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fern_on_fen ([info]fern_on_fen) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2009-05-17 13:28:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:baleetion, bannination, community: fanficrants, dead gay headmaster, fandom: star trek, fanfic, isn't it awfully nice to have a penis, misogyny soup, outraged mice, penis, persecution, plucky girl detective, pseuicide, rape is not funny, sci-fi people like to fight, sexism, social experiment, troll, wankers who will not shut up, wanking inside the house, you're all assholes

Wank: The Final Frontier
As those of you who haven't been living under a rock may know, a new Star Trek movie just came out. Over on [info]fanficrants, [info]roq is upset about this. Apparently, TEENAGERS are now WRITING in HER fandom! Quelle suprise!

She has some choice words to say about it.



The highlights of the rant include:

Star Trek is the second oldest fandom in existence...

Because of this, I honestly don't think you can bring a new idea to the fandom. We've seen it all before, really...So that extraspiffy idea you have? We've probably seen it. What this means is that you'll need more than a gimick to keep our attention. You will need to write well. I'm not asking for Tolstoy but basic sentence structure is nice and maybe a plot or at least good characterization.

There's no such thing as an original idea? She must be right, because even that idea sounds familiar...

Two. Do not talk to me about cannon. Do not come over to my happy little ship and whine that K/S is not cannon because Spock and Uhura have a relationship. You may not be familiar with Trekkies. We are not like the Harry Potter fandom.

Guys, I think we've been told. I dunno why we're talking to her about armoury, but w/e. We are not ALLOWEd to write fanfiction within her ship unless we pass STRINGENT STANDARDS.

Also? K/S has never been cannon and probably never will. You know what? We don't care. It's fanfiction. We're changing the world just enough that K/S happens. That's it. If you have a problem with it, don't fucking read it. Go over to S/U and be happy.

The rant goes on in this vein for a while. And then there's the comments.

At first the comments at the community are overwhelmingly supportive and generally non-combative.

But then someone's fannish entitlement alarm goes off, and the shit hits the fan:

[info]kuromitsu starts: Remember, children, this fandom has been around since before you were born. You must follow all of its ancient conventions, must strive to gain the respect of older members, and most importantly you must. not. have. fun with it your own way lest the older fans not like it.

Fandom = serious business, damn it! God forbid you enjoy yourself!

[info]helen_damnation responds: Thank you. I was starting to think I was the only person annoyed by all the "thou shalt not"s.

I haven't seen the movie yet, though I intend to. I don't intend to watch the series. Know why? Because I don't want to. I want to watch the movie. I might write fic for the movie, I don't know yet. That's my right. I'm also very fond of portmanteaus. That's also my right.

Take your own advice and get over it.

It's all downhill from there.

Some choice bits include a "DAMN KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!" quote, some accusations that the Star Trek fandom is the angriest and wankiest of all fandoms, some people pointing out how canon is spelt, an indignant Harry Potter fan, and a question on apropriate newbie etiquette.

And it's still going.

This one looks GOOD. I think I've already made Bingo.

ETA: Collateral damage wank on ffrantsrants located here.

Also, links are corrected now. Server is being robust, though, so steady on, folks.

ETA2: [info]roq bites back. Apparently he is a he.

Also:

So, according to the people over at fanfic rants, I'm an arrogant, condescending, hypocritical asshole with a stick up my ass.

Good to know.

Wow, you'd think I wasn't dealing with a rant community or something. Oh, wait.

RANTING COMMUNITIES ARE FOR RANTING! Also, I've forgotten to assume that everyone on the internet has a penis. My inability to remain stuck in the early 90's means that I don't understand a lot of what [info]roq says.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 10:44 am UTC (link)
Second/third/fourth/whatevering the proof plz. Also!

People cannot just refrain from saying things because a person might be unable to cope with it. You can't stop all places where speaking out is allowed because sometimes it gets misused. The world would just stop. The only way to prevent things like that is to treat the underlying cause, not tiptoe around the issue to the extent things like f_w are outlawed.

...Oh hey, I went all srs bsns.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 10:59 am UTC (link)
It's funny, but I know exactly what he would say to that. He would say that you can choose to refrain from participating in that. But if the "everyone else is being a miserable asshole, so I will be one too." excuse works for you, run with it.

Also, you aren't speaking out against anything here. Delusions of nobility aside, this site exist so that a bunch of people can anonymously insult, attack and berate others for being different, for being weird, for being confusing, for having poorly organized thoughts.

