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Cleolinda Jones ([info]cleolinda) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2007-11-08 22:43:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:entitlement, fandom: harry potter, internet lawyers, this is the wank that never ends

The book has been seen
Well, this answers a few questions. Previously:

TLC updates on the case, saying that "[t]he day before last, a court ordered RDR to hand a copy of the manuscript to J.K. Rowling's lawyers, and one was delivered, according to those lawyers. JKR/WB are seeking a preliminary injunction to the sale of the book, and have not apparently been deterred by viewing the manuscript. RDR has also made claims on their web site that they have "repeatedly offer[ed] to settle this case to Ms. Rowling's satisfaction and publish the book," requests which apparently have not been agreed upon. TLC has asked RDR what the settlement was and has not been met with a response." 

Praetorianguard posts another analysis, and in the comments we find out that the A-Z book accused of plagiarizing the Lexicon was also hit with a C&D, but was published after JKR's reps edited it.

WB figures out how to hit print. Exhibit A: Severus Snape. Note: This was filed Monday, when (I think?) they were still operating under the idea that the book was "typeset from the website."

New: A TLC update. "A new document authored by a recently retained lawyer for RDR claims that owing to RDR's lack of an intellectual property lawyer, status as a small publishing house (it claims sales of a little more than $100,000/year), and present plan to have legal briefs prepared by a cousin of the house's owner, a delay in responding to JKR/WB is necessary. The lawyer requested a seven-week delay, until the first week in January, which is after the current US publication date for the book. The letter notes, however, that during the delay RDR would voluntarily freeze their actions, amounting to the same results as a preliminary injunction on publication. According to the document, the application has been 'denied without prejudice to counsel for defendant and plaintiff appearing this afternoon[.]' " Update: A second update at TLC seems to indicate that it was approved, and TLC is going to try to figure out which one it is. "Also, the entire page containing previous statements by RDR regarding the Lexicon book has been deleted. The product has also been removed from pre-order on the site." Looks like a real lawyer really is on the case.

[info]auralan points out the full sentence: "Indeed, RDR's present plan is to have its briefs composed by the cousin of RDR's owner, a solo practitioner who is not himself an intellectual property lawyer, and a man who (though he has some general idea of what RDR does), will need some time to educate himself as to the facts and issues in this particular case."

ETA: The RDR page is back. The additions:

LATEST NEWS ON THE HARRY POTTER LEXICON

RDR Books Agrees to Delay Publication of Harry Potter Lexicon

Earlier today, New York Federal Court Judge Robert Patterson accepted an order proposed by RDR Books, agreeing to temporarily withhold publication of Steve Vander Ark’s Harry Potter Lexicon. The order delays the publication of this 400-plus-page book until Judge Patterson can preliminarly determine the merits of the lawsuit initiated by J.K. Rowling and Warner Bros. In a complaint filed on Halloween, the plaintiffs contend that the proposed Lexicon violates Ms. Rowling’s copyright, an allegation RDR Books denies.

Plantiffs' papers in support of its request for a preliminary injunction are due January 7. RDR’s response is due January 22. The hearing on the plantiff’s request for a preliminary injunction is set for February 6. The Lexicon, which is now in preparation, will not be published until the book is ready to be examined by the court, which will decide if it violates the rights of Ms. Rowling, one of the world’s best known authors. Ms. Rowling has suggested that the Lexicon could hurt the performance of her own encyclopedia, which she has not begun writing.

[Fan site award, etc.]

“It is ironic that publication of Steve Vander Ark's Lexicon is being threatened by Ms. Rowling after he has joined other librarians to fight organizations that have attempted to ban or curtail Ms. Rowling own work,� says RDR Books publisher Roger Rapoport. "It is our wish that Ms. Rowling join Mr. Vander Ark in his campaign for literary freedom and free expression by dropping her complaint against a book we are confident she would enjoy reading. We will continue to defend our author and the Lexicon in this David and Goliath battle with an eye toward protecting the rights of readers and writers everywhere.�

Note: The "’" characters are all original to the RDR page. I'm not sure why their apostrophes are borked, but it seems fitting that the trademark symbol's involved.

