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The New Vulcan Glee Bar ([info]ms_treesap) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2008-01-22 09:05:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:fanfic, gay marriage, otw, person: elfwreck

Writing fanfic=gay marriage
Moved from clairvoyantwank, with a couple of additions.


It starts off when [info]lady_peyton's response to The Organisation for Transformative Works, or OTW, is linked to [info]metafandom.

Then [info]elfwreck appears here, to make a comparison between the rights of gay people to get married and fanfic writers to publish fics on the internet. Many of the commentors are...rather bemused.

(Note: I did comment on this entry, but I didn't say anything to Elfwreck and I don't think I was being wanky.)

Later on, [info]elfwreck pops up on Insanejournal's meta_roundup community, with her...you guessed it,'Fanfic is like gay marriage' meta. Some agree; others (such as [info]aucta_sinistra) politely disagree.

ETA: Bahleeted and replaced by this message at both her Insanejournal and Livejournal. However, most of the wank is on other people's journals.

[info]limyaael mentions in the comments to the [info]clairvoyantwank report that [info]elfwreck had appeared from nowhere in her Journalfen to comment all over an anti-OTW post, which prompts [info]pyratejenni to call [info]elfwreck the new Heidipatrol for OTW.

Then [info]partly_bouncy appears in the [info]metafandom comments with links to both [info]elfwreck lj's post (ah, the joys of x-posting) and [info]liz_marcs, who is not happy with [info]elfwreck. [info]elfwreck appears in the comments, and the teal deer spooge erupts.

Edit: [info]elfwreck appears in the comments here.




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[info]blackjackrocket
2008-01-22 12:52 pm UTC (link)
I keep hearing about it, but no one, including the actual OTW *site*, explains what it *is*. It seems like just an archive site. What's new and revolutionary about that?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]author_by_night, 2008-01-22 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mousy_345e4, 2008-01-22 02:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-22 02:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mousy_345e4, 2008-01-22 02:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mousy_345e4, 2008-01-22 02:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stromatolite, 2008-01-22 05:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2008-01-22 02:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mousy_345e4, 2008-01-22 02:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sepiamagpie, 2008-01-22 02:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mousy_345e4, 2008-01-22 02:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-22 05:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mousy_345e4, 2008-01-22 09:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wolfsamurai, 2008-01-22 05:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 07:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amxjm, 2008-01-23 08:05 am UTC
(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2008-01-22 05:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-01-24 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-25 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-01-25 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hooverdam, 2008-01-22 05:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelastgoodname, 2008-01-23 02:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hooverdam, 2008-01-23 03:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kuromitsu, 2008-01-22 02:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mousy_345e4, 2008-01-22 02:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - iwanttobeasleep, 2008-01-22 11:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esclaramonde, 2008-01-22 02:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ingrid, 2008-01-22 03:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esclaramonde, 2008-01-22 03:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-01-22 03:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ingrid, 2008-01-22 03:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]missdaisy, 2008-01-22 10:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2008-01-23 01:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2008-01-22 07:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-22 05:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esclaramonde, 2008-01-22 06:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sapote3, 2008-01-22 05:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esclaramonde, 2008-01-22 06:05 pm UTC
then you know this and can skip it. - [info]sapote3, 2008-01-22 06:23 pm UTC
I can't skip! - [info]esclaramonde, 2008-01-22 07:50 pm UTC
Re: I can't skip! - [info]sapote3, 2008-01-22 07:56 pm UTC
Re: I can't skip! - [info]esclaramonde, 2008-01-22 09:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-22 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sapote3, 2008-01-22 06:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2008-01-22 09:03 pm UTC
What's new about OTW's archive plans? - [info]elfwreck, 2008-01-23 12:13 am UTC
Re: What's new about OTW's archive plans? - [info]white_serpent, 2008-01-23 12:34 am UTC
Re: What's new about OTW's archive plans? - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-23 12:57 am UTC
Re: What's new about OTW's archive plans? - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-01-24 10:16 pm UTC

[info]dragonfangirl
2008-01-22 01:43 pm UTC (link)
I keep reading "elfwreck" as "trainwreck."

