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Reeve Kasahara ([info]reeve) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2009-03-05 12:30:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:fandom: final fantasy vii, someone is wrong on the internet!, videogames

You have the right to your opinion, which is WRONG!
So IGN posted an article titled, "Is Final Fantasy VII Overrated?", part of a new series in their retro section that takes a look at the sacred cows of gaming and determines if they're, well, overrated. Naturally, this article attracted literally hundreds of comments. They started out civil enough, with some early posters readying their popcorn buckets. They would not be disappointed.

You have your defenders:

papavicio: its wrong its not overrated is a LEGEND, all games in the world including Zelda should worship, this, estuans interius ira vehementi SEPHIROTH!!! the best game ever , everytime i listen to obuo uematus's one winged angel i get a hard on

mtheshaper: I hear this argument all the time and it sounds like sour grapes to me. Just because IV and VI are underrated doesn't mean that Final fantasy is overrated. It is one of the most important RPGs that's ever come out and there's simply no changing that no matter how much of a sprite fanboy you are. As for the inexperienced gamers being responsible for the fame, I'll say that's just more elitist bullshit from someone who will always be down on whatever is popular.

(IV and VI underrated? That's a new one...)

Plus your haters:

Grahamx227: FFVII didn't make JRPGs mainstream at all. If you were raised during the super nintendo period, you'd understand that. You would never find a gamer without a copy of FFVI or IV, chrono trigger and secret of Mana. These fanboys are likely mostly born in 1990 - 1993 or so, with FFVII the first they've played

tripleh_pedigree: this game is one of the most rated rpg pieces of crap ever...i don't want to spend time breeding stinking birds i hate....the best final fantasy was 8 and the best rpg i have ever played EVER is Chrono Cross....now that game is so much better than this piece of shit so all of you fan boys of this game just shut up

There's even the odd tangent about Western RPGs:

predatorhell: FF7 is my number 1 RPG before Chrono Trigger and FF Tactics.
RPG genre lost much of its spirit with the end of the PS1. PS2 and by now PS3, there is no "incredible" RPG. Even FF 10 to 12 LACKED great story, character design and fun gameplay. So it stays the best. Like millions of fans, I would wish Square would put FF13 aside and work on a FF7 remake instead.

Only Valkyria Chronicles recently that goes in competition when thinking of: the story, characters, gameplay system and being a very long game to finish.

Holy_Swiss: This is stupid. Are you just NOT counting "good" RPG's at all? And by 'good', I mean WRPG's. Mass Effect, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 are all easily in the top 15 RPG's ever made. Easily.

mixBruiser: "This is stupid. Are you just NOT counting "good" RPG's at all? And by 'good', I mean WRPG's"

And that explains why this troll keeps piling hate on to JRPGs. He doesn't like Japan :P

I'll bet you if FF7 was made by a Western company like Bethesda he'd love it.

IMO a good RPG is a good RPG, Oblivion is awesome, but so is Valkyria Chronicles though. And you forgot Baldur's Gate and the first 2 Fallouts were better than the 3rd

DarthBrian (also replying to Holy_Swiss): You're out of your gourd. None of those even comes close to breaking the Top 50 RPGs of all time. If you wanted to mention WRPGs in the top 15 then you should've mentioned Wasteland, Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1 & 2, and Planescape: Torment.


Looks like someone never forgave Squaresoft for shifting FFVII's development to the PlayStation:

blaineca: The battle and weapon system in VII are awesome. BUT - the adventure side of it... the graphics and controls when walking around are HORRIBLE. If they had removed all of the predrawn crap they could have released the game on the N64 AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER GAME. Maybe not as pretty at some points, but it would have had better overall gameplay.

From the "look how much I don't care" department:

EtherealLeto: Oh fuck you, IGN.

I mean seriously, bugger off. Who the fuck cares about your opinion on FF7? The game is ANCIENT, the fact to the matter is that Final Fantasy games are as repetitive as they come, and if any of them had anything going for them at all it was Final Fantasy 7 for having a charming cast and an appealing setting.

It's so trendy to hate on FF7 these days, ffs.

Just go back to Patapon wanking, IGN. It's what you do best anyway.


Meanwhile, staffers at PSX Extreme and Kezins pick up on the story, the latter including a similarly-themed video from G4 and this bit of insight:

"No one is saying Final Fantasy VII was the greatest RPG ever made, but we are saying it was one of the best. In the end, I do think people have the right to believe the game was over-hyped or overrated, but as I said before they have the right to be WRONG."

Also, the first game covered in IGN's series? The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Quite a bit of fanboy froth in the comments for that article, too.




