*insert obligatory disclaimer about first-time posting, and the fact that I'm not sure if this qualfies as wank, blah, blah, blah, wank, wank, wank.*

Here's another Lord of the Rings wank for y'all. And in the center stage is- <a href="http://www.henneth-annun.net/">Henneth Annun</a> and it's companion <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Henneth_Annun/"</a>Yahoo! group.</a>

I'm cutting the rest of this- bewarned, I'm c&p-ing whole list mails, so it's a long one. My comments are in bold.
<lj-cut>
It's always been MHO that HA was incredibly wanky by default. I mean, any archive that screens fics for 'quality' is. I don't even get emails from the list anymore, because I couldn't stand the wank. So imagine my (un)suprise when I stumbled across some still steaming wank while checking up on the list messages. (I happened to be checking to see if a kerfluffle had started over a trashy interspecies fic one of my friends had submitted to the archives to get a rise out of them. Who says it's a bad idea to throw stones at beehives?)

<b>The kerfluffle starts off when Regina makes a fairly innocuous post in response to some sort of discussion about hobbits. (The message archives are way too vast for me to find out which one)</b>
So I admit that when I write about hobbits amongst
themselves without other races interacting, I bring a
lot of my own experience to the table. I just don't
see them as cutesy or all that childlike; I picture
them as very kind-hearted & loving, & non-violent to
each other, but also as vulnerable to the seven deadly
sins (particularly lust, gluttony, & envy) as the Big
Folk. I try very hard to infuse hobbit-only fics with
something of the spirit of a Victorian village comedy
of manners. Obviously, this isn't everyone's cup of
Earl Grey, but like JRRT, I find it
amusing--especially if said comedy may have a wizard,
dwarf, or some kind of magic interrupting.

Regina

I have follow-up questions to my previous post that I've been
thinking about today:

1. Why is it that researching the lifestyle of hobbits & the Shire
is more intimidating than, say, swordfighting, the Sindarin language,
etc.?

2. Is there something additional (better description?)that writers of
Hobbitfic (like myself) can do to make this aspect of M-e more
understandable and/or interesting to readers who are not hobbit fans?

3. If in fact many other writers at HA do not have knowledge of
farming, animal husbandry, cooking, gardening, & the like, would it
be helpful for those of us who do to make up lists of books & other
reference material that would help in research?

I really am curious, because I would like to help if I can, as well
as doing a better job of communicating the importance of hobbits
within M-e (IMHO).

Thanks!

<b>There then follows several messages about why the message-writers do not like Hobbit fics. The reasons A) the Hobbits are not complex B)the fics are "cute" C)Hobbit writers write cute fics. (I find this ironic, because it's a list of the reasons I like fluffy hobbit fics). However, things heat up when Ariel (who has a lot of wankage just by herself) chimes in with this bit of self-promotion:</b>
Very good posts from those concerned... but may I interject some
sobering thoughts...

I have never written a 'cute' hobbit story... I write my hobbits as
mature, sexually active (and het) beings with trials and tribulations
just like any other person... I write BOOK hobbits - and my Frodo, when
he's not AU, is a believable 50 year old. For crying out loud, I just
wrote a fic where a father hobbit nearly beat his own son to death! -
Hardly 'cutesy'.

Unfortunately, my types of stories are not the norm - but because
non-hobbit loving people have made up their mind about hobbit stories,
they aren't usually willing to read another one to give it a shot.
They've 'seen' it all... And then, on the other hand, people who like
and read those cutesy hobbit stories read mine and consider them too
dark and too angsty. I lose on both ends... by failing to give what is
expected. And then I hear that people don't like what is 'expected' and
want something new! *Pulls hair out* It is enough to try the patience
of an Ent!

Just for the record, I'm not a whiny ho-hum author begging for readers.
I could care less what you folks read, but I hate being tarred with this
'cutesy' brush just because I write hobbit stories. Every gen story
I've ever submitted to HASA has been accepted (9/9 for the ones that
were accepted since the new system) so you can probably assume I can
write legibly. The ones that haven't been were stories that more pushed
the envelop of what people 'expect' a hobbit fic to be. I can assure
you my writing style does not change markedly when going from general
high angst to something that dares to suggest that hobbits might
actually desire the opposite gender. I can only assume topics that
depart more from what people 'expect' from a hobbit fic are not well
received, no matter what you claim.

