow is not far behind, saying that "let's kill them all and take their stuff" is pretty much boring, and that actual plot is far superior. Lovecrafty begs to disagree.

Let the wank commence!

For what it's worth, I'm on azuresorrow's side...




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[info]deconcentrate
2006-10-17 06:42 pm UTC (link)
I'm reminded of an old RPGNet column called Ways to Play that advocated utilizing a system similar to what Azuresorrow implemented, in a sense, and since that column is still a favorite of mine to look back on and reread fondly, I guess I'm obviously biased towards their point of view. But really, I don't care, as, well, Lovecrafty's POV makes no goddamn sense to me.

So if made an Expert in your game with Profession (Accounting) and spent every session roleplaying my character cowering in a closest hoping that monsters don't eat me, I'd advance faster that a player who didn't really have a fix on his character's personality but went out and challeneged dungeons and fought monsters and got treaure?

Wow am I glad you're not the DM of my campaign. That sounds dreadful.


THE POINT
LOVECRAFTY'S HEAD

. . . I get the real sense that Lovecrafty just wants to be internets famous, but hasn't he realized yet that trying to be an All-Star Wanker is not the way to do it?

Not that I'm objecting or anything, since he always makes the mockery so freaking easy.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 08:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ayezur, 2006-10-17 09:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]naienko, 2006-10-17 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mercutia, 2006-10-17 11:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-18 12:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]churri, 2006-10-18 02:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bardsong, 2006-10-18 08:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_clichemoth, 2006-10-19 04:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]embyquinn, 2006-10-18 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deconcentrate, 2006-10-18 01:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skarrow, 2006-10-18 03:53 am UTC

[info]wankprophet
2006-10-17 06:45 pm UTC (link)
For what it's worth, I'm on azuresorrow's side

So did azuresorrow pick you for her team, or is this just an annoying self-insert?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]narcissam, 2006-10-17 08:29 pm UTC

[info]braisinhussy
2006-10-17 06:53 pm UTC (link)
My D&D group is meeting tonight. I hope we run into something with discernible anatomy so I can be useful. Last week, we were fighting this huge undead skeleton dinosaur (or something) and I couldn't do ANYTHING.

(Yes, I have nothing to contribute to the conversation.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]wolfsamurai, 2006-10-17 07:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]braisinhussy, 2006-10-17 07:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wolfsamurai, 2006-10-17 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]braisinhussy, 2006-10-17 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scootermcgaffin, 2006-10-17 08:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2006-10-17 08:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-10-18 04:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mmanurere, 2006-10-18 05:44 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2006-10-19 12:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taktuk, 2006-10-19 01:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2006-10-19 01:38 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-20 02:17 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 05:50 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 12:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]braisinhussy, 2006-10-18 12:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vuirneen, 2006-10-18 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 05:30 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 04:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]naienko, 2006-10-17 08:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]soleta, 2006-10-17 09:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]naienko, 2006-10-17 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iris, 2006-10-18 03:15 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 05:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wolfsamurai, 2006-10-18 06:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taktuk, 2006-10-19 01:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]naienko, 2006-10-18 03:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegraddell, 2006-10-18 12:39 am UTC

[info]out_bottle
2006-10-17 06:57 pm UTC (link)
Lovecrafty again?!
But Mmmooommm! We have that every night!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sisterelwood, 2006-10-17 08:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]out_bottle, 2006-10-17 09:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sisterelwood, 2006-10-17 10:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]out_bottle, 2006-10-17 10:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sisterelwood, 2006-10-17 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-18 12:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sisterelwood, 2006-10-18 04:21 am UTC

[info]wolfsamurai
2006-10-17 07:04 pm UTC (link)
I came so close to wanking on this because I wanted to bitchslap both sides. Azuresorrow has a point, but gods, s/h/it comes across as being as obnoxious as Lovecrafty.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 08:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bitca, 2006-10-17 08:50 pm UTC
I think the map is the best part. - [info]puipui, 2006-10-17 09:15 pm UTC
Re: I think the map is the best part. - [info]bitca, 2006-10-17 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kahteh, 2006-10-17 11:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esclaramonde, 2006-10-17 11:31 pm UTC
The world is full of stupid people
[info]dragoness_e
2006-10-17 07:08 pm UTC (link)
That was a stupid argument. "House Rules" have been a custom of tabletop D&D since the days of Chainmail. Every DM does things differently; arguing about what house rules you use is like arguing that your favorite food is better than his favorite food.