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[info]cmdr_zoom
2009-03-05 09:04 pm UTC (link)
So, basically IGN's new series concept is "We Troll the Fanbase"?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kadath, 2009-03-05 09:06 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]meagenimage, 2009-03-07 10:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]meagenimage, 2009-03-07 10:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reeve, 2009-03-09 04:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phoenix_knight, 2009-04-01 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]reeve, 2009-04-01 11:00 pm UTC

[info]risha
2009-03-05 09:15 pm UTC (link)
Coincidentally, I'm currently replaying FFXII, intent on actually finishing it this time. Because it's awesome, and I've always regretted getting distracted away from it by Burning Crusade.

This has nothing to with wank, of course, so ignore me.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]finchbird, 2009-03-05 09:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2009-03-06 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]risha, 2009-03-06 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]doomsday, 2009-03-06 04:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]spudsey, 2009-03-06 04:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gunshou, 2009-03-06 02:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evening_rose, 2009-03-09 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hypno_jango, 2009-03-06 06:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miraba, 2009-03-06 06:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hypno_jango, 2009-03-06 07:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilgoala, 2009-03-06 08:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]themadscientist, 2009-03-06 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evening_rose, 2009-03-09 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gunshou, 2009-03-10 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evening_rose, 2009-03-10 05:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stopthatgirl7, 2009-03-08 03:03 pm UTC

[info]vitalitat
2009-03-05 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Everyone knows what's the most overrated game. It starts with an H and end with an O.


OH SNAP.


It's going to be fun to watch the fans unravel when their favorite games are posted about

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]risha, 2009-03-05 09:18 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]darkling, 2009-03-06 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]firefly99, 2009-03-06 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 01:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkling, 2009-03-06 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]firefly99, 2009-03-06 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkling, 2009-03-06 04:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]firefly99, 2009-03-06 02:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkling, 2009-03-06 04:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkling, 2009-03-06 04:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stopthatgirl7, 2009-03-08 03:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]adevyish, 2009-03-09 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chez_moi, 2009-03-09 04:30 pm UTC
LJ ScottyQuick - (Anonymous), 2009-04-06 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reeve, 2009-03-05 09:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eleutheria, 2009-03-06 02:23 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]eleganceliberty, 2009-03-06 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - ladygoddess, 2009-03-21 10:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2009-03-05 09:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vitalitat, 2009-03-05 09:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]finchbird, 2009-03-05 09:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2009-03-05 11:16 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]disdainful_soul, 2009-03-06 01:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2009-03-06 06:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stopthatgirl7, 2009-03-08 03:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pantsgolem, 2009-03-06 04:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2009-03-06 07:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pantsgolem, 2009-03-07 12:18 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]phosfate
2009-03-05 09:27 pm UTC (link)
Bitches better not diss Circus Atari. I WILL CUT THEM.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]wtf, 2009-03-05 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2009-03-05 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2009-03-06 06:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bishounenhideto, 2009-03-07 08:28 pm UTC
reposted because math is hard
[info]persona
2009-03-05 09:31 pm UTC (link)
I love that this game, more than ten years later, is still bringing the wank. FFVII fandom (and anti-fandom), never change.

(Reply to this)


[info]sarracenia
2009-03-05 09:59 pm UTC (link)
I laugh now, but if they ever get around to saying that Chrono Trigger is overrated I'll be in there wanking like mad. (Assuming I notice it, at least.) My childhood~

(Reply to this)


[info]undomielregina
2009-03-05 10:00 pm UTC (link)
I'm just glad that Planescape: Torment got a mention in the Western RPG thread. I haven't even gotten out of the first area yet, but I can already tell that it's going to live up to the hype.

(Although, no kudos to Deus Ex in there, whut?)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]omnicrom, 2009-03-07 03:21 am UTC

[info]jkefka
2009-03-05 10:16 pm UTC (link)
Ahh, the tiny fists of fanboy rage waving frantically in the air.

Rather than offering my thoughts about VII, I shall merely link to this comic. I think that about sums it up.

If they were calling VI overrated I would be stabbing people.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tez, 2009-03-05 10:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2009-03-05 11:02 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]tez, 2009-03-05 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2009-03-06 12:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2009-03-06 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2009-03-06 12:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tez, 2009-03-06 12:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nibor, 2009-03-06 02:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marsdragon, 2009-03-06 04:16 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]amxjm, 2009-03-06 11:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stopthatgirl7, 2009-03-08 03:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stopthatgirl7, 2009-03-08 03:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]finchbird, 2009-03-05 11:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 01:59 am UTC

[info]singe
2009-03-05 10:24 pm UTC (link)
You want retro? I gotcher retro right HERE!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]argylespy, 2009-03-06 01:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]singe, 2009-03-06 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2009-03-06 06:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]singe, 2009-03-06 10:15 pm UTC

[info]rushikayu13
2009-03-05 10:25 pm UTC (link)
The OP has Pin icons! *is more happy about that than she has any right to be*

...FFVII wasn't a bad game, but it isn't one of my favourites. As soon as Sephiroth shows up, the entire plot goes out the window and all of that rather epic world building just gets simplified to "wherever you're chasing him/being chased by ShinRa next". The music is good, the graphics are excellent for their time, but to be honest, the only part of it that I still find worth it is the glow of pride when you beat the Emerald or Ruby Weapons (I beat Emerald once about five years ago, never quite managed to beat Ruby though).

