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Lotte Claire ([info]lottelita) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2007-04-25 19:34:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:oppression, rp

Taking the Dungeon and Dragon out of Dungeons and Dragons
Wizards of the Coast announced this week that they would no longer be publishing their D&D magazines, Dungeon and Dragon. Gamers and fans reacted with calm understanding, and immediately went back about their daily lives with nary a fap to be heard.

Okay, lemme roll this d20 ... add my Bluff bonus ... see if they believed me ...

Shit! All right, I lied. WOTC's forums are awash in a sea of wank, as tiny violins play mournfully and shocked -- SHOCKED I TELL YOU -- gamers fly into Barbarian rages.

From the first-reaction thread:

This is just unfathomable,

When I read this it fealt like WotC had dragged my family dog into the street and shot it dead right in front of me.

My disgust for WotC is beyond words right now.


From the thread about WOTC's "damage control" statement:

WotC will never again see another dollar of mine. I remember the first Dungeon Magazine that came out. To do this to those fine magazines is a vile act that goes against any concern FOR the game of D&D. WotC has proven that they can't compete with the good adventure writers of Paizo and as a result decided to eliminate the competition. Well F U, WotC. My money follows Paizo, you guys crapped on Greyhawk and now this. I hope the big-wigs who did this all burn.

And:

As a matter of fact, I'm betting that this morning at 8 or 9 am, there was a rush meeting at the ol' board room, where someone picked out a bunch of recognizable names from previous DRAGON editorials, and said "calm these ****** off gamers down, or you're fired."

Well, your efforts didn't work. Good try, though.

Oh, and then there's Scott Rouse. Enough mud has been slung at his name, that he just HAD to weigh in as a gamer. He wants the WHOLE world to join hands and throw some dice together. Right.

Compared to Chris Perkins and Kim Mohan, you're a nobody? Dude. Compared to Reggie the Gaming Shop Owner with B.O. down the street, you're nobody. You're one of those kids from 7th grade who liked to grab my monster manual at lunch time to look at the pictures, and then giggle like a moron while you rolled my dice to see if you could roll better than you did three seconds ago.

It's cute to see you trying to defend yourself against those of us who know you're nothing but a poser. It's too late, however, to backpedal out of the stupid, STUPID statement you made about the internet being our primary source for information in the current day and age.


The wank's best similie award goes to:

Sounds a lot like the Bush administration's response in New Orleans to Hurricane Katrina.

And there's this classically outraged bit of TL;DR:

WotC,

Where do I begin?

You guys messed up.

Not because you killed Dungeon & Dragon print magazines but for the simple fact you completely blew the golden rule of customer service/PR, "Thou shall not disrespect your customers."

1) You treated this tremendous/painful moment (you pick your adjective) like any other announcement on your website. As if this was just a standard thing that happens every day. Its not.

2) You did not get your people out on the message boards or chat rooms when you made this announcement to answer questions and calm down fears. You did not post up what the future will bring the salve the wounds YOU created.

3) You don't have a product in place to replace the one your are killing.
You are asking us to make a leap of faith that you, WotC, will deliver electronic content, quality electronic content that we will pay for.

Your past track record on the free stuff that you provide is not that great.
So please understand that we don't really trust you when you ask us to trust you.
Lacking something tangible to show us the you should have had a least had an outline of the vision of what we are going to get from your brave new world.

So when I see your post on the web site that speaks from on high, remembering the good old days, and not really providing a clear picture of the future...
Please understand why I don't care about your fond memories of these magazines. The remoteness of these ramblings really doesn't connect with me the customer. I don't feel sympathy for you or empathize with you. Its kind of insulting.

You guys dropped the ball. Badly. Admit it publicly and start getting some information out as to what you are going use to fill the hole that you created.

Also, get ready to take some lumps because letting this fester for nearly 24 hours was really dumb.

To give you a sense of scale to the stupid factor here. You matched TSR at its crassest with this one.

Bryan Blumklotz
27 year D&D player, Reader of Dungeon and Dragon Magazines.


