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dreamer_marie ([info]dreamer_marie) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2007-02-17 16:48:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:person: lee goldberg

Lee Goldberg: I Didn't Do It For the Money!
Over at Reason Magazine, Cathy Young has written an article about fan fiction in which she talks about the usual things, Shakespeare, the Internet, etc... and Lee Goldberg. Namely, that he only wrote that Monk tie-in for the money:


The vehemently anti-fanfic writer Lee Goldberg, who blogs at leegoldberg.com, is the author of several authorized novels based on the TV shows Monk and  Diagnosis Murdera contradiction he defends on the grounds that he does it only for the money.


Lee was apparently on vacation, far away from Google, which is why it took him a while to respond:

A number of people have sent me Cathy Young's thoughtful and interesting article about fanfiction.  I have written extensively on my blog about fanfiction, particularly my view that the practice of publishing it in print and on the Internet infringes on the original author's creative rights (not to mention the trademark and copyright issues). I've argued that fanfiction writers should get the permission of the author or rights holder before distributing their work. If the original author or rights holder  has no problem with fanfiction based  on their  work, then I don't either. I have also said that licensed tie-in fiction, which I have written, differs significantly on ethical and legal grounds from fanfiction because it is done with the consent, participation and supervision of the original author or rights holder. At no point have I *ever* expressed the views that she incorrectly (and I have to assume deliberately) attributed to me. It's a shame, because her article would have been far more informative, and fair, if she'd bothered to accurately reflect my actual opinions on the subject. I look forward to seeing a correction in the next issue of REASON. Do you think they will have the journalistic integrity to run a correction? Or should I assume that they have the same standards for accuracy as  Cathy Young?

Young posts an answer to Goldberg and still misses the point:


Now, on to the second part. Did Goldberg ever defend his tie-in novels on the grounds that he only writes them for the money? Sure he did, on the very same blog where he now claims to have been misrepresented. In fact, he devoted an entire post to this point on June 16, 2005: [S]omeone asked what the difference is between someone who writes tie-ins and someone who writes fanfic... beyond the fact that tie-ins are written with the consent of the author/right's (sic) holder. There's a big difference. I was hired to write DIAGNOSIS MURDER and MONK novels. It's something I am being paid to do. It's not like I woke up one morning with a burning desire to write DIAGNOSIS MURDER novels, wrote one up, and sent it off to a publisher (or, as a fanficcer would do, posted it on the web). The publisher came to me and asked me to write them. I would never write a book using someone else's characters unless I was hired to do so. It would never even occur to me because the characters aren't mine. Given a choice, I would only write novels and TV shows of my own creation. But I have to make a living and I take the work that comes my way...and that includes writing-for-hire, whether it's on someone else's TV show or original tie-in novels based on characters I didn't create. Ultimately, however, what motivates me as a writer is to express myself...not the work of someone else. That's the big difference between me and a fanficcer. Given a choice, fanficcers "write" fanfic. (The numerous italics are all in the original.)


Lee is not pleased and his cooler brother Tod steps in to defend him, calling everybody "fucktards" and making fun of Young's Xena fanfic:


4. Ms. Young says, in regards to Lee, "I singled out this argument because I found it particularly bizarre -- it's the first time I have seen paid hackwork held up as morally superior to an unpaid labor of love..." I have to agree, if only as it relates to Ms. Young's fascinating 89,000 word essay (that's an estimate) on a storyline in Xena concerning, uhm, one character and another character and god, and heavy petting and, uh, shit...I can't go on...must step away from the screen and commence with mockery...it's Xena! Now, Ms. Young, c'mon, if you're going to call Lee's tie-in novels "hack work" then what, exactly, is the artistic value of Xena, the Warrior Princess? Not to disparage the writers of Xena (or a friend of mine who actually starred in the show for a couple seasons), but it's not as if the culture shifted in their seats when Xena first debuted and thought, oh, oh, that's some groundbreaking shit, that's some stuff that's making my cathode ray fucking sizzle, that some TV that makes me have vibrant jerk off fantasies about women wearing animal skins (well, okay, score one on that point...women in pelts are hot...but then so, too, is Lorenzo Llamas). So while your essay is actually well-written (and here I admit: I've read lots of Young's essays and columns and find her frequently to be entertaining and interesting), what do we call an academic essay that explicates pure fucking drivel? Circle jerking comes to mind, but that would be inelegant of me. So, how about: Intellectual bukkake? And the moral superiority of anything depends on the morals of the person making the judgment, so, as an amoral asshole, I'm going to rule in the favor of my brother here in hopes of garnering better birthday gifts next year.