If you want to see a different kind of hobbit story, then support and
encourage those who write them. There are LOTS of good, non-cutesy, non
fluff hobbit stories out there - but when no one reads them or comments
on them, those who write them are likely to start catering to the
audiences they know are out there, writing cutesy hobbits, H/C,
infantile Frodo or slash. There are a few writers out there like me who
write for the pleasure of writing and will keep writing what they like
no matter what the audience says, but we are few and far between. MOST
authors need to know that what they are writing is wanted or they won't
continue so if you want to see something different, support it.

Ariel

<b>Now, I have never had the oppurtunity to read any of Ariel's fics that are in the HA archives, but I assume they're good, because it's hard for hobbit fic to be accepted. (At least, it was when I was more actively involved, p'raps things have changed?) But, the stories which she claims are "not expected for hobbits" are actually horrific Mary Sues. See, she belongs to a role-play called <a href="http://www.frodosharem.org/history.htm">Frodo's Harem</a>. Yep. You read that right. And her fics are based on that roleplay. You can find them <a href="http://www.frodosharem.org/cgi-bin/Stories/stories.cgi">here</a> by sorting by author. I'll let them speak for themselves.

Dagmar Jung then replied:</b>
Ariel wrote:

>Unfortunately, my types of stories are not the norm - but because
non-hobbit loving people have made up their mind about hobbit stories,
they aren't usually willing to read another one to give it a shot.

Could be worse, if you mined the Legolas vein instead of writing Hobbits. And
yet even (good) Legolas stories find their readers, and it IS more of a problem
to find a quality Legolas fic under the heaps of Sues/badslash stories. Fanfic
readers of all tastes must do some gold-digging, and they usually do, because
now and then there is a gem amidst all the rubbish.


>Just for the record, I'm not a whiny ho-hum author begging for readers.
I could care less what you folks read, but I hate being tarred with this
'cutesy' brush just because I write hobbit stories.

When did that happen? Surely not in this ongoing discussion. Do you refer to
general comments about your stories (as in FFNet reviews)? Or to reviewers
decisions here at HASA?

>Every gen story
I've ever submitted to HASA has been accepted (9/9 for the ones that
were accepted since the new system) so you can probably assume I can
write legibly. The ones that haven't been were stories that more pushed
the envelop of what people 'expect' a hobbit fic to be. I can assure
you my writing style does not change markedly when going from general
high angst to something that dares to suggest that hobbits might
actually desire the opposite gender.

So that means you feel there is a bias not so much against Hobbit stories in
general, but especial against het romance Hobbit stories? As opposed to general
and slash Hobbit stories? Did I get that right?


>If you want to see a different kind of hobbit story, then support and
encourage those who write them. There are LOTS of good, non-cutesy, non
fluff hobbit stories out there - but when no one reads them or comments
on them, those who write them are likely to start catering to the
audiences they know are out there, writing cutesy hobbits, H/C,
infantile Frodo or slash. There are a few writers out there like me who
write for the pleasure of writing and will keep writing what they like
no matter what the audience says, but we are few and far between

Now here I disagree. I am not an author myself, but I cannot imagine that
fanfic authors begin to write their fics just "for the audience" instead
primarily for themselves. For example in writing slash instead of het because
they hope to attract more readers, even when they dislike slash, or write Elves
when their heart is with Hobbits.
I would say authors who "write for the pleasure of writing and will keep
writing what they like no matter what the audience says" is quite close to a
definition of a fanfic author.
(It certainly is true for every Mary Sue-writing fangirl :-) )
Why should they waste time to write what they NOT like? No one gets paid.


The reason that so many less desirable fics are out there is that people
write ECACTLY what they like and find an audience for just another story where
Frodo breaks his leg/catches chicken disease/is raped by villains and must be
nursed back to health over sixty pages.
I do not believe that these stories are written by authors who can do better
and despise them in their heart, but write them nevertheless just to get an
audience.

I am also positive that unusual, orginal fiction has an audience. Just to
name an example, Anglachel's "Legacy" surely pushes the boundaries of
"expected" Hobbit fiction a lot, but has gotten much praise, including an
Mithril Award.