Eventually, we get the inevitable calls to stop overreacting, which goes over just about as well as you'd imagine:

As for some of the people here, accept? ACCEPT? Are you serious, is that the mentality you want, if someone doesn't like something different they should just bend over and accept knowing the big-brother WotC knows what's best for them?

Between the TL;DR entitlement-whoring and rhetoric on a scale that only people who swing imaginary swords at imaginary Terrasques can muster, the lolz just keep on coming.

ETA: Fixed! Fixed, I tell you!




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[info]panthea
2007-04-26 06:05 am UTC (link)
Approved, but your LJ cut is screwed. Fix plz.

(Reply to this)


[info]loonylupinlover
2007-04-26 06:05 am UTC (link)
The HTML! My eyes! *weeps*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kittenmommy, 2007-04-26 06:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]loonylupinlover, 2007-04-26 06:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kittenmommy, 2007-04-26 06:51 am UTC

[info]jim_smith
2007-04-26 06:07 am UTC (link)
Wow, I didn't know a wank report could fail the Acid2 test.

(Reply to this)


[info]cathowl
2007-04-26 06:20 am UTC (link)
The wank broke through and corrupted the code!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - pastri_archy, 2007-04-26 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhrsoulmates, 2007-04-26 06:24 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-28 04:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lottelita, 2007-04-28 04:30 am UTC

[info]misachan
2007-04-26 06:22 am UTC (link)
This is why I read Knights of the Dinner Table.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]evanwaters, 2007-04-26 07:37 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 06:00 pm UTC

[info]anonyrat
2007-04-26 06:41 am UTC (link)
I've been watching this go down. If I have time I'll dig up the thread on the WotC boards where someone accuses everyone who isn't SHOCKED! and ANGRY! about the move of being a Wizards shill.

I'm mainly surprised that people actually USE Dragon Magazine material in their games. A lot of it doesn't even seem to have been playtested.

They also did a China Mieville feature where they statted out some of the monsters in the books...and gave the slakemoths a freakin' DC 20 Will save on their hypnotic wings. Apparently if Isaac had just taken some levels in Wizard, the entirety of Perdido Street Station could have been avoided.

/gamer geekery

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2007-04-26 07:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]priestesspadfoo, 2007-04-26 07:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2007-04-28 02:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]priestesspadfoo, 2007-04-28 06:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-26 07:56 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 08:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-26 09:38 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 08:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashenmote, 2007-04-26 05:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashenmote, 2007-04-26 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 08:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashenmote, 2007-04-26 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-27 12:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2007-04-26 10:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2007-04-26 11:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]raptoe, 2007-04-26 01:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-26 05:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]torawashi, 2007-04-26 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]raptoe, 2007-04-26 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-27 04:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lottelita, 2007-04-28 04:31 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 01:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-26 05:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2007-04-26 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2007-04-27 04:05 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-29 06:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-29 07:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2007-04-28 02:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2007-04-26 04:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-26 05:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - winterfox, 2007-04-27 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 01:38 am UTC
(no subject) - winterfox, 2007-04-28 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 01:52 am UTC
(no subject) - winterfox, 2007-04-28 01:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 02:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2007-04-28 02:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 04:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beckyh2112, 2007-04-27 02:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-27 04:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2007-04-27 05:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 02:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2007-04-28 02:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2007-04-26 08:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2007-04-26 04:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashenmote, 2007-04-26 05:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]torawashi, 2007-04-26 08:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2007-04-27 07:38 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 07:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2007-04-26 08:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evanwaters, 2007-04-26 08:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2007-04-27 05:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2007-04-27 07:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 02:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lottelita, 2007-04-28 04:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 05:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lottelita, 2007-04-28 05:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 06:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]meril, 2007-04-26 07:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-26 07:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]meril, 2007-04-26 08:54 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-28 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 02:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2007-04-26 04:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-26 05:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-28 01:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xero_sky, 2007-04-26 05:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubosquared, 2007-04-28 10:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]glossing2, 2007-04-26 08:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - winterfox, 2007-04-27 12:03 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-27 12:15 am UTC
(no subject) - winterfox, 2007-04-27 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]delicfcd, 2007-04-27 07:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 02:52 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-27 09:23 am UTC