I'll be in the corner, curled in fetal position, muttering about adult behaviour.




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[info]waltraute
2007-02-18 12:21 am UTC (link)
Spacing between paragraphs makes a wank report happier, just sayin'.

And I'd hate to see poor Tod if he saw some of the other things people are writing academic discourse on. Shockingly, sometimes things that aren't that great in and of themselves are the most interesting to talk about.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dreamer_marie, 2007-02-18 12:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2007-02-18 12:28 am UTC

[info]blue_penguin
2007-02-18 12:23 am UTC (link)
I feel I should say something original and clever here, but with all the times Lee Goldberg has wanked about fanfic, all I can really do is roll my eyes.

(Reply to this)


[info]waltraute
2007-02-18 12:27 am UTC (link)
Oh, and as should be obligatory posting in all Lee Goldberg wanks:

Lee Goldberg takes on fandom and fails to make it funny. :(

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]deconcentrate, 2007-02-18 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]waltraute, 2007-02-18 02:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deconcentrate, 2007-02-18 02:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]funkyreunion, 2007-02-18 04:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mcity, 2007-02-18 06:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]suzycat, 2007-02-18 11:44 am UTC

[info]puipui
2007-02-18 12:39 am UTC (link)
Oh, Tod. You're so cool. Don't let Lee suck you over his asshat event horizon. :(

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]hallidae, 2007-02-18 12:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashenmote, 2007-02-18 02:59 am UTC

[info]knightrider
2007-02-18 12:49 am UTC (link)
Oh lee, just DIE. You aren't even funny enough to be entertaining.

Either that or you and Robin Hobb go get married and pop out twisted, fanfic-loathing larvae.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sheep, 2007-02-18 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]knightrider, 2007-02-18 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-18 03:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2007-02-18 08:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lukita, 2007-02-18 11:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2007-02-18 10:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]squib, 2007-02-18 01:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-18 05:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]squib, 2007-02-18 06:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2007-02-18 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]palefire, 2007-02-19 02:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2007-02-19 02:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]livviebway, 2007-02-20 05:45 am UTC

[info]tehrin
2007-02-18 12:56 am UTC (link)
HA. Lee Goldberg having a fit because someone wrote the truth about him.

Cathy Young, wherever you are, GODSPEED.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]silrana, 2007-02-18 02:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napalmnacey, 2007-02-18 11:57 am UTC

[info]evilsqueakers
2007-02-18 12:59 am UTC (link)
I'm confused. Who are we rooting for on this again? Both sound rather annoying, quite frankly.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sheep, 2007-02-18 01:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2007-02-18 01:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sheep, 2007-02-18 01:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2007-02-18 01:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]palefire, 2007-02-19 02:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]isobelsomething, 2007-12-28 01:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2007-12-28 01:50 am UTC

flightstothesea
2007-02-18 01:15 am UTC (link)
All I have to say is that Tod Goldberg is awesome, and I respect the fact that he realises what a douche his brother is.

(Reply to this)


[info]erototoxin
2007-02-18 01:15 am UTC (link)
It'd be better if Tod turned out to be Lee's sockpuppet.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sheep, 2007-02-18 01:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luthe, 2007-02-18 01:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2007-02-18 01:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]grapefruitzzz, 2007-02-19 01:37 am UTC

[info]brown_betty
2007-02-18 01:25 am UTC (link)
It's okay when Lee does it, because he hates himself afterwards.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]luthe, 2007-02-18 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2007-02-18 01:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luthe, 2007-02-18 03:45 am UTC
No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 05:23 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]brown_betty, 2007-02-19 05:25 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 05:39 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]brown_betty, 2007-02-19 05:41 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 05:51 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]brown_betty, 2007-02-19 05:54 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 05:59 am UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:53 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 07:02 am UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 05:51 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 06:01 am UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:03 am UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:20 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]brown_betty, 2007-02-19 06:21 am UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:26 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]brown_betty, 2007-02-19 06:27 am UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:37 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]brown_betty, 2007-02-19 06:39 am UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:48 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]brown_betty, 2007-02-19 06:58 am UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 07:00 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]arionhunter, 2007-02-19 08:50 am UTC
Re: No... - [info]yotz_fen, 2007-02-19 10:11 pm UTC
Re: No... - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 09:04 am UTC
On Sockpuppetry
[info]crysiana
2007-02-18 01:40 am UTC (link)
I am just reaffirming my love for Tod, here, though if Lee is Tod's sockpuppet, I don't think he'd be the only one. I mean, Tod is the sort that I see as having a complex but organized web of sockpuppets, the better to maintain Lee's fabricated existence.