Dagmar

<b>Then Ariel completely flies off the handle, even dragging in HA's elitism (which I happen to agree with her on, but it's never really bothered me):</b>
> When did that happen? Surely not in this ongoing discussion.
> Do you refer to general comments about your stories (as in
> FFNet reviews)? Or to reviewers decisions here at HASA?

Dear me, were you not reading the posts that predated mine? Here were
people claiming that 'hobbit stories' were generally cutesy and
uninteresting, and I offered my own works as example of stories that
weren't - though there are plenty of others out there that aren't cutesy
either.

>> >Every gen story
I've ever submitted to HASA has been accepted (9/9 for the ones that
were accepted since the new system) so you can probably assume I can
write legibly. The ones that haven't been were stories that more
pushed
the envelop of what people 'expect' a hobbit fic to be. I can assure
you my writing style does not change markedly when going from general
high angst to something that dares to suggest that hobbits might
actually desire the opposite gender.

> So that means you feel there is a bias not so much against Hobbit
stories in general, but especial against het romance Hobbit stories? As
opposed to general and slash Hobbit stories? Did I get that right?

Well, I think you know perfectly well that you missed the point there.
Funny how you folks seem to demand concrete examples of something and
then try and veer off the subject by poking totally unrelated holes in
the examples. That's an old lawyer's trick and I find it insulting that
you would use it on me. The point is and always was, if you don't like
the type of hobbit story that is being produced, then perhaps try a
carrot instead of a stick... quit BITCHING about what you don't like in
certain types of fics, and start telling those who do write what you
like that you support them. Was that so hard to understand?


> Now here I disagree. I am not an author myself, but I cannot
imagine that fanfic authors begin to write their fics just "for the
audience" instead primarily for themselves. For example in writing slash
instead of het because they hope to attract more readers, even when they
dislike slash, or write Elves when their heart is with Hobbits.
I would say authors who "write for the pleasure of writing and will
keep writing what they like no matter what the audience says" is quite
close to a definition of a fanfic author.
(It certainly is true for every Mary Sue-writing fangirl :-) )
Why should they waste time to write what they NOT like? No one gets
paid.

Ah, at least with this paragraph you are speaking to me instead of down
at me. How refreshing. You may not be able to imagine it, but I have
seen it happen. Usually it isn't the case of people changing what they
write so much as moving out of a particular fandom or out of fanfic
altogether. People may write what they want to write, but without
feedback they will not usually produce more than the fic or two that's
in their heart before moving on.

> The reason that so many less desirable fics are out there is that
people write ECACTLY what they like and find an audience for just
another story where Frodo breaks his leg/catches chicken disease/is
raped by villains and must be nursed back to health over sixty pages.
I do not believe that these stories are written by authors who can do
better and despise them in their heart, but write them nevertheless just
to get an audience.

Neither do I, but if you don't think hundreds of screaming fangirls
reading those fics and begging for more and then writing the same dreck
they read doesn't help to spawn the thousands of same ilk stories, you
are kidding yourself.

> I am also positive that unusual, orginal fiction has an audience.
Just to name an example, Anglachel's "Legacy" surely pushes the
boundaries of "expected" Hobbit fiction a lot, but has gotten much
praise, including an Mithril Award.

While I have my own issues with that particular fic, one fanfic does
not a fandom make... can you list any others that you have lauded?
Preferably ones that are from someone outside your little circle? If
this is the type of story you like, why aren't you doing more to
encourage other writers of these types of works? Or do you think one
author and one 'hobbit' story is enough?

And before you go and try and say that this list and the HASA do try and
help new authors, let me just say that the attitudes I have seen
presented towards people who have made comment during the past few days
from several of the HASA administrators would not encourage me in the
slightest. People have brought forth concerns about bias and reviewers
who go rogue and the contempt in some of the responses they got was
almost palpable. They have been dismissed, told to put up or shut up,
and goaded into making accusations which could have violated the site's
own code of conduct. As a user of the service provided by HASA, I would
NOT feel very confident that even a VALID claim would be taken seriously
by the admins. As any customer service representative would tell you,
if you want to keep your business, then keep the customers happy. This
does NOT mean catering to their every whim and approving every fic that
little Suzi writes, but it DOES mean treating the 'customers' with a bit
of respect... something I have not seen all that much of lately.

