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mercutia ([info]mercutia) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2008-02-07 07:10:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:GRRRRRR
Entry tags:comics, person: dave sim

Comic Book Resource Forum's Teal Deer Gives Birth To Comics Journal Forum's...Aqua Fawn, Perhaps?
Recall, if you will, last month's epic 80+ page Dave Sim-related wank at the Comic Book Resource Forum, in which the rather horrifically misogynist views of Dave Sim are argued for and against at length by several persons, one of whom is Gail Simone.

It may interest anyone who followed that particular story to know that there's four pages of direct interaction between Gail and Dave (with a few others; the whole thread is six pages) over on Sequential Tart. Like the last one, the actual Wank Factor is pretty low (no CAPSLOCK OF RAGE!, no "stop being meeaan!" or any of that) but Gail, in that very nice way she has, hold's Dave's feet to the fire. Dave--sort of doesn't give hard answers. Because everyone's focusing on gender issues instead of asking him about his latest creation (Glamourpuss), which is why he's there, he rather civilly wraps it up. Then--

*ominous organ arpeggios; maniacal laughter*

--our old friend Talon T M (aka Rick Sharer) shows up to fling monkeypoo at Gail, because...well, frankly, because that's what he does. (Starts page four, a little over halfway down.)

Not the most gratifying of wanks, as it all peters out and Dave never comes back to comment on Talon's behavior, which I frankly would like to see. I suspect this is just another chapter in what will be a Cerebus-length saga.

ETA: Suddenly it occurs to me that Dave is basically the real-life version of Rorschach. This won't mean much to you if you haven't read Watchmen but...I mean, with Rorschach's mask off, they even look alike.

And now I'm giggling like a loon.

ETA 2: Glamourpuss linked correctly now thanks to [info]ook.

ETA 3: We made When Fangirls Attack!! I'ma cry I'm so happy!



(Post a new comment)


[info]reeve
2008-02-07 03:54 pm UTC (link)
I haven't gottten too far in, and I gave up on Sim's work a long time ago, but a part of me is sad that he won't be lettering this book by hand, his lettering being one of the truly outstanding things about Cerebus. I'm guessing with Glamorpuss it's a stylistic choice, but still.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]mercutia
2008-02-07 04:18 pm UTC (link)
After all this nuttiness in general, I kind of want to read at least some of Cerebus just to see what all the fuss is about. I know the "Women And Gays Are Evil! Eeeeeeevil, I Tell You!" rants can be found online, but I'd like to see them in context (although that's a LOT of reading).

Also on his Wikipedia entry it mentions the Comic Book Journal issue (#174?) where he's sharply taken to task when the offending Cerebus issue came out, and among the many people commenting on the whole thing is Alan Moore, who is about 180 degrees opposite Dave in his views of women etc, and I can't find an online version of this ANYWHERE, and it's driving me NUTS.

Pardon me while I blather.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]reeve, 2008-02-07 04:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2008-02-07 05:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mercutia, 2008-02-07 05:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kosaginolegion, 2008-02-07 06:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hangingfire, 2008-02-07 08:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wrongly_amused, 2008-02-10 07:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2008-02-07 11:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mercutia, 2008-02-08 05:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2008-02-12 01:54 am UTC

[info]gynocrat
2008-02-07 04:19 pm UTC (link)
I saw this a couple days ago...still trying to figure out how Sim handles the whole feminist-homosexualist-axis.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]vito_excalibur, 2008-02-07 06:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2008-02-07 07:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vito_excalibur, 2008-02-09 07:41 am UTC

[info]julesnoctambule
2008-02-07 04:56 pm UTC (link)
I clicked the Glamourpuss link and the first thing I noticed was the lack of good punctuation. Then there was a bunch of sparkly shit. For that alone, he fails.

(Reply to this)


tree
2008-02-07 05:35 pm UTC (link)
Talon, again?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2008-02-07 07:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2008-02-07 09:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - tree, 2008-02-07 10:31 pm UTC

[info]goblin
2008-02-07 06:09 pm UTC (link)
Woah, that is some old school sexism right there. Seeing an entire board debate whether feminism is Evil or just misguided was mind-blowing.