This site exists as a celebration of human cruelty. I don't want to see this site outlawed, I just want you people to understand that ripping into complete strangers with mental health issues because they say weird things you don't understand doesn't make you witty, funny, or cool.

It just makes you a mean person. It's not like any you needed to attack him, needed to make him feel like pathetic loser -- even if he was one! It may have entertained you for an afternoon, but you in your fun you convinced him that behind every smiling face was someone with a knife behind their back, waiting for him to slip up so they could mock him. He couldn't deal with.

And no, it's not your fault that he had mental health issues. It's not your fault that he used his time on the internet to talk about things that...normal people don't talk about.

But you all make the choice to come here, to read this site, to participate in the gang-ups, to participate in destroying people, mocking them, humiliating them, all for your entertainment. And that is your fault.

I know you didn't mean to push him like that. I know that when you were attacking him your goal wasn't to drive him into a suicidal depression. But I don't know what goal you could have possibly had that would excuse the actual result. I know the goals of this site aren't defensible, and that the consequences of being targeted by forums like this for those targeted are never good.

But I'm sure you had a good laugh at his expense, so hey, what does it matter that he killed himself. People cannot just refrain from saying things because a person might be unable to cope with it, right?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 11:01 am UTC (link)
You need to get over yourself. Quickly.

Aren't you anonymously attacking and berating people here? Or does it not count when you're doing it?

OMG I think I might kill myself because you're berating me!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 11:35 am UTC (link)
How am I attacking and berating you? I'm simply pointing out that the consequences of singling people out for mockery are not pretty. Does this forum not exist to mock the people you declare stupid? The profile reads "Mock. Mockmockmock. Mockity-mock-mock."

All I am saying is that you mocked my friend, and apparently many of you broke the rules and trolled him. Some of you even befriended him, acted like his friend, and then reported back the content of private conversations with him to this forum.

There was a girl on livejournal he liked (he called her "the unicorn" because she is apparently very attractive and plays D&D, and he thought cute gamers were "mythological creatures"), and once he told her that he thought it was sad she was "childfree" because she seemed smart and it seemed to him that smart women eschewed having kids. This doesn't surprise me at all, since he said the same thing to me and most every other woman I know. Everytime I would start dating a new guy he'd ask me if we we're going to have kids. Like I said, he was a weird guy who thought weird things.

But she reported in on this forum as he "wanted her to have his babies." Which was never what he meant, when he said he thought it was sad that only stupid people seemed to want to have kids, he meant just that. He was obsessed with this idea that stupid people were going to outbreed smart people and lead to the dumbing down of the human race. I remember when I saw Idiocracy, I thought "Oh wow, this is exactly what *** is always talking about!" I suddenly understood why he seemed to fret so much over the "wrong people" choosing to be childfree.

But she thought it was hilarious fun to tell everyone what a pathetic loser her was (though she'd never met him IRL and had only known him on livejournal a few months) and how he "wanted her to have his babies." Because that's a lot funnier than the truth, right?

You can't even begin to imagine how much that hurt him. To him, that was a high compliment. He was just trying to tell her that he appreciated her ability to contribute to the betterment of human society, or something. It was never about her and him, I doubt he could even imagine her and him as a possibility, he didn't seem to be able to imagine any woman being attracted to him and seemed to aim unerringly for the friend zone (and in retrospect, I feel bad about never making an effort to set him up with anyone). She turned it into this horrible thing that played right into his worst fears, that woman hated him and he would be alone forever.

Why am I even telling you this? You don't care.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
[info]moljn
2009-05-19 01:39 pm UTC (link)
On one hand, you don't want to name him, but on the other, you give out all this information that'd help to identify him if anyone could be bothered to look through years of FW posts.

And as someone who can recognize parts of herself in your description of your friend, let me say that one either tries to tone it down or live with the fact that one is going to weird out people on a regular basis. Yeah, it can hurt, and it would be nice if people could understand where one is coming from, but you know whose problem it's not? Everybody else's. They have their own lives and issues to deal with.

Your friend needed professional help. He didn't get it and that's sad, but without proof I'm not going to lay the blame on anyone.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 01:55 pm UTC (link)
Oh right, right, I forgot. When someone is weird and other people make fun of them for it, that's their fault. They should just stop being weird. Nevermind that people who are lacking in social graces, and my friend was certainly one of those, can't help being weird.

Do you apply this same logic to people who attack homosexuals for being "weird?" It's not the homophobes fault they played "smear the queer," he was being weird? Do you ever find yourself saying "Well if you're going to walk down the streets holding hands with someone of the same sex, you just have to expect to be called a faggot."