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]squeakytoy, 2008-01-22 01:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadowkitty, 2008-01-22 03:45 pm UTC

[info]author_by_night
2008-01-22 02:06 pm UTC (link)
Okay, does fandom actually understand what homosexuality is? Because I'm beginning to think, given the reactions to Dumbledore being gay ("WTF he's OLD and SMELLY, it can't be HIM"), the accusations that Tonks is secretly forcing Remus to pretend to be straight, and now this, that they just use it upon being offended by something, and feel that crying homophobia is going to help their case.

I'm pro-gay marriage, because I feel all people have the right to marry, opposite or same sex. I'm not pro-OTW, because I feel authors have the right to hold sole copyright for their own work.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2008-01-22 05:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]drworm, 2008-01-22 06:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2008-01-22 08:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2008-01-22 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-22 09:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2008-01-22 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amxjm, 2008-01-23 08:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hrrcnislndhrt, 2008-01-23 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kylenne, 2008-01-22 10:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenling, 2008-01-23 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inalasahl, 2008-01-22 06:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2008-01-22 07:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2008-01-22 07:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2008-01-22 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]undomielregina, 2008-01-22 07:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2008-01-22 07:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]undomielregina, 2008-01-22 08:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inalasahl, 2008-01-22 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-01-23 10:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hrrcnislndhrt, 2008-01-23 09:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-01-24 02:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-24 02:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-01-24 02:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-24 03:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-01-24 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hrrcnislndhrt, 2008-01-24 05:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-01-24 10:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2008-01-22 07:18 pm UTC

[info]smashingstars
2008-01-22 02:46 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. elfwreck had a post on her IJ where she asked her friends to tell her if she ever crossed the line when she attempted to spur on discussion with flame wars (seriously, that's what she claimed), but she didn't refer to anything specific. The only reason I knew it was in reference to this wank was when she got a few replies. That post of hers in her IJ was public, but now it appears to be deleted... guess that's what the ETA comment is about.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]smashingstars, 2008-01-22 02:47 pm UTC

[info]mpreg_elfblair
2008-01-22 02:49 pm UTC (link)
[info]elfwreck is not someone I would want on my side. "...I am devoted to the art of flamewar as a communication technique" she says, here

I don't know that I've ever seen anyone who believed that you communicate well in a flamewar, but maybe I'm just old fashioned.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]drworm, 2008-01-22 06:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2008-01-22 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-22 08:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-01-22 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pfeffermuse, 2008-01-23 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-23 05:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-01-23 10:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]drworm, 2008-01-22 08:32 pm UTC

[info]onaga
2008-01-22 03:56 pm UTC (link)
The discussion in liz_marcs' LJ is amusing me, because I stopped writing fanfic about five years ago and instead use my "creative urges" to write... academic papers. GASP SHOCK HORROR.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]randomsome1, 2008-01-22 07:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-01-22 08:49 pm UTC
Well, since everyone else is wanking. . . - iwanttobeasleep, 2008-01-22 11:40 pm UTC
Re: Well, since everyone else is wanking. . . - [info]beckyh2112, 2008-01-23 01:40 am UTC
Re: Well, since everyone else is wanking. . . - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-01-23 10:49 am UTC
Re: Well, since everyone else is wanking. . . - janegray, 2008-01-23 03:20 pm UTC
Re: Well, since everyone else is wanking. . . - [info]beckyh2112, 2008-01-23 06:52 pm UTC

[info]limyaael
2008-01-22 04:14 pm UTC (link)
What I really don't get? (Other than [info]elfwreck, who is in a category of Not Getting It all by herself).

Why they won't just change the damn phrase on their site about being female-dominated that has all these people crying "exclusionary!" and other people just plain confused. Obviously, it's not the best wording they could have used. But their defenders insist that it's just perfect, or else that it's necessary to preserve fandom as a female safe space in this crazy, crazy male-dominated world. Even if it's, you know, not one.

