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dhole ([info]dhole) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2009-10-07 00:20:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:apostrophe abuse, bannination, cons, don't make me come back there, fandom_wank's thoughts on yaoi, flouncing, omg mock people mock, please mommy make it stop, sci-fi people like to fight, taking it too seriously, the davinci wank, the mice defend her, wanking inside the house

Banned from Octocon!
Before I get started, a disclaimer: The closest connection I have to Irish fandom is that I've flown over bits of Ireland from time to time. And, when I was a kid, I saw a lot of commercials for Lucky Charms. So I'm probably going to be missing a few subtleties. Also, this is something that happened recently, and recently . . . recently isn't really the decade that I'm best at.

With that said, it seems that there's a guy named Pádraig Ó Méalóid. Who's active in Irish con-going fandom. Or at least, he's active in large parts of Irish con-going fandom. But not Octocon, the Irish National Convention, which is going to be held next weekend. You see Pádraig got a letter the other day, that went a little something like this:


Hello,

I'm writing on behalf of the 2009 Octocon Committee. I am the Co-Chair.

Due to your behaviour at the convention some time ago and your online behaviour earlier this year we have come to the unfortunate decision to ban you from this convention. We believe that your attitude towards us has been far to aggressive both online and in the past at the convention.

This matter is not open for discussion and we will not enter into any online discussion regarding this nor will we discuss this with any other persons. This decision is final.

We are deeply saddened by this as this is the first time a committee has had to ban someone. We will of course will refund your money; if you reply to me with your address I will forward this onto you as soon as possible.

Regards,

Nichola Hannigan


Now, if you're like me, you look at a letter like that, and think "she probably meant 'far too aggressive'." Also, you'd find that third paragraph amusingly repetitive. (I have to warn you, if that was actually your reaction, you're going to want to lay some tarp around your work area, as one of the links that comes later is going to make your head explode. And that's hard to clean up.)

And, if you're someone like Pádraig, you'll go ahead and post the letter to your livejournal. I mean, I'd have done that as well, but with far more mockery.

But Pádraig wasn't the only place in which this news was broken. Cheryl Morgan happened to mention it as well. To quote the seemingly innocuous paragraph:


In less good news my email is currently buzzing with the news that my good friend Pádraig Ó Méalóid has apparently been banned from the convention. I know that Pádraig has been rather critical of the Octocon committee this year, and perhaps rather more aggressive about it than he should have been, but I know my fan history well enough to remember that banning people from conventions rarely ends well. The right way to deal with one’s critics is to prove them wrong by running a great event.


Comment 3 is by one James Brophy, who was, at that point, on the Octocon committee. And he's there to link to the convention's Code of Conduct, and defend the committee's decision. Against all challengers.

The first one he takes on is Pádraig. To his protestations of "I don't know what the hell they're talking about," James replies with "You turned your ignorance of your own actions into a press release." Zing!

Then there's another challenger. Gary Farber replies in his own, inimitable fashion. And at great length. And other people agree with him. Also, Chris O'Shea points out that the code of conduct in question wasn't actually put up on the web last week, which is apparently after whatever happened that made them kick Pádraig out of the convention. It also is in the realm of possibility that the code went up after they sent the letter.

Chris concludes with:

Octocon’s PR has the ears of the world at the moment, it would be a good time to explain what is going on, because in the absence of such, things will only get worse.


James isn't going to take that lying down! In the next comment, he announces his resignation from the con committee, and comprehensively flips his shit. This is where the grammar induced head-explosions are going to start, by the way, as his language skills seem to go at the same time as his temper.

I'm not a hundred percent capable of parsing the claims in the post, but as I understand them, they more or less go as follows: a) Pádraig is a mean guy. b) Also, he says mean things, both to people, and about people. c) One time, he took some prints from a photographer that he shouldn't have.

Rather than do a play-by-play for the rest of the thread, I'll summarize. Gary makes fun of James's difficulties both with the English language and with logic. James explains that one of the lurkers who supports him isn't speaking up, because he's a writer, and fears that Cheryl Morgan will ruin his career. Cheryl gets upset at that, and bans James from her blog, until she's contacted by the guy in question. Which, rather surprisingly, she is, so she un-bans him. Various other members of the committee show up, not so much to explain their actions, as to explain that they wanted this to be kept private, and they are saddened that Pádraig has put his own interests above those of a convention which he's not allowed to attend.

As one might expect, there's some discussion about there elsewhere on the internet; the one bit that jumped out at me as providing useful data was a comment on lj which suggested that one of Pádraig's major sins was founding a convention that's been more successful than Octocon over the last decade or so.