Because if you don't, then I wonder where exactly the line is drawn? If you can recognize that ganging up on a homosexual and attacking them for being different is wrong, why can't you recognize that ganging up on a "wanker" for being different is every bit as wrong?

My friend did nothing to you. He was shining on like the crazy diamond he was. You attacked him for that. You don't get to blame him for what you did.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]moljn, 2009-05-19 02:21 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 02:36 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]moljn, 2009-05-19 02:42 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 03:31 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]moljn, 2009-05-19 03:41 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 03:53 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]moljn, 2009-05-19 04:28 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]spawn_of_kong, 2009-05-19 08:31 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]sisterelwood, 2009-05-19 11:16 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 08:29 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 07:41 pm UTC (link)
*Shudder* If you aren't strong enough to handle criticism, it's a poor idea to go around spouting controversial and potentially offensive opinions. Particularly in a forum know for its blunt responses to idiocy.

I don't know whether your friend killed himself or not. If he killed himself because people he didn't know were mean to him on the internet, he was clearly a very troubled young man, who needed professional help.

I do know that beating people up on the internet for it is creepy, cruel, and pathetic. I have lost friends to suicide, I have experienced suicidal ideation myself. The idea of blaming someone else for it, particularly people so peripheral to his life, makes me feel fucking embarassed for you. As far as I'm concerned, you are the person who is being inappropriate here.

If you intend to answer my comment, be so good as to STOP and THINK about what I said above, before you do so.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 08:31 pm UTC (link)
It's lovecrafty, pretending to be a friend of his reporting on his death.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
[info]schoenschoen
2009-05-19 09:26 pm UTC (link)
he thought it was sad she was "childfree" because she seemed smart and it seemed to him that smart women eschewed having kids. This doesn't surprise me at all, since he said the same thing to me and most every other woman I know. Everytime I would start dating a new guy he'd ask me if we we're going to have kids.

Umm. You do realize that this makes your friend a Grade-A creeper, right? Even if he WASN'T telling the girl he wanted her to have his kids (really? Calling her 'A Unicorn'? Crush, anyone?), that's still mega-friggin'-creepy. It's none of his damn business what his female friends do with their uteri, and she was right to report him.

But why am I even replying to this? You're just a troll.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
[info]seiberwing
2009-05-21 12:15 pm UTC (link)
And he'd only known her on LJ, and only for a few months. That's a great period of time in which to be friendly enough to comment on people's reproductive habits.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 11:13 am UTC (link)
Wow. Are you aware of how incredibly common it is to strike out at people by claiming someone has committed suicide? Really, it happens all the time on the internet. Think about THAT before you condescend to those who won't believe your tale without proof.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 11:40 am UTC (link)
No, I had no idea it was common.

Maybe this was a bad idea. But there were so many times I told him to just get over it, and it was only after his mom told me that he name checked this forum that I finally read what you'd written about him...and its so hateful, so awful, so cruel, I just had to say something.

Obviously saying something is pointless, since I apparently have to name him, and I'm not going to do that to his memory. You've mocked him enough. now you're mocking me.

I really should have seen that coming.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]phosfate
2009-05-19 01:51 pm UTC (link)
You've mocked him enough. now you're mocking me.

We are not mocking you. We simply have no reason to believe your story. You are a troll, an idiot, and very possibly a liar.

You don't want discussion. You want collective hand-wringing. You want crocodile tears and regret over something that may or may not ever have happened.

I have suffered very badly from depression and anxiety over my entire lifetime. I have even been suicidal. I will tell you one thing: What I have been through is not, and has never been, anyone else's fault.