I think SF/F fandom would have interesting things to say about fandom being dominated by women.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ingrid, 2008-01-22 05:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2008-01-22 05:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ingrid, 2008-01-22 05:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2008-01-22 09:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-01-22 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ingrid, 2008-01-22 10:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dez_chan, 2008-01-22 07:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2008-01-23 01:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 07:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2008-01-23 03:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelastgoodname, 2008-01-23 02:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2008-01-23 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelastgoodname, 2008-01-23 05:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 07:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelastgoodname, 2008-01-23 07:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-23 01:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelastgoodname, 2008-01-23 06:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-24 12:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelastgoodname, 2008-01-24 05:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-24 06:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelastgoodname, 2008-01-24 08:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-25 04:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rustybitch, 2008-01-23 11:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-23 01:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rustybitch, 2008-01-23 03:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2008-01-23 03:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thelastgoodname, 2008-01-23 11:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-24 12:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gamera, 2008-01-23 08:18 pm UTC

[info]napalmnacey
2008-01-22 04:26 pm UTC (link)
I don't think you're a fanatic; I think you're a moron. There's a difference. You're a garden-variety entitled fangirl who thinks your "right" to porny fanfiction is equatable to the civil rights struggles of the GLBT community, and quite frankly, I think it's pathetic to try to tack your little cause onto the coattails of people with actual problems. You are beneath my contempt.

Oh man, they was PWNED!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sgtgeorgecarter, 2008-01-22 06:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hallidae, 2008-01-22 08:11 pm UTC

[info]ladypeyton
2008-01-22 04:39 pm UTC (link)
ZOMG! I have made it to the big leagues!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-22 04:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladypeyton, 2008-01-22 04:48 pm UTC
whut.
[info]windex_junkie
2008-01-22 05:42 pm UTC (link)
So again, as much as I usually can sympathize with transgendered folk, in this case I must tell that I feel they act silly. If they are interested into transformative works they are to be counted among the female part of fandom, and should stop to whine about that
I have never seen a girl in the fanboy parts or a boy in the fangirl parts complain about being not respected enough just as I have never seen a transgendered person peeing their pants while protesting that their are only female and male bathrooms at a public location but non for transgendered


I. Whut. I mean. Whut?

DO NOT SPEAK. D:

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: whut. - [info]drworm, 2008-01-22 06:59 pm UTC
Re: whut. - [info]deliciouschaos, 2008-01-22 11:09 pm UTC
Re: whut. - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-22 11:18 pm UTC

[info]sapote3
2008-01-22 06:01 pm UTC (link)
The wank around this has been pretty hilarious.

"OMG you're EXCLUDING ME!"
"OMG stop INCLUDING me!"
"Stop speaking for me!"
"Start speaking for ME!"

I like OTW. They're scrappy.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2008-01-22 06:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sapote3, 2008-01-22 06:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2008-01-22 09:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 01:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-23 02:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]midnitemarauder, 2008-01-23 04:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2008-01-23 05:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]midnitemarauder, 2008-01-23 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 06:41 am UTC

[info]kill_the_spare
2008-01-22 07:19 pm UTC (link)
I'm glad Elfwreck deleted those posts, because it was too depressing to read smart folks from my friends list agreeing, "WHY YES! FANFIC IS EXACTLY LIKE GAY MARRIAGE!" Gah.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 01:43 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 02:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dana, 2008-01-23 02:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dana, 2008-01-23 02:52 am UTC

[info]hooverdam
2008-01-22 07:19 pm UTC (link)
everyone who thinks "fandom" is one single entity should be killed

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2008-01-22 07:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2008-01-22 07:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]plazmah, 2008-01-22 11:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2008-01-22 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sunhawk, 2008-01-22 11:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady7jane, 2008-01-23 03:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rustybitch, 2008-01-23 11:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hooverdam, 2008-01-23 03:13 pm UTC

[info]dragonfangirl
2008-01-22 07:35 pm UTC (link)
The sad thing is, I'd be almost sympathetic to OTW's aims, if only they weren't obsessed with the idea of being the one, the only, the savior to the unwashed penisedarchived masses.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]randomsome1, 2008-01-22 07:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ravenbell, 2008-01-23 05:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-01-25 02:56 am UTC

[info]kylenne
2008-01-22 08:47 pm UTC (link)
I'll take Heterosexual Privilege for $500, Alex.