And that's all I've got.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]hyeri
2009-10-07 12:10 am UTC (link)
imho, people here who use the Irish (NOT Gaelic...they get very twitchy if you use that word to describe their language) spellings/pronunciations of their names are pretentious as all get out and not worth bothering with. That said, I think the nearest English equivalent is Patrick O'Malley. Or some form thereof. I'd ask my kid who actually speaks/reads Irish, but he's in bed (for once) and actually asleep (for once...). (Irish is mandatory in schools here and they don't make allowances for newcomers. Nice huh? *sighs* Good for him that he learns fast...)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]witty
2009-10-07 01:20 am UTC (link)
I used to have Irish landlords (immigrants to the US) who had a son named Michéal. Anyway, I think the accent was over the E. The name was pronounced "MEE-holl" by his parents, and I thought, Parents, have you met a schoolyard of screaming children? Just call him Mike and get it over with.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]undomielregina
2009-10-07 09:50 am UTC (link)
The thing is, kids will figure out the damnedest ways to tease someone. My brother is named Angus, which you'd think would have let him in for a fair amount of mocking over the years. Not so much. the only time we know he got teased about his name was when the other kids found out that his first name is Charles. We all kinda boggled at that one.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]artimusdin
2009-10-07 01:26 am UTC (link)
... because yes, native peoples using the native spellings of their names are, by definition, pretentious. How dare those Juanita's, Xian Lee's, Akane's, Brighid's, and Dinah's be so egotistical. You might want to either rethink your stance or reword it, because you're coming off as rather egotistical and judgmental yourself, at the moment.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]negativecosine
2009-10-07 01:35 am UTC (link)
1. I think you want to be replying to , not , maybe?

2. Yes. Hi, let me dig up free links to this thingy my favorite professor wrote that you'd really really enjoy (and I base this presumption off this sole comment, yes, but he's a really adorable writer so you might enjoy it even if linguistic diversity doesn't fascinate your pants off like it does mine). (Or start googling "James McCloskey" + irish + linguistics, if you're impatient for my link-digging.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]artimusdin
2009-10-07 01:38 am UTC (link)
... Prolly. Hrm. Wonder why it posted here? *puzzled* Right, will repost to the correct person. I hope. I blame the near sun poisoning I got today, if it was indeed my fault.

Oohhh. Even if it doesn't manage to tickle my fancy, I know someone who would prolly be all <3 over it. <3~

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]negativecosine
2009-10-07 01:37 am UTC (link)
...Ooookay, weird html invisifail. Point 1 states that you want to be replying to witty</i>, not hyeri. I think.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]artimusdin
2009-10-07 01:43 am UTC (link)
Actually, no, was going for Hyeri, not Witty, but both could prolly stand to read it. *twitch* Hyeri is/was ragging on actual Irish people in Ireland naming their children using... Irish spellings of the name in question. Or so I'm getting from what she's said. So either s/he's mis-worded herself, or s/he's being the pretentious one by saying native people need to stop spelling things the way their culture does and instead needs to spell it the way s/he</a> does.

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(no subject) - [info]sisterelwood, 2009-10-07 02:00 am UTC
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[info]honorh
2009-10-07 09:31 am UTC (link)
. . . actually, Xian Lee and Akane there would already be Romanized, thus making them not at all written the way they would be in their native tongues. However, your point still stands for names written in the Roman alphabet. I would not expect my frient Tanja from Germany to switch to Tanya, nor Matteo from Italy to Matthew, just because we Mercans may stumble over their names.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]artimusdin
2009-10-07 12:40 pm UTC (link)
Yes, yes, but I can't write out the kanji for Akane and Xian Lee so I took the next best route. Unfortunately that meant using the Romanized version. =P

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]vorpal_blade
2009-10-07 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Plus, as far as I know, it's common enough in Ireland that no one thinks it's weird or pretentious and pretty much everyone knows how to pronounce the names, i.e., Niamh = Neeve, not Nee-amm. That's the culture.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]artimusdin
2009-10-07 09:24 pm UTC (link)
Yes. This.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mary_mac
2009-10-08 01:10 pm UTC (link)
Yep. Apart from Caoimhe, a name which is the subject of eternal North/South confusion over whether you say Qeeva or Keeva.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]fionnabhair
2009-10-12 11:30 pm UTC (link)
Not to mention that some Irish names simply don't have English equivalents. Mine doesn't (and I now live in England, so I have to explain it to everyone), and frankly if you've got a very 'Irish' surname, putting a non-Irish first name with it just sounds bizarre, which is how I ended up with an Irish first name as well. There would be something about Elizabeth or Natasha Ni Mhurichu, for instance (this is not my name, just an example) that does not sit well on the tongue.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sisterelwood
2009-10-07 01:55 am UTC (link)
Irish is mandatory in schools here and they don't make allowances for newcomers.