If you want someone to blame for your friend's death, assuming he even existed, blame his illness.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]major_dallas
2009-05-19 01:57 pm UTC (link)
amen...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 01:58 pm UTC (link)
Sure, blame the illness. Don't blame the hundreds of women who decided that mocking him for months on end was tres funné, because surely that had nothing to do with it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2009-05-19 01:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2009-05-19 02:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ajatshatru, 2009-05-20 06:28 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]tunxeh, 2009-05-20 01:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]caito, 2009-05-20 02:10 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]caito, 2009-05-20 09:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2009-05-20 10:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2009-05-19 03:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kumquat_of_doom, 2009-05-20 02:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2009-05-20 06:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ajatshatru, 2009-05-20 06:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-05-19 05:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]senor_pinata, 2009-05-19 07:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-05-19 07:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]veleda_k, 2009-05-25 01:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bride_of_lister, 2009-05-19 02:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 02:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2009-05-19 02:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bigbigtruck, 2009-05-20 03:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyvyola, 2009-05-20 04:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rotten_fish, 2009-05-20 08:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]moljn, 2009-05-19 02:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2009-05-20 12:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]moljn, 2009-05-20 02:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ghostmaster, 2009-05-20 10:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ariadne484, 2009-05-19 02:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]msilverstar, 2009-05-19 04:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-05-19 03:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2009-05-19 03:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 04:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vzg, 2009-05-19 06:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyndra_falin, 2009-05-19 07:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vzg, 2009-05-19 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyndra_falin, 2009-05-19 10:07 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]beejium, 2009-05-19 08:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]vzg, 2009-05-19 08:33 pm UTC
BINGO! - [info]ari_o, 2009-05-19 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]animejosse, 2009-05-19 11:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arekuru, 2009-05-20 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2009-05-19 02:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 02:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2009-05-19 02:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 03:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2009-05-19 04:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2009-05-19 06:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mcity, 2009-05-19 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 05:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2009-05-19 05:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 05:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2009-05-19 06:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 06:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 07:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2009-05-19 07:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mcity, 2009-05-19 07:34 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]julian_black, 2009-05-19 07:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-05-20 08:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 03:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]faultypremise, 2009-05-19 03:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2009-05-19 05:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-05-19 08:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tachikoma01, 2009-05-20 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]serai, 2009-05-19 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]honorh, 2009-05-20 12:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ajatshatru, 2009-05-20 06:37 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]seeshellirun, 2009-05-20 07:46 am UTC

[info]ariadne484
2009-05-19 02:44 pm UTC (link)
Word. So much word.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ari_o
2009-05-19 04:41 pm UTC (link)
THIS! Whenever I've counted up all the pills in the house no one made me do it. Just like we never made this dude come here and obsess over our posts and threads.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 02:04 pm UTC (link)
Dude, seriously. I get wanked about (not on f_w yet, mind) all the time. Pointing out other people's mistakes as mistakes when they posted them to a public forum? Isn't a fucking crime. Most of the time those people are right and I was a damn idiot. Sometimes I think they were wrong.

You know what? F_w does go too far sometimes, I guess. I don't join in when it does. I occasionally may even get involved, though it used to be anon commenting was turned off so I couldn't and it's been dandy since, so.

But so do a lot of places I frequent IRL. People get assholish at public events I attend. Say utter shite that gets people running off crying. Doesn't mean those events shouldn't happen. Means the issue ITSELF should be dealt with.

I am of the firm opinion people with issues so deep seated as what you're describing need help beyond just shutting places like this down, quite frankly, and the world cannot revolve around exceptions.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 04:14 pm UTC (link)
But people don't point out his mistakes. They take what he said, claim it means something other than what he said, and then attack him for that.

Like the rape causes orgasms thing. He didn't say rape causes orgasms. He didn't say anything of the sort. He just said that pleasurable sex developed because otherwise sex would be really painful and more developed creatures wouldn't have sex. That's neither idiotic or a mistake. It was just a theory he had, and it makes a lot of sense to me, especially when you hear him go on about fleas with their penis spikes and spiders that eat their mates.

And despite saying very clearly that he wasn't justifying rape, that exactly what people accused him of. And nobody made an argument to show how he was justifying rape, they just said he was despite his claim to the contrary.

They demanded he show evidence, even though that was asking the impossible. He was talking about the evolutionary development of sexual pleasure, and people are like "citation plz" even though nobody anywhere could possibly honor that request. You can't ask someone in a livejournal comment to cite the entire history of sexual development.

Which is why all of the people who said he was wrong, stupid, didn't know what he was talking, none of them offered any alternative theories, none of them cited anything, none of them made any real attempt to show why he was wrong. They just declared him wrong, and worse, a likely rapists trying to justify his past rapes.

There isn't a single quote on his wiki entry that deserves to be wanked. Most of the comments are just the sort of pithy jokes Ken always made when people asked him dumb questions.

But none of that is really relevant, because the real issue is this: you don't have the right to choose who gets humiliated. That's wrong, and if you can't see that's wrong, then that's your own failing as a compassionate human being.

Attacking people for making mistakes may make you feel like you're smart, especially when you can gang up on the mistake with eight hundred other people and all congratulate yourself for it, but you never have that right. It's like Jesus said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." or "There is no judge but God."

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Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 04:58 pm UTC (link)
Uh.