Aren't we past this crap yet? Do we just have to wait for an entire generation of old misogynist fogies to die out or something?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]randomsome1, 2008-02-07 06:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-07 07:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]agent_hyatt, 2008-02-07 07:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]randomsome1, 2008-02-08 05:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xellos, 2008-02-09 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cythraul, 2008-02-12 01:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kita0610, 2008-02-08 12:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2008-02-07 08:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]queencallipygos, 2008-02-07 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - tree, 2008-02-07 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tyraarane_, 2008-02-08 07:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lyppy, 2008-02-08 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - ladygoddess, 2008-02-09 06:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dark_puck, 2008-02-09 05:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - ladygoddess, 2008-02-09 06:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rimrunner, 2008-02-10 05:08 am UTC
(no subject) - ladygoddess, 2008-02-10 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - magpiggles, 2008-02-07 10:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-02-08 05:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mmanurere, 2008-02-08 06:39 am UTC

[info]mister_terrific
2008-02-07 06:15 pm UTC (link)
This got brought up over on Heidi Macdonald's blog THE BEAT, and Gail shows up in the comments:

I didn’t go there to attack Dave. I thought, apparently wildly incorrectly, that he would have a great towering wall of logic defending his position, since that’s been the stance he’s taken for thirteen years now. I’m as baffled as anyone to see there’s really nothing there at all. That took me utterly by surprise.

I simply went there to ask questions I’d had for a long time. When Dave was interviewed by a female for the Onion, he came out swinging and throwing accusations about her intentions before she’d hardly opened her mouth. I thought it was because he’d been attacked for his beliefs.

Now I think it’s just plain insecurity, and the knowledge that his conclusions are unsupported and his ‘documented percentages’ just so much hooey.

I’m as surprised as anyone. Of all the things I expected, this wasn’t any of them...

It seems more and more that the whole I WILL NOT BE QUESTIONED! I AM AN UNASSAILABLE BASTION OF ALL REASON is just loud, loud empty threats to keep people from actually asking any questions of real meaning.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]hallidae, 2008-02-07 07:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-07 07:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]queencallipygos, 2008-02-07 08:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]c, 2008-02-08 03:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aewgliriel, 2008-02-08 03:52 am UTC

[info]senor_pinata
2008-02-07 06:17 pm UTC (link)
I kind of love Gail Simone in this. She's working on Wonder Woman now, right? I feel like buying her stuff now.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-07 07:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]papervolcano, 2008-02-07 07:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2008-02-07 08:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]papervolcano, 2008-02-07 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2008-02-07 09:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]papervolcano, 2008-02-07 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tsubaki, 2008-02-09 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2008-02-09 03:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reeve, 2008-02-09 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - magpiggles, 2008-02-07 10:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]papervolcano, 2008-02-07 10:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evanwaters, 2008-02-08 04:02 am UTC

[info]mistressrenet
2008-02-07 07:17 pm UTC (link)
Am I the only one giggling at "Dave Sim, Junior Member"?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2008-02-07 08:08 pm UTC
For the curious...
[info]waltraute
2008-02-07 08:33 pm UTC (link)
The Onion A. V. Club interview with Dave Sim.