Ariel

<b>Several list members then try to smooth her ruffled feathers. (I'll spare you the banalities. Ariel responds with an almost wank-free post:</b>
While I may have interpreted snide from Dagmar's post, and responded in
kind, I have not been impressed with the treatment folks have been
getting here lately. I don't usually like to stoop to that level and
that this whole mess has incited me to do so makes me angrier still...
This is fanfiction, for crying out loud... we are in this for fun (I
would hope), not to tell each other how bad our chosen genre's are.

Ariel

<b>insert some more people explaining that whatever got her riled was not intended to do so- and what do they get back? "Well, I <i>tried</i> to prevent you people from making me lose my temper!"</b>

Yes, you are absolutely right... I DID respond to a comment made as to
why someone didn't like hobbit fics... I responded in a positive manner
replying why I DID like them... I also asked people to write something
similar on why they liked elf fics (or men fics, or dwarf fics, etc)
because I was genuinely interested and was trying to take the
conversation in a positive direction. Less 'why I don't like so and so'
and more 'why I DO like whatever'. It was a try at diffusing both my
irritation and the heated subject. Unfortunately, few took me up on it.


I'd still love to see someone's poetically phrased treatise on why they
DO like elves, or Silmfics, or men fics... Who knows, maybe I'll be
moved to convert? :p

Ariel

<b>A response from Adrienne to one of Ariel's earlier posts:(I nearly cheered at it- I'm a mod at an exclusively hobbit-centric group, and she was a pain in the arse for the first few weeks).</b>

Ariel wrote:

>While I have my own issues with that particular fic, one fanfic does
>not a fandom make... can you list any others that you have lauded?
>Preferably ones that are from someone outside your little circle? If
>this is the type of story you like, why aren't you doing more to
>encourage other writers of these types of works? Or do you think one
>author and one 'hobbit' story is enough?
>
I've been largely silent up until now, given that I don't read or write
Hobbits, but you're out of line here, Ariel. First, your crack about
"little circles" is ridiculous and unfounded. Second, it's not anyone's
obligation at HASA or any other fanfic site to help other writers if
they don't want to. You've always seemed to feel that you are entitled
to more assistance than anyone else on this list, both from the Admins
and from other writers. The plain facts are that you write in a genre
that's just not that popular. It's not bad stuff, but you can't *force*
people to like what you write. If you want to pander by writing what
others like, I don't have much respect for that either.

>And before you go and try and say that this list and the HASA do try and
>help new authors, let me just say that the attitudes I have seen
>presented towards people who have made comment during the past few days
>from several of the HASA administrators would not encourage me in the
>slightest. People have brought forth concerns about bias and reviewers
>who go rogue and the contempt in some of the responses they got was
>almost palpable. They have been dismissed, told to put up or shut up,
>and goaded into making accusations which could have violated the site's
>own code of conduct. As a user of the service provided by HASA, I would
>NOT feel very confident that even a VALID claim would be taken seriously
>by the admins. As any customer service representative would tell you,
>if you want to keep your business, then keep the customers happy. This
>does NOT mean catering to their every whim and approving every fic that
>little Suzi writes, but it DOES mean treating the 'customers' with a bit
>of respect... something I have not seen all that much of lately.
>
>
Do you even know how hard the Admins work to keep HASA going? Do you
know how much they care about *every* issue that is raised on this list
and in the forums? I assure you having once been an admin that all the
recent discussions and allegations are being taken *very seriously*. No
matter what the current and former Admins and tech support people do,
there is a clique of people on this list who would like *nothing better*
than to destroy HASA. They're out to do it through innuendo and
unfounded allegations. When informed of the formal grievance system in
place (which has provisions for impartial review of grievances if you've
ever bothered to read it, which I doubt) suddenly they're not interested
anymore.

Believe me, if anyone ever made a formal complaint through the system
that is in place, it would be taken very seriously. Every time one of
these flaps comes up, the admins try their best to fix the system in
ways that will benefit everyone. The first time, the grievance process
was added. The second time, the review system was revamped to make it
nearly impossible for block-voting to take place. What exactly is it
that you want done this time? If it's respect, I'm sorry but you have to
earn that. It can't be granted to you by a change to the system.