Also: < my thoughts on fanfic >

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: On Sockpuppetry - (Anonymous), 2007-02-18 05:42 am UTC
Re: On Sockpuppetry - [info]dreamer_marie, 2007-02-18 09:30 pm UTC

[info]karmyn75
2007-02-18 02:02 am UTC (link)
Ah, Lee Goldberg wank, how I missed thee.
So, when he's not writing horrid pro-novels or insulting fanfic, he sits around googling himself? Why am I not surprised? Somebody needs to introduce him to the joys of Hermione/Ginny femmeslash or that great avengers fic involving bondage and buttsecks. Maybe then he'd loosen up some.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]msmongi, 2007-02-18 08:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karmyn75, 2007-02-18 08:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2007-02-19 04:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]karmyn75, 2007-02-19 04:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2007-02-19 07:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karmyn75, 2007-02-20 01:24 am UTC

[info]rosehiptea
2007-02-18 02:14 am UTC (link)
I read his first Monk book, actually, and I feel terribly saying this but it was... readable. Not perfect, but I finished it easily, at least. I'm not about to buy the second, though, even if he weren't a jerk.

But his idea that being paid to write a derivative work is morally superior to doing it because you like it confuses me every damn time.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]perletwo, 2007-02-18 07:02 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-18 05:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2007-02-18 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 07:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2007-02-19 07:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yotz_fen, 2007-02-19 10:15 pm UTC

[info]fernwithy
2007-02-18 02:45 am UTC (link)
Ah, yes, Lee. Fanfic-writing... it's like sex. Only okay if you do it for money.

Oh, wait.

(Writing etiquette: I don't care if you did it because you were broke and the creators of whatever thing you most hate promised to pay your rent for a year, you still say it's because you love it and are passionate about it. Also, if you're not passionate about what you're writing, why not write what you're passionate about? The money's way better in original fic, at least if it's good enough to sell. The flat-fees, work-for-hire agreements... tie-ins=not an efficient way to make a living.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mercutia, 2007-02-18 09:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fernwithy, 2007-02-18 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-18 02:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fernwithy, 2007-02-18 07:31 pm UTC

[info]firebad
2007-02-18 03:27 am UTC (link)
Hang on, can I break it down?

Young: Lee Goldberg said he writes for the money.

Goldberg: OMG, I did not! I never did!

Young: Yes you did, here's a quote.

Goldberg: ... You wrote Xena fic! Geek!

Is that about it, or am I missing deeper levels here?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]breecita, 2007-02-18 05:18 am UTC
Missing Deeper Levels? - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 05:21 am UTC
Re: Missing Deeper Levels? - [info]firebad, 2007-02-20 03:31 am UTC
Re: Missing Deeper Levels? - [info]puipui, 2007-02-20 04:51 am UTC

[info]zinkchan
2007-02-18 03:28 am UTC (link)
Oh Lee, everytime I see you frothing at the mouth about fanfic I wonder which fanficcer peed in your sandbox as a child.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]the_mouse, 2007-02-18 09:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]squib, 2007-02-18 01:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_mouse, 2007-02-18 07:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lukita, 2007-02-18 11:35 am UTC
(no subject) - ealusaid, 2007-02-19 03:48 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2007-02-18 03:28 am UTC (link)
"reader-generated stories" I'm getting the impression someone had too short an article added words to fill it up, making it far less readable. Although, I suppose, since we all do it for the feedback, technically, the readers ARE generating the stories.

In other news, Alan Rickman is still hot.

-Lys, abusing commas since 1998.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]zinkchan, 2007-02-18 03:33 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-18 06:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_mouse, 2007-02-18 09:43 am UTC

[info]snacky
2007-02-18 03:29 am UTC (link)
And that fan fiction writers begin, in earnest, writing something where I'm a character in Land Of The Lost to the point that the theme song is re-written to show that I, too, slipped through a fissure in time during the greatest earthquake ever known, but that I fuck up Sleestacks like its my job and I've got that Chaka bitch on a short rope. Literally. I keep Chaka on a chain and drag him around.

::waves frantically::

Hi Tod Goldberg, I love you! Call meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2007-02-19 08:48 am UTC

[info]luvginnyarwen
2007-02-18 04:26 am UTC (link)
tfl;dr. Someone please summarize it for me? The Benadryl's already putting me to sleep.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]knightrider, 2007-02-18 04:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luvginnyarwen, 2007-02-18 07:23 am UTC

[info]sailorjpg
2007-02-18 04:26 am UTC (link)
..it's Xena! Now, Ms. Young, c'mon, if you're going to call Lee's tie-in novels "hack work" then what, exactly, is the artistic value of Xena, the Warrior Princess?