If you don't like a DMs house rules, you don't play in his game. Simple.

In my spouse's games, stupidity gets you killed in nasty ways. 'Stupidity' includes doing irrational things on the assumption that the DM or scenario will bail you out just because you're the protagonists. I tend to agree with the point of view, because I don't like encouraging stupidity, but am more easy-going because I hate killing off characters and making players cry.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: The world is full of stupid people - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 07:22 pm UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 07:58 pm UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - [info]goblin, 2006-10-18 03:04 pm UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - [info]empyrealdragon, 2006-10-17 11:36 pm UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - [info]vuirneen, 2006-10-18 01:14 am UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - [info]churri, 2006-10-18 02:50 am UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - [info]rosehiptea, 2006-10-18 06:47 am UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - [info]dragonfangirl, 2006-10-18 11:28 am UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2006-10-18 12:19 pm UTC
Re: The world is full of stupid people - [info]wrongly_amused, 2006-10-18 06:24 pm UTC
Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another
(Anonymous)
2006-10-17 07:31 pm UTC (link)
I got kicked out when I finally got so bored after four sessions without a fight that my LE fighter walked up to a guardsmen in the King'd citadel or whatever, grabbed him, and threw him through a window. The DM accused me of being a "bad role-player" because I was under the impression that D&D inolved fucking dungeons. When I told him he was bad DM for letting a third of his group sit around with nothing to do for four weeks, he demanded it was my fault that I didn't enjoy the game the same way he does, and kicked me out of the group.

In fact, almost every bad experience I've ever had as a player has come from playing with people who were really snobby about "role-playing".


Awwww, is someone bitter?

Dude would not last a two sessions in my game. I don't tolerate bullshit like that.

-- Gourry

-- Gourry

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]kadath, 2006-10-17 07:42 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 09:02 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - dracothelizard, 2006-10-17 08:18 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 09:03 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-18 01:02 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]kylenne, 2006-10-17 09:13 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 09:26 pm UTC
Well, I tried. - [info]slackeremeritus, 2006-10-18 12:45 am UTC
Re: Well, I tried. - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 03:26 pm UTC
Re: Well, I tried. - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 12:26 am UTC
Re: Well, I tried. - [info]slackeremeritus, 2006-10-19 01:08 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]semirecluse, 2006-10-18 01:02 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - dracothelizard, 2006-10-18 01:08 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]tehrin, 2006-10-18 01:30 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - dracothelizard, 2006-10-18 01:39 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]tehrin, 2006-10-18 03:36 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]ilpalazzo, 2006-10-18 09:06 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]lady7jane, 2006-10-18 02:27 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]tehrin, 2006-10-18 06:40 pm UTC
Because somebody had to say it... - [info]female_fanboy, 2006-10-18 01:23 pm UTC
Re: Because somebody had to say it... - dracothelizard, 2006-10-18 02:43 pm UTC
Re: Because somebody had to say it... - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 06:34 pm UTC
Re: Because somebody had to say it... - [info]slackeremeritus, 2006-10-19 01:14 am UTC
Re: Because somebody had to say it... - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 01:16 am UTC
Re: Because somebody had to say it... - [info]slackeremeritus, 2006-10-19 01:35 am UTC
Re: Because somebody had to say it... - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 08:58 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]bitca, 2006-10-17 08:51 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]embyquinn, 2006-10-18 02:03 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]churri, 2006-10-18 02:52 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 06:00 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]dragonfangirl, 2006-10-18 11:30 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]digigirl132, 2006-10-18 04:28 am UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 03:31 pm UTC
Re: Wherein Lovecrafty clarifies his bitching to another - [info]akilika, 2006-10-19 04:26 am UTC

[info]kadath
2006-10-17 07:41 pm UTC (link)
I love to hate Lovecrafty, but in this case, it's just a play style disagreement that neither party will acknowledge. And, really, if you don't wanna kill shit for loot at least some of the time, D&D is not your game.