ETA 2, and it's a big one from TLC, via [info]lidane: NY Judge Issues Restraining Order to Prevent Publication of Lexicon; JK Rowling Updates. 

As stated in a public document and now on JK Rowling’s Web site a judge has issued a restraining order against publication of The Harry Potter Lexicon.

This document, signed by Judge Robert Patterson in NY, denies RDR Books’ claim to delay the matter until January and grants a restraining order for JKR/WB to prevent the book from being published or licensed anywhere worldwide until February 2008.


JKR says,

I take no pleasure in the fact that publication has been prevented for the present. On the contrary, I feel massively disappointed that this matter had to come to court at all. Despite repeated requests, the publishers have refused to even countenance making any changes to the book to ensure that it does not infringe my rights. Unless their position changes, we will all return to court next year. Given my past good relations with the Lexicon fansite, I can only feel sad and disillusioned that this is where we have ended up.

Back to TLC:

Earlier today, RDR Books issued a press release that claimed that a judge “accepted an order proposed by RDR Books, agreeing to temporarily withhold publication of Steve Vander Ark’s Harry Potter Lexicon.” The release did not mention the restraining order. A motion to delay proceedings owing to RDR Books’ need to retain and familiarize a copyright lawyer with the case was denied.

RDR Books claims on its site that the delay was voluntary and perhaps even their idea, but that contradicts what has been put forth in legal documents as well as what JK Rowling has said has occurred. Also, a source has told TLC that it was Judge Patterson’s preference to restrain the case (and therefore publication) until February, not RDR’s.

We have a copy of the judge’s letter (you can download it here). It says that the book has not been fully typeset for printing, that RDR has instructed its typesetters to cease operations, and that the book “cannot be printed and distributed to the public at this time.” The court orders that the book and all those associated with its publication cannot complete the book, typeset it, print it, distribute it, advertise it, promote it, sell it, license it, accept orders for it – not in the US or anywhere abroad. It also ordered RDR to take the book off Amazon, their own Web site, and any other means of “advertising, soliciting orders for, and distributing the book.”

[...]

You can now download here JKR/WB’s lawyers’ response to RDR lawyers’ attempt to delay the case (a delay attempt that was denied by Judge Patterson after this letter was filed).The letter notes that although RDR is a small company with limited resources, “RDR faced no such obstacles in garnering significant and international attention for itself and its book. Indeed, upon information…RDR continues to trumpet its intention to publish its book.” The letter also says “RDR has used this lawsuit as an opportunity to publicize the book and disparage my clients in the press.”

Let it be noted that SVA's side has taken issue in earlier discussions here on FW with negative characterizations of the Lexicon enterprise. elanor said at one point, "I don't believe that either side is being knowingly wrong or deceitful - there are reasons Steve believed it was okay to publish"--keep in mind that no one has actually seen communications from JKR saying "No, you may specifically not publish the Lexicon," even if she declined his help with her own encyclopedia--"and there are reasons Rowling et al would rather he didn't. They both have a point. [...] I will agree that some of the people (supposedly) representing Steve have not done him any favours." Also, "All I'm asking is that you (that's a collective 'you') try to be reasonable, accept that there is a good reason I don't say more than I do"--in fact, I agreed with this stance--"and also understand that, given the situation, there is absolutely no chance that I would risk saying something that I wasn't 100% sure of." I'm not linking to where she said this so that people don't go jump on her, but I can if credibility is at stake.

My response at the time was that it kind of comes down to a he said/she said with RDR and WB, since they both allege non-communicativeness, and that we at FW are inclined to take RDR less seriously because of comments about police states and Nagasaki and You Can't Assume What's in the Book So Why Didn't You Just Read the Website That's Not Exactly the Book or Maybe It Is. I mean, y'all can say whatever you want. Since we're here to mock, I'm just trying to present your teal deer mocking material as clearly and fairly as possible, not preside over Fandom Court or anything.