So wait. He gave a theory, people said they wouldn't believe it without evidence. This is unjust? And again, no proof of any of these rapist accusations. That shit does not get chucked around here in my experience, not likely- that shit gets hauled over to unfunnybusiness and recipes get posted.

Sorry, but the way science works is that if you cannot give data that back something up then it doesn't frickin' count in the way people would like it to. Because assuming your common sense is right? Usually ends up being wrong. Our instictual way of dealing and rationalising things applies to humans and is adapted to apply to humans for everyday convenience and nature is FUCKED UP. Seriously, as you start to examine just how most species of animal, plant, whatever work it just becomes mind boggling. Because it shouldn't work, it makes no sense, but it DOES. That's actually my favourite part of biology. Anyway.

There ARE ways you could study that, by the way, via study of animals, controls, etc. But because I don't have data where I've attempted it I'm not going to lay it out because that would be freaking stupid. If someone wants to discuss a theory and doesn't say 'but I can't prove it, I'm not going to assume it's true, it's just worth considering considering the possibility it's true'? Then they better be damn prepared to back that theory up with nice facts.

"you don't have the right to choose who gets humiliated."

Um. So what you're saying is- never point out mistakes. Ever. Never discuss them. Never ever do anything that may cause humiliation, however slight the subject. If someone puts something up for discussion in public- and yes, the internet is PUBLIC- never discuss it. Only praise or ignore it.

God, your life must be so boring. If people were on eggshells like that around me I'd probably never talk to anyone because what would the damn point be?

(Also, I always disliked 'let he who is without sin...'. I mean really, since when did doing wrong things at times as everyone does mean you cannot recognise similar wrongdoing in others? If we acted like that the world would freakin' suck and nobody would ever get better, improve, be safer. Jesus had some neat ideas- presuming all of what is attributed to the guy came from him- and I find the Bible interesting, but there is a difference between the letter and the spirit of what he laid down.)

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Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 07:08 pm UTC (link)
"Sorry, but the way science works is that if you cannot give data that back something up then it doesn't frickin' count in the way people would like it to. Because assuming your common sense is right? "

I see no evidence that Ken ever relied on "common sense," and considering how often I heard him disparage common sense I don't think that was what he relied on. I imagine he didn't respond to such requests because they are ridiculous. The guy was talking about complex theories developed over the course of a lifetime based on wide readings, and that's not exactly easy to source. I did see him mention the book "Y: The Descent of Men," which I've also read (his copy) and I know that almost everything eh was talking about, the flea penises and the microscopic animals that mate with anything they touch, and the I didn't see a single person who disagree with him cite a single source. Not one. Just saying "You're wrong and stupid and creepy."

"Um. So what you're saying is- never point out mistakes. Ever. Never discuss them. Never ever do anything that may cause humiliation, however slight the subject. If someone puts something up for discussion in public- and yes, the internet is PUBLIC- never discuss it. Only praise or ignore it."

No, that's not what I said at all. There is a huge difference between pointing out a mistake and humiliating someone. Its the difference between saying "I think you are intentionally making a straw man out of my argument." and "You fucking idiot, you're so stupid, that was such an obvious strawman argument, no man would ever date a dumb cow like you."

You want to pretend there is no middle ground between 800 people mocking a person, many of them not even understanding what they are mocking, and offering no correction at all, and correcting another person's mistake.

Sorry, that's just not the case. There is a middle ground, and it's huge.

"God, your life must be so boring. If people were on eggshells like that around me I'd probably never talk to anyone because what would the damn point be?"

Hyperbolic much? I think you're the one with the boring life. I knit to keep myself entertained, you join in with a bunch of strangers to mock people you don't know out of some sort misguided belief that screaming insults at someone behind their back in this forum is "correcting their mistake."

Stupid dumb bitch! Fat ugly cow! Cum-guzzling gutter slut!

Have you realized the error of your ways? Should I insult you some more? Tell me when it starts becoming a constructive behavior.

By the way, the point Jesus was making is that you're a big fat stupid hypocrite.

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Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]sisterelwood, 2009-05-19 11:26 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]tezuka, 2009-05-20 02:48 am UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]sisterelwood, 2009-05-20 04:07 am UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]tezuka, 2009-05-20 05:10 am UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]ajatshatru, 2009-05-20 06:50 am UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]seiberwing, 2009-05-20 06:51 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]ajatshatru, 2009-05-20 11:49 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
[info]duraniedrama
2009-05-19 06:44 pm UTC (link)
But none of that is really relevant, because the real issue is this: you don't have the right to choose who gets humiliated.