(PS Has he turned in his Lovecraft fandom membership card yet?)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2006-10-17 10:44 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-10-17 08:01 pm UTC (link)
The first question I want to ask of all wankers involved is...Speaking as a D&D player myself, why the hell are you looking for logic in D&D? This is the game with a monster that seems to be genetically adapted to graph paper.

~~ Anonyrat

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]beckyh2112, 2006-10-18 01:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wolfsamurai, 2006-10-18 02:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]runrunmarch, 2006-10-18 02:34 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 08:34 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 04:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 07:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]polly_parrot, 2006-10-21 11:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beckyh2112, 2006-10-21 05:14 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-10-17 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Bullshit. A superior system is one that rewards equally for both the roleplaying and the monster killing. Old World of Darkness comes close, but it's almost TOO story-oriented.

Anyways, that's what this anonymous has to say.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]digigirl132, 2006-10-18 04:24 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 12:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]digigirl132, 2006-10-19 12:22 am UTC

[info]isa
2006-10-17 08:17 pm UTC (link)
Would anyone mind giving me a primer on Lovecrafty here? I know I recognize the name, but the computer here ar work doesn't seem to like the Wiki or any attempts to search the archives and I'd love some brain candy to make the day go faster.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-17 09:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hallidae, 2006-10-18 12:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]isa, 2006-10-19 06:32 am UTC

[info]caffeine_fairy
2006-10-17 08:33 pm UTC (link)
That's a whole bunch of tl:dr right there. [info]lovecrafty - don't ever change.

(Reply to this)


[info]evanwaters
2006-10-17 09:15 pm UTC (link)
Little subwank from Lorax:

Ah, D&D is a war game, not a roleplaying game. Trying to pretend that the focus is roleplay is an experiment in futility. I mean, read the chargen process - it starts with race, stats mods, feats, skills, THEN gets to the "roleplay" aspect of alignment and personal touches. The focus is the mechanics ability of the PC, not the personality. D&D forums are filled with much more mechanics discussions than roleplay pointers. Supplemts published and written by the current designers focus on the mechanics advantage of a class/race, not the roleplay aspects. The fact that a battlemap is intended reinterates the war game mechanics focus.

No, D&D is a wargame. There may be people who roleplay in it, but the majority of the time, the majority of the rules, and the majority of the focus and appeal is the wargame-esk, goal driven desire for more/better loot, higher levels, and more mechanics power - NOT a creative roleplay experience.


"It may have invented the RPG, it may involve controlling an individual character and making decisions based on what you think that character would do, it may involve a gamemaster who sets up a situation and adjucates the rules, but it has minis and maps, so it's a wargame."

Silly, silly, silly.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2006-10-17 09:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ryuutchi, 2006-10-17 10:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 12:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2006-10-18 04:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wolfsamurai, 2006-10-18 05:21 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 09:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_clichemoth, 2006-10-19 05:11 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-19 05:26 am UTC

[info]kylenne
2006-10-17 09:16 pm UTC (link)
This wank's been going on since OD&D and is not likely going away any time soon. I'm almost disappointed no one pulled out the ROLEPLAYING NOT ROLLPLAYING line.

It is fun to look at old issues of Dragon and read Gary Gygax's wanktastic screeds against "amateur thespians", though.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2006-10-17 09:51 pm UTC (link)
I use D&D to field test the world building of my stories. I figure if my characters and settings can handle a bunch of weirdo's running around lose then I've put it together properly.

And third edition belongs in a pit trap.

(Reply to this)


[info]ruby_tuesday
2006-10-17 09:53 pm UTC (link)
I know shit about D&D and I'm with [info]azuresorrow just because [info]lovecrafty's consisten pretention pisses me the hell off.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ruby_tuesday, 2006-10-17 09:53 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-10-17 09:55 pm UTC (link)
off topic: I love how the LJ-spellcheck suggests that when I typed Cuthulhu I meant Catholic.