Adrienne

<b>more Ariel</b>
> I've been largely silent up until now, given that I don't read or
write
> Hobbits, but you're out of line here, Ariel. First, your crack about
> "little circles" is ridiculous and unfounded. Second, it's not
anyone's
> obligation at HASA or any other fanfic site to help other writers if
> they don't want to. You've always seemed to feel that you are
entitled
> to more assistance than anyone else on this list, both from the
Admins
> and from other writers. The plain facts are that you write in a genre

> that's just not that popular. It's not bad stuff, but you can't
*force*
> people to like what you write. If you want to pander by writing what
> others like, I don't have much respect for that either.

Little circles is my impression... whether it be unfounded or not, it is
still my impression. And as for asking more help than anyone else, I
haven't asked for ANYTHING from anyone since February. You can go check
my activity on the site... I have ALSO not been the one stirring this
pot - I took exception to someone saying why they didn't like hobbit
fics... and perhaps they are an unpopular genre, but that was all I was
responding to - and I responded in such a way as to show why "I" liked
hobbits. I said very little about the reviewer business - commenting on
the one fact that I had noted as questionable - but stated repeatedly
that putting up a fic for judgment means taking the results you are
given. You agree to that when you submit.

Believe it or not, I am not trying to force anyone to like my stuff... I
could have used anyone's fics as examples (and grabbed a few for another
email) but didn't figure I had the right to 'sacrifice' anyone else's
pieces to the shreds of high and indignant scrutiny. The comment was
made that 'hobbit fics are too cutesy' and I responded by saying 'no,
not all of them'. What is wrong with that? Wouldn't you defend your
genre if someone said all slash was horrible? I have NEVER decried ANY
genre... I would never even entertain saying something like that. I
have seen excellent works in all of them - and would rather compliment
them than complain about the bad ones.


> Do you even know how hard the Admins work to keep HASA going? Do you
> know how much they care about *every* issue that is raised on this
list
> and in the forums? I assure you having once been an admin that all
the
> recent discussions and allegations are being taken *very seriously*.
No
> matter what the current and former Admins and tech support people do,

> there is a clique of people on this list who would like *nothing
better*
> than to destroy HASA. They're out to do it through innuendo and
> unfounded allegations. When informed of the formal grievance system
in
> place (which has provisions for impartial review of grievances if
you've
> ever bothered to read it, which I doubt) suddenly they're not
interested
> anymore.

I can well imagine... and seriously, if I didn't care at all, I wouldn't
have said a thing. I would have made my comment about there being other
archives to post to and been on my merry way. My observation is that
the way the earlier complaints were handled did not inspire confidence.
If I was using a company whose customer service treated me the way some
of the posters were responded to, I would not be using that company in
future. I understand you guys aren't working for a company, but a
little less bile in the responses would have helped smooth things over
immensely.

> Believe me, if anyone ever made a formal complaint through the system
> that is in place, it would be taken very seriously. Every time one of
> these flaps comes up, the admins try their best to fix the system in
> ways that will benefit everyone. The first time, the grievance
process
> was added. The second time, the review system was revamped to make it

> nearly impossible for block-voting to take place. What exactly is it
> that you want done this time? If it's respect, I'm sorry but you have
to
> earn that. It can't be granted to you by a change to the system.

It is encouraging to hear that a formal complaint can be lodged if need
be. I haven't ever felt the need for one. I had one comment from a
reviewer that I could point to and say, 'wait, I can refute that
comment' but it was such a minor point it was not worth quibbling about.
As any author should, I read the rules before submitting the fic and
agreed to abide by the decision the reviewers came to. As for what
would *I* have you do to change the system, why, nothing at all! I
didn't ask for a bloody thing, except to be allowed to state that I
thought people's energy would be better spent endorsing good examples of
a particular genre rather than complaining about all the bad ones.

As for respect... What do I need HASA's respect for? I've done pretty
well without it so far. But truthfully, I think the site is the one
that must earn the respect of its patrons by the services it provides.
I have always commended the layout and software, the fics are excellent
too, but I was not really impressed with this particular show of
customer service.

Ariel

<b>From what I can see, most people just let this fall flat. Though I am now very tempted to poke the beehive and kvetch on the list about how not ALL hobbit writers who write fluff are bad. And so the great Circle of Wank continues...</b>