Of course, I like VIII, X and XII so I guess I have no taste in Final Fantasies (also, the Demon Wall worked better in IV, while we're criticising VII!).

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]white_serpent, 2009-03-05 11:09 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2009-03-06 11:38 pm UTC

[info]the__ivorytower
2009-03-05 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Slow day at IGN, is it?

I will finish FFVI some day, go back and play Final Fantasy, and then run out of those games I'm willing to play. Mostly, because I like handhelds and I'm very, very lazy.

(Reply to this)


[info]bof
2009-03-05 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Overrated or not, I can't hate a game that gives me endless funnies like this.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yhibiki, 2009-03-05 10:31 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]stopthatgirl7, 2009-03-08 03:16 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]aerobot, 2009-04-02 10:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phoenix_knight, 2009-04-03 03:21 am UTC

janegray
2009-03-05 10:29 pm UTC (link)
The fanboys are wankers, but the article itself isn't exactly a shining beacon of objectiveness.

Colin Moriarty of IGN Guides smacks down the Final Fantasy VII crew with, "Cloud is a useless main character, and his supporting cast is a laughable collection when you consider the casts of Final Fantasy IV and VI."
Moriarty also argues that the game is overrated, but he approaches it from the beginning of the series instead of what has come in Final Fantasy VII's berth. "It's far from being the be-all/end-all that so many make it out to be," he said. "It's not even remotely in the list of the best RPGs of all-time, in my opinion, and just about every Final Fantasy game that preceded it is far, far better. Final Fantasy VI, for instance, can easily be classified not only as the best Final Fantasy game, but one of the best RPGs of all-time."


Pot, meet kettle.

Even if Kefka could totally kick Sephiroth's ass (what? HE COULD! And he'd make it hilarious!)

But Thomsen doesn't buy it, characterizing the sales pitch as nothing short of gimcrack. "It sold a vision of gaming that, for a moment in history, convinced a lot of people that RPG's were more than just Dungeon's & Dragons-style chart-keeping," says Thomsen. "Final Fantasy lured people with the promise that gaming was an action-packed spectacle filled with dozens of hours of razzle-dazzle that outstripped Hollywood."
So then how does Thomsen describe Final Fantasy VII? The hardcore fans that celebrate the game as one of the unshakable greats best skip to the next paragraph. "FFVII was an unholy hybrid of Chuck Norris action, surreal anime, turn-based combat, and an obtuse weapon upgrade system," he snorts.


And what part of that is not fun? Cheer up, Mr. Grinch! :P

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yhibiki, 2009-03-05 10:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonsong12, 2009-03-05 11:03 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2009-03-06 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 02:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trinity_destler, 2009-03-06 05:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 03:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seca, 2009-03-06 07:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2009-03-06 07:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-07 02:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seca, 2009-03-07 04:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-07 04:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seca, 2009-03-08 05:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2009-03-08 09:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evening_rose, 2009-03-09 10:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2009-03-11 08:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evening_rose, 2009-03-11 11:10 pm UTC

[info]seventhe
2009-03-05 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Have the Aeris/Tifa shipwars resurfaced yet? Because this go-around I want to be part of that shit!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bof, 2009-03-05 10:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seventhe, 2009-03-05 10:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2009-03-05 10:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seventhe, 2009-03-05 10:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ghostmaster, 2009-03-05 10:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2009-03-05 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bof, 2009-03-05 11:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2009-03-06 01:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]makeshyft, 2009-03-06 12:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cassildra, 2009-03-06 12:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phoenix_knight, 2009-04-02 05:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2009-03-06 12:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seventhe, 2009-03-06 06:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taktuk, 2009-03-13 01:19 am UTC

[info]ghostmaster
2009-03-05 10:40 pm UTC (link)
papavicio: its wrong its not overrated is a LEGEND, all games in the world including Zelda should worship, this, estuans interius ira vehementi SEPHIROTH!!! the best game ever , everytime i listen to obuo uematus's one winged angel i get a hard on