[info]ashenmote
2007-04-26 06:48 am UTC (link)
Ha! Been there done that. When the first german translation of D&D was sold, they also started a german Dragon magazine, and eventually I bought a 2 Yrs subscription and got one issue before the magazine was canceled. I never got my money back.
I still have my subscription price though. It was a miniature of Sassa, the unicorn and Ra'hall, the golden dragon. That sounded like a awesome price to have until you had to realize that Ra'hall transformed into human shape for the model session, as golden dragons are wont to do. :|

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2007-04-26 07:09 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2007-04-26 07:00 am UTC (link)
Can't even read wank...HTML making my eyes bleed.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 07:00 am UTC

[info]princessdot
2007-04-26 07:25 am UTC (link)
Uh, I'll come back when I can read it.

(Reply to this)


[info]elgato_gamgins
2007-04-26 07:26 am UTC (link)
Well, even if the games couldn't be acted out, the new races were too wacky to be even considered "real", and the fact that the cartoons weren't that clever, they were dear to my heart. *cries emo tear*

(Reply to this)


[info]sokudoningyou
2007-04-26 07:51 am UTC (link)
Wizards of the Coast have been on my shitlist ever since they sold our convention and moved GenCon to Indiana. You bastards, it was the only con in Wisconsin worth going to. And now it's not only in Indiana, but California, the UK, and Australia, because, why be original? It was the Lake Geneva Convention, not the fucking California Convention, but let's not have that stop them.

I hate them all. I am still bitter, yes I am.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-26 07:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icedark_elf, 2007-04-26 11:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]diane_duane, 2007-04-26 12:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bitca, 2007-04-26 02:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2007-04-26 02:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]diane_duane, 2007-04-27 10:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bitca, 2007-04-26 02:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]prima, 2007-04-27 02:44 am UTC

flightstothesea
2007-04-26 08:13 am UTC (link)
Oh, D&D nerds. :(

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sashenka, 2007-04-26 04:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2007-04-26 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 06:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sashenka, 2007-04-26 07:58 pm UTC

[info]white_serpent
2007-04-26 08:21 am UTC (link)
It's too late, however, to backpedal out of the stupid, STUPID statement you made about the internet being our primary source for information in the current day and age.

It isn't?

Oops.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-27 03:52 pm UTC

[info]sepiamagpie
2007-04-26 08:37 am UTC (link)
I no longer have to have you wiped out.

Excellent.

(Reply to this)


[info]napalmnacey
2007-04-26 08:38 am UTC (link)
Too high; couldn't read.

But it looks like a fantastic wank! Nobody can wank like gamers, seriously.

(Oh, and I'm not a druggie, I'm high on pain meds).

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]breecita, 2007-04-26 09:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]napalmnacey, 2007-04-26 09:08 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 09:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]breecita, 2007-04-26 09:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 06:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]breecita, 2007-04-26 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vuirneen, 2007-04-26 09:39 pm UTC

[info]manasseh
2007-04-26 08:40 am UTC (link)
When I read this it fealt like WotC had dragged my family dog into the street and shot it dead right in front of me.

I guess it's too much to hope that these people will cotton on to the fact that a magazine getting cancelled =/= the Worst Thing Ever, right?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2007-04-26 11:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]irised, 2007-04-26 11:50 am UTC
(no subject) - magpiggles, 2007-04-26 02:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarcastic_elf, 2007-04-26 03:03 pm UTC

[info]blackjackrocket
2007-04-26 09:19 am UTC (link)
I can see it. Did anyone actually *sell* that magazine any more? Even my local game shop just sold really old back issues.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]slavekitty, 2007-04-27 04:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amberwaves, 2007-04-28 06:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2007-04-28 08:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amberwaves, 2007-05-02 10:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2007-05-02 10:40 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2007-04-26 09:31 am UTC (link)
OH YAY!

Goddamn it. Session this friday is gonna suck

All my guys are going to be whining and bitchin like wannabe Prom Queen's. For that alone Wizards needs to sit and twist.