I'm going to risk being unfunny.

How dare a country expect people to speak their language. It's not like you moved into a new country or anything. I'm sure Ireland forced you to move there so how dare they expect you to know their language.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]honorh
2009-10-07 09:32 am UTC (link)
I, for one, disapprove of all these Japanese people speaking Japanese around me in their own country. They don't understand me! Waaah!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]panthea
2009-10-07 12:30 pm UTC (link)
...well, to be fair, Irish isn't exactly the everyday lingua franca in, er, Ireland.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sleepyjean
2009-10-07 06:16 pm UTC (link)
Stop using actual knowledge in your response!

But, yeah. Even the Irish learn Irish as a second language. It's essentially been dead as a native language for years.

But the resurgence of interest in it makes me happy. :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2009-10-07 06:28 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2009-10-07 07:43 pm UTC
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[info]castellated
2009-10-07 01:57 am UTC (link)
That said, I think the nearest English equivalent is Patrick O'Malley.

What's Gaelic for "Oops, guess I should've kept reading before replying"? :-)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]tez
2009-10-07 06:03 am UTC (link)
Go bhfeithe an díabhal na bpéist a n-íosfaidh tú!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sophistry
2009-10-07 06:16 am UTC (link)
Not touching your statement about Irish spellings or the Irish vs. 'Gaelic' can of worms, but:

Out of curiosity, how old is your son/how long have you been living in Ireland? It's been a few years since I was in school (I sat my Leaving Cert in 2004), but at least as I recall, two groups that were exempt from learning Irish were 1) students with certain learning disabilities, and 2) non-Irish students. I went to a school with a fairly high proportion of international students, and IIRC none of them were ever forced to study Irish. What I'm fuzzy on, though, is whether there are exceptions to that rule based on how young a foreign national kid starts out in the Irish system - and it may also be that even if your son is allowed an exemption, you might need to actively apply to the school for one rather than it being automatically granted.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]hyeri
2009-10-07 10:52 am UTC (link)
(admittedly got wanky there, which was not my intention. Having had a bad day is not an excuse for being a bitch. Sorry to everyone I offended and I'll shut up about that...)

As far as the language issue - we've been here 2 and a half years and before we even moved here, we looked into the various different areas, given my husband works in Dublin. Every single school told us that it was mandatory for him to learn Irish, so we weren't exactly given a choice. (other than to not move here, but that wasn't much of an option at the time either.) There are a lot of immigrants in this area too (Polish, African, Russian, etc.) and they all have had to learn as well.

Whether it actually differs depending on where you live, I have no idea. We're pretty much tied to living within decent driving distance of Dublin and we're on the outer edge of that even here as it is, but we did look into areas around Dublin itself (but they were too expensive) and every single place said Irish was mandatory.

I can certainly understand why, but it doesn't make it easy on the newcomers, that was all I was saying. They didn't give him any support other than being understanding that he can't spell or pronounce it properly, or form proper sentences, since he never learned that beyond what they're teaching at grade level. Given the high number of immigrants in this area, I would have thought they'd think to have a class to teach them the basics, but... *shrugs* It's a bit of an impossibility now with the gov't being so strapped for cash unless someone volunteers. (there was a news article recently about a school in the Cork area asking kids to bring their own toilet paper because they had to cut so much money from the budget....it's kind of sad really and not that much different than I can imagine everywhere else, given the economics...)

We travel a lot around Ireland and as far as I've been able to find out, this is true of the majority of places we've been. (so far we haven't been to Co. Mayo yet, but we'll get there eventually. We've been everywhere else tho...)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sophistry, 2009-10-07 01:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mary_mac, 2009-10-08 01:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]misachan, 2009-10-07 04:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darthfi, 2009-10-08 01:20 am UTC

[info]acari
2009-10-07 09:13 am UTC (link)
people here who use the Irish (NOT Gaelic...they get very twitchy if you use that word to describe their language) spellings/pronunciations of their names are pretentious as all get out and not worth bothering with.

You're right. How dare people use their ancestral language!

Irish is mandatory in schools here and they don't make allowances for newcomers.

That's not true either, but carry on.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]hyeri
2009-10-07 10:52 am UTC (link)
See my reply to [info]sophistry.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]doire
2009-10-07 01:49 pm UTC (link)
Why shouldn't I use the Irish spelling?

If I use the English spelling people think I've mispelt Dorry and call me Dorothy which is worse. Or Derek.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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