ETA 3: Someone claiming to be an RDR employee has issues with WB's side of the story as well.

ETA 4: Elanor's telling me now (she says she's allowed to say this, but please regard these as unofficial, non-binding communications) that the British cover was "a rush job just to have something and was never intended to be used. The actual cover does not look like the adult HP books, and they've had quite a lot of grief getting it changed. The British publisher regrets sending that other cover and apologised for it." Furthermore, she asks people not to assume that SVA = RDR (and with good reason, quite frankly).

ETA 5: God help us all, there's a new RDR update.
By now the story of the J.K. Rowling/Warner Bros. Halloween lawsuit aimed at Steve Vander Ark's Harry Potter Lexicon has become news from Shanghai to South Bend. More than 1,000 stories in newspapers, on wire services, television and radio have brought this David and Voldemort battle to the readers of the New York Times, MTV and the International Herald Tribune. Determined to publish this book for the benefit of Harry Potter fans everywhere, RDR Books believes Ms. Rowling who has championed the Lexicon for years will love reading the book just as much as she does the website on which it is based. While waiting for the court to decide if the book is to be published, here is interesting background on this extraordinary case that has captured the attention of readers everywhere.
Attention! Attention! Please pay it to us! Look at all the other people who are paying attention!
RDR Books Agrees to Delay Publication of Harry Potter Lexicon

On November 8th, New York Federal Court Judge Robert Patterson accepted an order proposed by RDR Books, agreeing to temporarily withhold publication of Steve Vander Ark's Harry Potter Lexicon. The order delays the publication of this 400-plus-page book until Judge Patterson can preliminarly determine the merits of the lawsuit initiated by J.K. Rowling and Warner Bros. In a complaint filed on Halloween, the plaintiffs contend that the proposed Lexicon violates Ms. Rowling's copyright, an allegation RDR Books denies.
Note: TLC said that the court papers seem to indicate that the delay was NOT RDR's idea.

[...] We have discovered that the complaint was based on a complete misunderstanding as to the contents of our proposed Lexicon.
O RLY. I wonder how that happened.
[...] We are pleased to note that many students and scholars agree with us and support our case including librarians, copyright attorneys and first amendment advocates.
Most of whom don't actually understand what's going on in the case--or only what RDR has told them, and we know what that sounds like. Case in point, linked by RDR: WHY DO YOU HATE LIBRARIANS, JKR?

ETA 6: TLC update: WB statement. “Although sad that this had to go to court, the judgement granting an order against RDR books is an important step in helping us to protect our intellectual property and at the same time, protect JK Rowling’s right to produce her own companion book to the Harry Potter series she created. Both Warner Bros. and JK Rowling are clear that this claim is a matter of infringement of copyright, not a matter of literary freedom.”

ETA 7: SVA posts again at the Lexicon. Also, I've gotten a clarification to the effect that there are two lawyers working for RDR now--the New York lawyer who wrote that last document and the cousin lawyer he mentioned, who is still writing the briefs. You know, as soon as he reads up on IP law.

ETA 8: The Whomping Willows weigh in. Alliteration is awesome!

ETA 9 from [info]mistressrenet: Lexiwank hits Salon. "Moreover, Vander Ark and others who work on the HPL have spent much time compiling it. Why shouldn't they be entitled to profit from their labor?" And then, "It's whether she's on solid moral ground. And the answer, obviously, is no; indeed, considering how much her fans have done for her, her move is even more lamentable than Prince's recent promise to sue his supporters." Comments are just getting started--in fact, the second commenter links to praetorianguard.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]lidane
2007-11-09 10:16 pm UTC (link)
LOLZ....someone named Colleen is claiming to be an employee of RDR Books and is wanking over in the TLC comment boards:

I am an employee of RDR books and have spent a lot of time reading articles and comments posted. One thing we have to remember is there are two sides to a story and unfortunately only one side is being told. There are many statements that JK Rowlings made in the suit filed against us that are not true and or misconstrued. Any persons who read this information in the suit will obviously automatically jump to conclusions and support JK Rowlings. Warner Brothers has infact violated copyrights from the lexicon website by publishing the TimeLine that Steve Vanderark created. Typos and all. Upon reading our book, JK Rowlings lawyers discovered that it does not contain any song lyrics, Harry Potter pictures or long excerpt from the books as stated in the Lawsuit. Steve has in no way violated copyright laws and I believe that once the judge sees all of the information the court will judge in our favor. The Law suit also mentions that my boss used the excuse of a death in the family to delay our response to the Cease and Desist Letters, and was instead off in Germany at the Frankfurt book fair hawking foreign rights. This is completely false. I work in the office and I am a witness to the fact that He and his family were out of town planning and preparing for the funeral. He was in MI while the book fair was going on. I also witnessed my boss on the phone with JK Rowlings Lawyer. She was very abrassive and spent much time screaming at him on the phone. They want one outcome from this and one outcome only. To stop us from printing this book. JK Rowlings mentioned on her site that all she wanted from the begining was to see the book and be able to make a few changes. This is completely untrue. They never intended to work with us and allow us to print the book. From the begining they ordered us to Cease and Desist. We are not what the articles and comments are portraying us to be. An author is simply taking credit for his work. The years he put into it without any profit being made. This is his work not JK Rowlings work yet they saw fit to use it on Harry Potter DVD’s. I think there are some double standards here.

*headdesk*

If this is real, somebody needs to pass around a memo at RDR telling their employees to STFU and let the lawyers do the talking since, you know, they're getting sued and all.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]alina_kalime
2007-11-09 10:21 pm UTC (link)
If this is real, I sure as hell hope that it's not the publisher's editor. The grammar and typos burn!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]lizinleather
2007-11-09 10:28 pm UTC (link)
IF this is true then I feel bad for the cousin/laywer/whatever. Not only does he have a crappy case, no one understands the concept of STFU!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]dreamworld
2007-11-09 10:31 pm UTC (link)
There's a Colleen Weesies on the about page. She's said to be the office manager. I find it ironic how closely her last name resembles "Weasley".

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]paladin
2007-11-09 11:50 pm UTC (link)
It would explain their typesetting delays, though.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]jaina
2007-11-09 10:28 pm UTC (link)
I really, truly hope that person isn't an employee-- they can't even manage to spell Rowling's name right. But that would be par for the course, so...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]wolfsamurai
2007-11-09 10:48 pm UTC (link)
I Enjoy the almost Random capitalization that This person uses On their words. It is quite Amusing.

It really goes to show that just when you think that RDR has shown the full extent of incompetence possible in this case, they take it as a challenge and do something more stupid.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]rekall
2007-11-09 10:50 pm UTC (link)
This is his work not JK Rowlings work

O RLY?

I could have swore the name on the front of all seven books say JK Rowling and not Steve Vander Ark.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mistressrenet
2007-11-09 10:51 pm UTC (link)
They want one outcome from this and one outcome only. To stop us from printing this book.

Well, yes.

Does some of her language resemble 's here or am I going completely off the rails? (I do not believe this person is Elanor, as Elanor can, you know, spell, but it seemed weird to me.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]narcissam
2007-11-09 11:18 pm UTC (link)
I noticed that too. Maybe they're vaguely inspired by remarks Elanor might have made? Though it could just be a coincidence. It's not an uncommon wording reacting to he said - she said situations.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ms_katonic
2007-11-10 02:10 am UTC (link)
Almost certainly a coincidence - Elanor's not even in the same country as RDR's lot. AFAIK she's not involved with them in any way herself. She's a student from London and a convention organiser whose boyfriend appears to have made some rather bad decisions. That's all.