~LitaShields

(Reply to this)


[info]anonyrat
2007-04-26 09:45 am UTC (link)
I will however sit in my room, later this evening & cry. Not just for the lose of a magazine that has spanned 30 years, but also for campaign settings like Greyhawk which is only being officially supported through Dragon now. I will cry for the future writers who will not be able to break into the industry, because they aren't able to afford a super-upto date computer & an internet connection. I will cry for the hundreds of kids who will never know about dungeons & dragons because they didn't see an issue of dragon on a news stand somewhere...

Man, am I ever glad I took ranks in Perform (World's Tiniest Violin).

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 12:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vuirneen, 2007-04-26 09:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vuirneen, 2007-04-26 09:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]priestesspadfoo, 2007-04-26 02:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2007-04-26 02:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 06:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]breecita, 2007-04-26 06:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 06:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2007-04-28 02:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wrenlet, 2007-04-26 02:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lindentreeisle, 2007-04-26 04:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]monsley, 2007-04-27 12:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lindentreeisle, 2007-04-27 12:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]monsley, 2007-04-27 11:13 am UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2007-04-26 05:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]melancthe, 2007-04-26 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taktuk, 2007-04-27 05:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lottelita, 2007-04-28 04:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]palabradot, 2007-04-26 08:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2007-04-28 02:31 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-05-12 03:49 am UTC

[info]elektra3
2007-04-26 09:58 am UTC (link)
When I read this it fealt like WotC had dragged my family dog into the street and shot it dead right in front of me.

...These people don't get out much, do they?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icedark_elf, 2007-04-26 11:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hinata, 2007-04-26 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hinata, 2007-04-26 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]monsley, 2007-04-27 12:28 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2007-04-26 11:34 am UTC (link)
The wank's best similie award goes to:

Sounds a lot like the Bush administration's response in New Orleans to Hurricane Katrina.


everything else has been blamed on him compared to it, why not this. :::rolls eyes:::

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2007-04-26 05:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-27 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2007-04-27 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]moiety, 2007-04-26 08:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2007-04-27 12:02 am UTC

[info]limyaael
2007-04-26 01:16 pm UTC (link)
2) You did not get your people out on the message boards or chat rooms when you made this announcement to answer questions and calm down fears. You did not post up what the future will bring the salve the wounds YOU created.

This makes me picture WotC employees rushing through said message boards and chat rooms carrying bandages made of dice.

"BREATHE, Johnny! BREATHE! Close your eyes and think of treasure you don't have to fight for!"

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2007-04-26 09:07 pm UTC

[info]raptoe
2007-04-26 01:29 pm UTC (link)
I liked the mag.. I don't play D&D but my BF does and it was fun to see the ST get inspiration out of them and tweak it to his setting.

I can't wait until WOTC Pulls a White Wolf Gehenna..

(Reply to this)


[info]kadath
2007-04-26 02:20 pm UTC (link)
Has either Dungeon or Dragon been relevant since, oh, 1996?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 03:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2007-04-26 04:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 06:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vuirneen, 2007-04-26 09:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]breecita, 2007-04-26 06:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2007-04-26 07:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2007-04-26 09:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2007-04-28 02:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2007-04-30 08:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taktuk, 2007-04-27 05:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2007-04-27 03:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2007-04-27 04:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2007-04-27 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marsdragon, 2007-04-27 06:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2007-04-27 03:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-30 08:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2007-04-30 08:55 pm UTC

[info]lady7jane
2007-04-26 02:38 pm UTC (link)
I hope the big-wigs who did this all burn.

Uh oh. Someone's memorizing a fireball as we speak.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 03:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2007-04-26 03:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 04:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2007-04-26 05:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady7jane, 2007-04-26 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yattara, 2007-04-26 04:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-04-26 06:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady7jane, 2007-04-26 06:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]melancthe, 2007-04-26 07:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady7jane, 2007-04-26 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]monsley, 2007-04-27 11:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]luthe, 2007-04-28 04:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vuirneen, 2007-04-26 09:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taktuk, 2007-04-27 05:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lottelita, 2007-04-28 04:42 am UTC


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