Wow.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: For the curious... - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-07 08:50 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]waltraute, 2008-02-07 08:59 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-07 10:28 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]hallidae, 2008-02-08 12:40 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]lil_miss_stfu, 2008-02-08 01:38 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]littlest_lurker, 2008-02-08 01:39 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]bubosquared, 2008-02-09 06:41 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]wrongly_amused, 2008-02-10 07:56 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-10 08:46 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]pipssister, 2008-02-07 08:54 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]queencallipygos, 2008-02-07 09:02 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]pipssister, 2008-02-07 09:11 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-07 10:12 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]mister_terrific, 2008-02-07 09:24 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]queencallipygos, 2008-02-07 09:28 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]mister_terrific, 2008-02-07 10:04 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]carolinga, 2008-02-08 12:19 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]blue_penguin, 2008-02-08 02:41 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]rosehiptea, 2008-02-08 02:47 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]blue_penguin, 2008-02-08 02:56 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]ara, 2008-02-08 04:39 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-02-08 05:32 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]elektra3, 2008-02-08 05:33 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]snarkhunter, 2008-02-08 05:42 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]randomsome1, 2008-02-08 06:19 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]waltraute, 2008-02-08 06:35 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]randomsome1, 2008-02-08 06:53 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]waltraute, 2008-02-08 07:10 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]bubosquared, 2008-02-09 06:42 am UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]frequentmouse, 2008-02-09 06:31 pm UTC
Re: For the curious... - [info]cythraul, 2008-02-13 01:05 pm UTC

[info]brown_betty
2008-02-07 08:39 pm UTC (link)
The art on Glamourpuss is really nice, but-- I have to wonder how many people are following it waiting for the crazy to asplode.

(Reply to this)


[info]smashingstars
2008-02-07 09:18 pm UTC (link)
Gah, Talon has been driving me insane since his days on Usenet. I'm glad to see this as a follow-up to the original epic 80-pager. I suspect Dave doesn't comment on Talon's behavior because he likes having someone so thoroughly in his corner, even if they are completely batshit.

But now I know what I'll be reading this afternoon. Yay.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2008-02-07 09:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smashingstars, 2008-02-08 12:07 am UTC

[info]laurelin_kit
2008-02-07 09:35 pm UTC (link)
Wow. I'd never heard of this guy before, but now after reading the interview in the Onion, I kind of want to stomp on his testicles a little. Oh, is that too "leftist" of me?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2008-02-07 09:41 pm UTC

[info]seiberwing
2008-02-07 11:46 pm UTC (link)
*hearts Gail Simone really really lots now*

(Reply to this)


[info]tiki
2008-02-07 11:59 pm UTC (link)
Whenever I see anyone try to "rationally" argue either with Dave Sim or regarding his views on women, the first thing that comes to mind is always "boy, you must have a lot of time on your hands". That goes for both Dave and Gail in their Sequential Tart debate; did either of them actually think they were going to convince the other of anything?

(Reply to this)


[info]scootermcgaffin
2008-02-08 12:45 am UTC (link)
Every time I read Gail saying "I'm seriously not trying to put your back against the wall, Dave" or something similar, I just picture her with an evil little smirk on her face, all "is the concrete cold, buddyboy? I HOPE IT IS"

And I love her even more than I used to for it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]velvet_mace, 2008-02-08 03:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evanwaters, 2008-02-08 04:01 am UTC
TL;DR
[info]velvet_mace
2008-02-08 03:01 am UTC (link)
I collected Simms work from the very, very early years (I think I have issue 20 boxed up somewhere in a dark corner) I thought he was funny and a good artist. Then he got serious, his art was still stunning and I was willing to hold on for some interesting dramatic pay off. But that stretched and stretched and then got less and less funny, until there was almost no humor at all. Kind of like someone who parodies white supremists deciding to join their cause.

I stopped collecting about the time I realized I'd paid 3 bucks for 15 pages of repetitive art, (oh look more skulls), a story which hadn't gone anywhere for 10 issues and wasn't likely to go anywhere any time soon, and the characters who I initially liked had somehow along the way ceased being funny at all and now were assholes.

Long story short: Now I'm kind of ashamed that I used to like him so much.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: TL;DR - [info]velvet_mace, 2008-02-08 03:04 am UTC
Re: TL;DR - [info]ook, 2008-02-09 09:37 am UTC
Re: TL;DR - [info]reeve, 2008-02-09 04:10 pm UTC
Re: TL;DR - [info]velvet_mace, 2008-02-09 06:46 pm UTC
Re: TL;DR - [info]ook, 2008-02-09 10:30 pm UTC
Re: TL;DR - [info]velvet_mace, 2008-02-09 10:39 pm UTC