I mean, I could be wrong, but I've met Elanor, and I like to think she's more intelligent than that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mistressrenet
2007-11-10 04:04 am UTC (link)
God knows enough of us have said, "damn, what morons."

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]snermy
2007-11-09 11:08 pm UTC (link)
Warner Brothers has infact violated copyrights from the lexicon website by publishing the TimeLine that Steve Vanderark created. Typos and all.

Why do people keep trying to connect the HP DVD incident with the Lexicon Book case? Wouldn't they be two separate cases? If SVA is so upset about the use of his timeline, why hasn't he sued Warner Bros. over the theft of his work?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]auralan
2007-11-09 11:45 pm UTC (link)
You know, that is probably why the whole thing is in court at all. RDR's side, for whatever reason, seems rabidly upset about the timeline issue and drags it into everything. It would explain a whole lot about failure to communicate accusations on both sides if it went a lot like this:

JKR's lawyers: Hi, we'd like to see a copy of the book you're publishing as it might infinge on our things.
RDR's side: You stole our TIMELINE!!!! You are the infringers! Pay up!
JKR's Lawyers: Yeah, that's Warners and a dvd thing. We'd like to talk about the book you're publishing.
RDR's side: But they STOLE our timeline from our website that is the book! Stole it and put it on the DVD!
JKR's lawyers: That's not us, and it's not even you. Can we talk about the book?
RDR's side: NO! TIMELINE! PLAGUERISM! *RAWR*
JKR's lawyers: Still not us. Quit it with the timeline. Copy of book or court?
RDR's side: OMG!!!!! OPPRESSION!!!! Thermonuclear war!!!! Our Timeline was STOLEN TYPOS AND ALLL!!!!!!!!
JKR's lawyers: I'm going to take that to mean you choose court.

Both sides can honestly come out of that saying the other wasn't responsive to their issues. I'm not sure both sides can claim sanity, but we knew that at thermonuclear war.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]snermy
2007-11-10 12:19 am UTC (link)
But the Timeline came from the Lexicon web site (which I thought belongs to SVA, not RDR). Wasn't the Timeline "stolen" before the issue of the Lexicon in Book form even came up? I don't see why RDR thinks they have anything to do with SVA's Lexicon being used by W. Bros. If anyone should be complaining, it would be SVA. Does RDR now have a stake in the HP-Lexicon web site?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]auralan, 2007-11-10 12:23 am UTC

[info]andra_dodger
2007-11-10 12:34 am UTC (link)
I think that's probably exactly how it went.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]smashingstars
2007-11-09 11:19 pm UTC (link)
I for one am glad to know JK Rowlings is abrassive.

/dons my Law suit

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]julian_black
2007-11-09 11:29 pm UTC (link)
Shouldn't that be a Law suite? LOL

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]julian_black
2007-11-09 11:27 pm UTC (link)
[*sigh*] Rapoport's cousin Vinny needs to apply the cluebat to everyone at RDR Books. THEY NEED TO SHUT UP ABOUT THE CASE. ALL OF THEM, NOT JUST ROGER.

That said, if RDR Books was my client, and they kept talking like this? I'd fucking fire them.

There are many statements that JK Rowlings made in the suit filed against us that are not true and or misconstrued.

So she's accusing Rowling of perjury?

Warner Brothers has infact violated copyrights from the lexicon website by publishing the TimeLine that Steve Vanderark created.

She does realize that this is a completely separate issue, and has nothing to do with the current lawsuit?

And am I the only one LOLing at a publisher's employee who cannot find the apostrophe key except when she's pluralizing DVDs?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]auralan
2007-11-09 11:56 pm UTC (link)
She does realize that this is a completely separate issue, and has nothing to do with the current lawsuit?