Think he knows Nobuo didn't write the lyrics? Also, this.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ari_o, 2009-03-05 11:04 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 05:22 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2009-03-06 07:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-07 02:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2009-03-08 09:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stopthatgirl7, 2009-03-08 03:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2009-03-05 11:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 02:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zara_zero, 2009-03-06 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 03:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2009-03-06 07:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chofi, 2009-03-09 01:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]risha, 2009-03-06 04:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ghostmaster, 2009-03-06 09:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reeve, 2009-03-06 04:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reeve, 2009-03-06 04:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-07 02:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2009-03-06 11:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]varethane, 2009-03-06 07:49 am UTC

[info]hylarn
2009-03-05 11:40 pm UTC (link)
It's possible for things to be both overrated and good. Why does nobody accept that?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 02:27 am UTC

[info]lakme
2009-03-05 11:56 pm UTC (link)
And to think that I would have been a part of this wank back in the day, when I liked Final Fantasy. D:

(Reply to this)


[info]firefly99
2009-03-06 12:06 am UTC (link)
..........I just can't look.

Oh god. Why is video game wank always so - foul? You just feel unclean and ugly after reading it, and really really angry. Like you've just taken off all your clothes, gone into the shower, and the water that came out was suspiciously yellow. And when you run out of the shower holding your nose and dripping nastily, you see a guy standing in the corner of the room, watching you. That's how video game wank makes me feel.

I'm just going to link to the single most powerful moment of FF7 so you can all realise how overrated the game isn't.

Also, I can't stand the hard on for One Winged Angel, because the Overworld theme is still one of my favourite pieces of music ever written and it's really calming and nice to listen to while you read video game wank because it reminds you the world isn't so bad and is full of pretty appogiaturas and slightly dark discordant sections which are redeemed by a pretty little fanfare! Look, here's an orchestral arrangement and a piano arrangement. Also here's an awesome live version of the Costa del Sol theme, which doesn't have anything to do with anything but it's still awesome.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brennalarose, 2009-03-06 02:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2009-03-06 02:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lessis, 2009-03-06 12:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chofi, 2009-03-09 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]adevyish, 2009-03-09 08:10 am UTC

[info]digigirl132
2009-03-06 02:08 am UTC (link)
You know, I'm hesitant to look at that, and it's not because I like FFVII or hate FVII or whatever. It's because I've found that FFVII fanboys are scary as all HELL. Jesus, their one-minded obsession with the game and their readiness to froth at the mouth if anyone calls their sacred game anything besides 'amazing' is terrifying.

I met someone like that while I was in college. They played all of the FF games, but FFVII was their absolute favorite. If they weren't playing whatever new FF game was out, then they were playing that for the 18-bajillionth time. I remember one time I 'dared' to suggest that he play another game, and he basically ranted angrily at me about the greatness of Final Fantasy and how no other series could ever possibly be better. Yeah.

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[info]inarticulate
2009-03-06 02:21 am UTC (link)
I will never again in my life see a video game where the main male character is invited into a bath for some group sex with burly men just so that he can wear girly underwear to seduce a horny criminal. I'm not quite sure how anyone can take this game seriously on either side enough to wank over, but damn if it isn't hilarious.

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(no subject) - [info]gunshou, 2009-03-06 02:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2009-03-06 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - janegray, 2009-03-06 12:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]firefly99, 2009-03-06 02:26 pm UTC

[info]tardiscontrol
2009-03-06 02:37 am UTC (link)
I'd say that my main N64 childhood game is safe, but I'd rather prefer it being up on the chopping block if that meant having a bigger fandom.

*is a Banjo Kazooie nut*

As for my main childhood game/fandom regardless of console on the other hand... I'm looking forward to a possible review and wank over Pokemon. Is it too much to hope?

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[info]nibor
2009-03-06 02:41 am UTC (link)
Final Fantasy fanboys amuse me to no end. Mostly because if your favorite is different from their favorite they start raging. Watching their reactions when I say II is my favorite is endlessly amusing because it's usually not mentioned at all or regarded very lowly.

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[info]agrias
2009-03-06 02:58 am UTC (link)
Aaaah, this reminds me of the wank in the comments of IGN's "top 100 games" list. FFVII was ranked as #76, behind FFIV, FFT, and FFVI. Someone protested VII's low placing on the basis that it "Made a lot of people learn how to cry"

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[info]seca
2009-03-06 03:14 am UTC (link)
I'm a bit sad Suikoden didn't get a mention.

And the only FF games I ever actually finished were FF 4, 6 and 9. Everything else I ended up quitting at some point and never went back to.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eldritch, 2009-03-06 03:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]makeshyft, 2009-03-06 04:12 am UTC



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