Nonsense. Most civilized countries have the rights of free expression. Just as your friend had the right to spew his half-assed theories, people had the right to respond in kind. The fact that he didn't like the response and found it 'humiliating' was completely in how he chose to react to it and has next to nothing to do with what anybody actually said.

Eleanor Roosevelt said it best: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

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Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
[info]mcity
2009-05-19 07:27 pm UTC (link)
I still disagree with Mrs. Roosevelt, but the rest of the post is spot on.

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Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
[info]sandglass
2009-05-20 01:33 am UTC (link)
Not to defend Lovecrafty, but that's absolute bull and totally a defense of bullies. We have no control over how much other people hurt us.

You're right, the problem with his reactions--we do have control over is how much time we spend in places that cause us pain, whether or not we get help, what we say around other people, and what we change according to what they say to us. However, we cannot control how humiliated or inferior we feel and blaming the victim for their feelings is just wrong.

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Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]duraniedrama, 2009-05-20 03:09 am UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]sandglass, 2009-05-20 03:23 am UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]duraniedrama, 2009-05-20 03:45 am UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]sandglass, 2009-05-20 04:20 am UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]duraniedrama, 2009-05-20 01:07 pm UTC
Yes, she said, "Come sit right next to me." - [info]issendai, 2009-05-20 02:24 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]seiberwing, 2009-05-20 06:32 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]duraniedrama, 2009-05-20 08:17 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]seiberwing, 2009-05-20 08:19 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]duraniedrama, 2009-05-20 08:57 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]seiberwing, 2009-05-20 08:59 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]duraniedrama, 2009-05-20 09:16 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say. - [info]seiberwing, 2009-05-20 09:18 pm UTC
Re: My mother told me something about what to do when I had nothing nice to say.
(Anonymous)
2009-05-19 11:13 pm UTC (link)
"Reading through the comments, it appears that most if not all of you are women. So then this is what? A gossipy little clusterfuck where you all get to wank each other off while displaying the sort of passive-aggressive cowardice that makes being a girl synomous with being a snippity hypocritical bitch behind people's backs?"

So...he says stuff like that. He calls other people "snippy hypocritical bitches" but OMG EVERYONE ELSE IS BEING SO MEAAAAAANNNNN TO HIM IT MADE HIM KILL HIMSELF!!!!

Wow. So here is someone so ostensibly sensitive that he could not stand being made fun of on the Internet, yet he calls other people names and makes fun of them. You keep saying that FW doesn't have the right to pick on people; by the same argument, your friend didn't have the right to say that either. You cannot have it both ways. Would you hold your friend responsible if, because of being called a "snippy hypocritical bitch", one of those commenters had killed herself? From the attitude you have displayed here, it's pretty clear you wouldn't. You are maintaining an apologist attitude for his attitudes and actions while simultaneously attacking ours. As a longtime anonymouse here on F_W, I've never called anyone anything worse than a idiot or a moron, and I've certainly never trolled anyone on their LJ. You can't spread blame to an entire website for the actions of a few people who aren't even members here. You quote Jesus about throwing stones, then come here and sling them yourself. If there is no judge but God, why are you here judging us? No one here makes any claims of being nice, but I've also never seen anyone do the kind of stuff you are talking about. You also seem to have missed something major: we don't do things like rape wank here. That goes over in unfunny_business, not here in F_W. The "fake gravestone" you keep talking about is something that is done fairly frequently- it was not referring to his death, but to the "death" of one of his Livejournals. Get your facts straight. If your friend truly committed suicide, I'm sorry, but don't try and pawn your own guilt and grief off on us by claiming we are all terrible people. Guess what? I'm a Christian. I go to church every Sunday, and I try to live a good life. I've stuck up for special ed kids who have been picked on and fought against homophobia in my hometown. I play the oboe and clarinet to entertain people at my local nursing home. I volunteer three days a week at a local elementary school helping kids with reading difficulties. If I come here and spend five minutes a day saying "Good lord, Lady Sybilla is ridiculous for thinking that about copyright laws," does that undo all the good I do in the real world? You keep saying that we unfairly attacked your friend without knowing anything about him, his life, or his situation. It sure seems to me that you are judging us without knowing anything about us, our lives, or our situations. Attacking us for your friend's suicide may make you feel better, especially when it means that you don't have to accept any guilt you may feel over it yourself and you can congratulate yourself over making us feel guilty, but you don't have that right. As the Bible says, judge not, lest ye be judged.

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