I really don't think so. In their heads, I don't think these are separate issues. Let me don the crazy hat here and try to see their side:

Steve asks to work with JKR to do the encyclopedia.
JKR says no no no.
Steve is sad.
Some monkey at Warners puts a suspiciously similar timeline on the DVDs.
Steve fails to see any difference between the Warners DVD monkey and JKR.
Steve feels like his work/help/expertise was rejected, then his property stolen by those same people.
Steve goes a wee bit around the bend and decides to publish his own stuff anyway because JKR/Warners are big meanieheads.

On the Steve/RDR side, I think these things are all a very closely knit and emotional chain of events. They may genuinely not understand why we see these things as distinct and separate issues.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]danceswithelvis
2007-11-10 12:00 am UTC (link)
Good point. We're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay (enough 'a's for ya?) out of the emotional side of this, so it's easy to see the stupid vs reality.

Still, the actions of RDR/SVA are amazingly stupid. I mean it beats the stupidity shown by some customers at university bookstores!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]auralan, 2007-11-10 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]danceswithelvis, 2007-11-10 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auralan, 2007-11-10 12:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]julian_black, 2007-11-10 01:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]danceswithelvis, 2007-11-10 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]danceswithelvis, 2007-11-10 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hristaesir, 2007-11-10 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]danceswithelvis, 2007-11-10 01:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hristaesir, 2007-11-10 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]smashingstars, 2007-11-10 03:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auralan, 2007-11-10 01:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lidane, 2007-11-10 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auralan, 2007-11-10 12:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phasmas, 2007-11-10 04:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auralan, 2007-11-10 05:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]littlest_lurker, 2007-11-10 07:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phasmas, 2007-11-10 10:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2007-11-10 05:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auralan, 2007-11-10 05:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2007-11-10 05:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosetta, 2007-11-11 10:33 am UTC

[info]julian_black
2007-11-10 12:46 am UTC (link)
The chain of events may be true, but for now we have no way of knowing that.

I'll give Steve credit--he obviously listened when his attorney told him not to talk about the case. However flawed his judgment may have been in trying to get the Lexicon published without Rowling's permission (and after she said she wanted to write her own companion books), he's been smart enough to follow that advice and shut the hell up.

So for right now, I'm willing to leave SVA alone. He's part of this whole mess, but his publisher's the one being sued and behaving badly. I don't doubt he's unhappy at having part of the Lexicon's timeline show up on a WB product, but that's between the Lexicon* and WB. It's not RDR's fight, no matter how vociferously Rapoport brings it up in his own defense.

And Rapoport?--hoo boy. I keep getting the impression of a bratty kid trying to deflect blame by saying "But that's not fair! Why am I being punished for this? After all, look what you did to [third party], and nobody's punished you for it." By that logic, there's some equation by which Rapoport's clearly-actionable behavior against Rowling and WB can be canceled out by the possibly-actionable behavior of WB against the Lexicon.

*I say the Lexicon and not SVA because, IIRC, other people played a major part in creating the timelines; they are not solely SVA's creations.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cill_ros, 2007-11-10 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2007-11-10 03:02 am UTC
(no subject) - camilla, 2007-11-10 01:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]littlest_lurker, 2007-11-10 08:14 am UTC

[info]melyanna
2007-11-10 01:16 am UTC (link)
I don't know what bearing this has on the crazy, but I heard the WB-plagiarizes-Lexicon thing years ago. As far as I know, I've never had contact with anyone directly involved with the Lexicon, so it had to be fairly widespread knowledge for me to hear about it four or five years ago.

I kind of wonder if it's something Steve was irked about when it happened, and then after JKR refused permission for whatever, it all got conflated in his head into one big JKR/WB-has-denied-me-my-rights bonanza. Because really, there is no reason for RDR to bring that up. It's got nothing to do with them.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lidane, 2007-11-10 01:44 am UTC

[info]littlebitca
2007-11-10 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps it wa written on Opposite Day.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]dragonfangirl
2007-11-10 12:46 pm UTC (link)
They want one outcome from this and one outcome only. To stop us from printing this book.

Well... Yeah?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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