I found that unduly hilarious.

...

Is it obvious that I've been skipping over a lot of the longer comments? : D;

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2006-10-18 07:41 am UTC

[info]ryuutchi
2006-10-17 10:12 pm UTC (link)
So what does that leave your players to do? They have to jump through hoops to please you, and then you hand out arbitrary rewards based on how special you think they are. And of courser the best RPs are...the ones who stick to your storyline. I've been playing for 20 years, I've seen it a dozen times.

Well, yes. You stick to the storyline, with the assumption that interesting thing occur. Like in a book. You know? You read the story because the author does neat things. Your characters follow the plot because then cool things happen to them.

My GMs always gave everyone a base amount of XP for playing, and added extra points if we did something really neat.

But I like Exalted, and that has a nice balance of role-playing and kicking ass.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 12:07 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 01:46 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evanwaters, 2006-10-18 01:21 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 03:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 08:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ryuutchi, 2006-10-18 08:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]silrana, 2006-10-18 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ryuutchi, 2006-10-18 11:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pointandlaugh, 2006-10-19 12:31 am UTC

[info]wal_lace
2006-10-17 11:26 pm UTC (link)
Everything I know about D&D I learned from the Order of the Stick. But I know Belkar the Halfling bumped his experience up by angsting about how he never got to murder anyone as a child, and it seemed to make sense.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]braisinhussy, 2006-10-18 12:04 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 03:16 am UTC

[info]esclaramonde
2006-10-17 11:29 pm UTC (link)
Lovecrafty's excessively condescending, but Azuresorrow manages to say "Nuh-uh, YOU are!!!" about three times that I saw, so they are both unmitigated WANKERS.

Was interesting reading, though.

(Reply to this)


[info]semirecluse
2006-10-18 01:06 am UTC (link)
Oh, [info]lovecrafty.

(Reply to this)


[info]velvet_mace
2006-10-18 02:55 am UTC (link)
Why does Lovecrafty even play RPs? Sounds like he'd be much happier with first person shooter games, and leave all that annoying "role playing" behind. RPing is more than just rolling the funny dice and writing meaningless numbers onto a soda stained peice of paper. It's living a story with other people.

I mean, dude -- the golds not real. There's no bragging rights to being level 12. In fact, level up too much and you have to retire your character because you are practically a god. And after a while, roll, hack, kill, roll, hack, kill gets really boring.

I'm glad all my GM's were Azuresorrow's sort -- the kind that rewards intelligence and initiative, and punishs ooc stupidity, and the point of the game wasn't to kill monsters or get gold but to accomplish an interesting mission.

(Reply to this)


[info]ladylance
2006-10-18 07:27 am UTC (link)
I think there's room for balance in any kind of system--one that rewards both roleplaying and monster slaying, because too much in any one direction can get a little stale.

Of course, what I said is true if that's what the group that is playing wants. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do an almost pure dungeon hack for several sessions, then a RP intensive campaign the next.

IMHO, the system the DM reates is only "wrong" if they go out of the way to create a system that is the antithesis of what the campaign seems to be-like creating one rewarding fighting when you have a group full of clerics out on a mission to help a town ravaged by a mysterious plague incited by the gods.

(Reply to this)


[info]darkrose
2006-10-18 07:37 am UTC (link)
Lovecrafty's a git, but then, Azuresorrow really should be playing Goth: The Angsting, because when you get right down to it, there are two goals in D&D:

1. Kill shit.

2. Steal stuff.

Sure--give RPing awards, but be aware that at the end of the day, she who wins is she who's killed the most things and stolen the most stuff.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-10-18 03:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady7jane, 2006-10-18 04:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]silrana, 2006-10-18 11:07 pm UTC

[info]faemageforsaken
2006-10-18 06:07 pm UTC (link)
"If that's the case, then why should one made-up logic be any better than another?"

In theory, no one is better than any other one, though in reality the specific made-up logic is adopted because it lends itself to easy and satisfying game play.


Ah, yes, there's nothing more satisfying than rolling that d20 and asking the DM, "Is it dead yet?"

(Reply to this)



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