(Reply to this)


[info]sunhawk
2008-01-22 09:41 pm UTC (link)
I'm so confused, I thought OTW started up so that companies couldn't try to make money off fanfics and drag us all into a legal blackhole. Why does it now sound like OTW is the one trying to drag fanfic writers into that blackhole all by themselves? I know that OTW has been playing hide-n-seek with their actual goals and intentions but from the comments I've been reading, it sounds like they want to ... somehow... take ownership of canon away from the original creators and give it to fanfic writers? When/why the hell did that happen?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sapote3, 2008-01-22 10:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sunhawk, 2008-01-22 10:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - flightstothesea, 2008-01-22 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ingrid, 2008-01-22 11:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sapote3, 2008-01-23 05:54 am UTC

[info]entrenous88
2008-01-22 11:48 pm UTC (link)
[info]elfwreck's icon at her IJ (admittedly, one attached to an unrelated entry) just seems to encapsulate perfectly her rationale for choosing her mode of participation in this discussion:



*starts slow-clap*

(Reply to this)


[info]eljuno
2008-01-23 01:41 am UTC (link)
I have never seen a girl in the fanboy parts or a boy in the fangirl parts complain about being not respected enough just as I have never seen a transgendered person peeing their pants while protesting that their are only female and male bathrooms at a public location but non for transgendered

Why the bathrooms? Why does it always come down to the bathrooms? Any trans* related issue and hey, there are the bathrooms.

It vexes me.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]greenling, 2008-01-23 04:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2008-01-23 06:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2008-01-23 07:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2008-01-23 05:49 pm UTC

[info]dez_chan
2008-01-23 05:12 am UTC (link)
A post on metafandom drew elfwreck out again. I suppose "quit while you're ahead" is too much for her?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eleutheria, 2008-01-23 06:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dez_chan, 2008-01-23 06:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-01-23 10:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2008-01-23 06:50 am UTC

[info]fevered_ego
2008-01-23 05:38 am UTC (link)
I don't see the problem here at all! I mean, inasmuch as we gay marriage supporters are fighting tooth and nail for the right to forcibly marry someone else's husband without permission, the two issues are exactly the same!

These fanfic people have a totally credible analogy and should be given every opportunity to plead their case.

(Reply to this)


[info]komorebi
2008-01-23 02:56 pm UTC (link)
I started yelling a quarter of the way through, just to distract myself from trying to make sense out of what the hell they were saying. Aaaaaaagodmyhead.

(Reply to this)


[info]kumquat_of_doom
2008-01-24 04:18 am UTC (link)
I just want it noted that I kinda love you for having 'wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey' as your JF 'name'.

God, I loved Ten so hard in that moment.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ms_treesap, 2008-01-24 07:01 am UTC

[info]mistressrenet
2008-01-24 10:36 pm UTC (link)
The drive to write fanfic, like being gay, is an intrinsic part of personality and psyche

Okay, I'm out. The crazy is officially too much for me.

(Reply to this)


[info]ruffwriter
2008-01-25 12:11 am UTC (link)
Ah, I knew it was past time for someone to remind me that fanfic is a sacred art form.

All I need is someone to remind me that fanfic is so much harder and more creative than original fic, forsrsguys, and I'll be set for the next month!

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2008-01-26 06:04 pm UTC (link)
What gets to me is that none of the people discussing this seem to understand the actual gritty reality of hosting any content. Even if OTW was only about an archive, the first time the state came knocking, that content would come under investigation.

Where in the name of God do they want to have their servers? Servers have to be hosted, too, you can set up one in your living room but with the amount of space this would take, how? How? Who would host fans' domains? And do they really think that a software package is going to do it? Who is going to write that software?

No matter what country your server is in, if there is illegal material on it (shota, anyone?), the cops may come calling. And they will ask about the data of the person who uploaded the material and OTW will give it to them. Because otherwise, OTW gets held responsible. Let's see their legal help do something with "OTW refused to cooperate with police investigation in terrorism and child porn". Ahahaha. With the current political situation? Guys. Honestly.

Oh, and if OTW wants to do the server themselves? If they do it professionally, you're looking at millions of dollars, euros, pound, what have you. People who take care of this setup 24/7. Because if they do do it through their living room, 90% reachability would be great. 70% more realistic. And for every big wank in fandom, you are going to get breakages. Like Journalfen has experienced.

That is the nature of the thing. The fans are too many and hundreds of thousands of us trying to reload and reload until the site comes on will break a server. (Easy to fix, true, but only if the damn reloading stops. You have to wait it out. Sometimes for days.)

The site says they want the archive under OTW's advocacy. Unless they're setting this joint up on Pluto, no chance.

Every webhoster is subject to the laws of the country it operates in. Their TOS is never going to save their asses. And I doubt that even if every fan in the world gave money for this, it would be enough.

May OTW clue in to that very fast before the fans get hurt.

F. M.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2008-01-26 06:46 pm UTC



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