[info]cmdr_zoom
2008-02-08 04:24 am UTC (link)
It makes me sad, really. He accomplished something that was amazing and unprecedented. He told some good stories, and some funny jokes. And now all of that has been eclipsed and tainted by his illness, his bitterness, and the very ego that led him to undertake something so audacious in the first place.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-08 04:30 am UTC

[info]evilsqueakers
2008-02-08 06:15 am UTC (link)
As much as I adored Gail's opinions, Pam Bliss kinda owned that thread with documented facts of women's roles on page 7. Information that you learn in your basic Sociology 101 class. Or my World Civ to 1500 class because my teacher's awesome about putting women's roles in the past up in every section.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2008-02-08 10:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-02-08 10:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2008-02-09 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2008-02-09 04:50 am UTC

[info]ook
2008-02-08 12:28 pm UTC (link)
The correct link to Sim's Glamourpuss web site is http://www.glamourpusscomic.com

It looks like Sim is unsuccessfully attempting to channel the art stylings of the famous newspaper cartoonist Stan Drake. After all of Sim's anti-female rantings I'm not particularly interested in his new project about women and the fashion industry.

I was wondering whatever became of Gerhard and it seems that he and Sim have finally parted ways.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mercutia, 2008-02-08 02:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lerefuge, 2008-02-08 03:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mistressrenet, 2008-02-08 04:15 pm UTC

[info]chikane
2008-02-08 03:59 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if anyone has pointed out to Dave Sim that his beloved Oscar Wilde was, kinda, a supporter of the evil and nefarious "homosexualist" conspiracy.

But then, I guess not, for this Gamourpuss site has a Wilde-quote on top of it.

Oh well.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2008-02-08 04:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2008-02-08 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2008-02-08 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2008-02-08 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2008-02-09 01:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2008-02-09 01:35 am UTC
right out the nose! - [info]rimrunner, 2008-02-10 05:15 am UTC
Re: right out the nose! - [info]seiberwing, 2008-02-10 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]narcissam, 2008-02-08 08:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubosquared, 2008-02-09 07:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chikane, 2008-02-09 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2008-02-10 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cythraul, 2008-02-13 02:20 pm UTC

[info]narcissam
2008-02-08 08:18 pm UTC (link)
So, previous to this wank, all I knew about Dave Sim was Jeff Smith's story of how his friendship with Dave Sim ended. From Jeff Smith's website,

"Jeff’s friendship with fellow Self-publisher Dave Sim ended suddenly when Dave published his controversial issue of Cerebus #186, in which he defined women as creatures incapable of logical thinking. Portraying an evening spent in the Smith’s home in the Santa Cruz mountains, both Jeff and his wife Vijaya were written into the text as examples of a man and his parasitic, brain-eating wife. Smith is portrayed as agreeing with Sim’s ideas and seeming to be afraid of reprisal from his wife. Vijaya herself, whose parents come from India, is described as “inscrutable”.
Glad to see he's still upholding his lifestyle choices. ;-)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mercutia, 2008-02-09 03:17 am UTC

[info]aewgliriel
2008-02-10 03:23 am UTC (link)
. . . Someone is stuck in the 1965-1985 range for "fashion".

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]monkeywrench, 2008-02-10 05:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aewgliriel, 2008-02-10 07:54 am UTC
It's Stan Drake, I tell ya! - [info]ook, 2008-02-10 09:07 am UTC

[info]ilpalazzo
2008-02-11 05:32 am UTC (link)
Despite them being loathsome creatures beneath his notice and whose mere consideration actively imperils his chosen mode of masculine life...Dave Sim can't shut up for even a moment about the ladies, can he?

Also, Glamourpuss looks like it'll suck as few things have sucked before. Using an old genre and an old narrative conceit to say the same old things he's been saying for a decade? I'd say he's beating a dead horse, except that it's a horse in pink legwarmers and it's laughing at him.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2008-02-20 06:21 am UTC (link)
I went to school with Dave Sim and Gerhard Schmuck. Yes, that's Gerhard's last name.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-02-20 06:22 am UTC

 
   
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