I think he and Kevin Sorbo would get along nicely.

Not to disparage the writers of Xena (or a friend of mine who actually starred in the show for a couple seasons), but it's not as if the culture shifted in their seats when Xena first debuted and thought, oh, oh, that's some groundbreaking shit...

...
Spoke too soon. Nevermind!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]knightrider, 2007-02-18 04:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]knightrider, 2007-02-18 04:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]knightrider, 2007-02-18 04:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vigilanterodent, 2007-02-18 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]knightrider, 2007-02-18 06:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]suzycat, 2007-02-18 11:47 am UTC

[info]mastervex
2007-02-18 04:52 am UTC (link)
I love wanks involving Lee Goldberg.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-18 10:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-02-18 04:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2007-02-19 08:50 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2007-02-18 04:56 am UTC (link)
Oh, Lee. Imagine if your literary endeavours were as trite and egocentric and had such little connection with reality. Surely then we'd all stop buying them and leave you in peace to wail against the world?

Oh, yes, that's right. They are. And we have.

(Reply to this)


iwanttobeasleep
2007-02-18 05:18 am UTC (link)
So, it's okay to be a hypocrite, as long as someone is paying you for it?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Way to Miss the Point, Genius - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 05:15 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 05:37 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 05:40 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 05:54 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:13 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 06:18 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:47 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 06:55 am UTC
PS - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 05:41 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]seraphtrevs, 2007-02-19 06:11 am UTC
Re: PS - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:14 am UTC
Total bastard? - [info]seraphtrevs, 2007-02-19 06:36 am UTC
Re: Total bastard? - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seraphtrevs, 2007-02-19 06:44 am UTC
Why? - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:49 am UTC
Re: Why? - [info]seraphtrevs, 2007-02-19 06:53 am UTC
Re: Why? - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 06:57 am UTC
Re: Why? - [info]seraphtrevs, 2007-02-19 07:01 am UTC
Re: Why? - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 07:02 am UTC
Re: Why? - [info]seraphtrevs, 2007-02-19 07:07 am UTC
Re: Why? - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 07:11 am UTC
THAT'S NOT DUDGEON! - [info]seraphtrevs, 2007-02-19 07:27 am UTC
Re: THAT'S NOT DUDGEON! - [info]palefire, 2007-02-22 02:14 am UTC
Re: PS - [info]azhidahaki, 2007-02-19 06:28 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - [info]evanwaters, 2007-02-19 09:52 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - [info]tehrin, 2007-02-19 10:17 am UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - [info]yotz_fen, 2007-02-19 10:21 pm UTC
Re: Way to Miss the Point, Genius - [info]palefire, 2007-02-22 03:11 am UTC

[info]daylightsparks
2007-02-18 05:26 am UTC (link)
Lee is not homophobic, he just doesn't like the idea of Spock fucking Captain Kirk because it goes against canon. Clearly, Spock and Bones were already in an established relationship (their matching shirts indicate that) and Captain Kirk had established in episode 37 that while he was "down for whatever" that was only in regards to "Romulan cum sluts" [see episode 56], "fly ass Tribbles who like it rough, rugged and raw" [episodes 11, 56, 99, 103 and the direct to video DVD "Captain Kirk And The Trouble With Tribbles' Dribbles"] and Adrian Zmed, but only after he got the hosting gig on Dance Fever back in '85.

OH GOD I LOVE YOU TOD GOLDBERG.

I'd ask you to marry me, except then I'd end up with Lee as a brother-in-law. Eww.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sheep, 2007-02-19 01:21 am UTC

[info]varesh
2007-02-18 05:29 am UTC (link)
Ah... more whiny Goldbergisms. The pics I've seen of this guy remind me of the dorks I went to school with; dorks who tried waaay too hard for validation and to "prove themselves" as being cooler than even the OTHER dorks (like me). Face it, Goldie; you write fanfic. It wasn't *your* idea. They can shove as many bills up your arse as they want... wasn't. Your. Idea.

As if I say anything new. But I AM new, here. So hi.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nlb_muffin, 2007-02-19 03:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 05:13 am UTC
Dorks? - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 05:13 am UTC
Re: Dorks? - [info]varesh, 2007-02-19 05:36 am UTC
Re: Dorks? - (Anonymous), 2007-02-19 08:42 pm UTC
Re: Dorks? - [info]ailidh, 2007-02-19 11:10 pm UTC


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