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seiberwing ([info]seiberwing) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2009-12-06 12:31:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:baleetion, dungeons and dragons, fantasy, interrogating from the wrong perspective

Your game is bad and you should feel bad.
On the Rpg.net forums, a review by Louis Catchet of Dungeons and Dragons, 4th edition is posted. The review has since been pulled (EDIT: [info]reeve has found us a copy, but going by the comments it seems to have been pretty negative and badly written. Some of it may be replicated here. Both his grammar and his ideas are criticized until the man himself shows up on page 2. And that's where the crazy starts.



I do not have a simulationist bias. I think games should be balanced, between playability and realism, and a game like MERP did that well, I think - to give You an example.

The imaturity bit; I think D&D is a tasteless product when it comes to the content. Besides, the authors are taking real mythic creatures and turning them into silly looking cartoons that does not resemble the myths whatsoever. This is an insult to the cultures from whence these myths comes. Now, that's my opinion.

You should differ between "simulation" and "feasible". Big difference. Magic is by the way feasible; our forefathers believed in it for tens and thousands of years.

For the "you" not "You" part. In most languages one addresses strangers with in a polite form, German "Sie" rather than "du", Danish "De" rather than "du", and so forth. I am sorry if my use of this politeness is a problem to the English speaking world.


Realism in the pretendy fun time magic games is also at stake here.

My point was that magic is feasible because intelligent human beings believed in it for a very long time. They believed in spirits, and that they could manipulate these spirits by the help of sorcery (spells, basically). This belief was very intellignet (reasonable), actually, but of course built on ignorance.

A flying eye, like the beholder, is not feasible. Spirits are, because there is no way to know they don't exist. We don't see them. Nor do we see any beholders, but we know that we never will, because we are familiar with the laws of nature. Therefore they are not feasible.


The thread continues in a likewise fashion, with posters protesting his opinions and Mr. Cachet coming up with some extremely random responses. Claims include the traditional get a life fallacy, claims that the sky is not actually blue, some bizarre infatuation with capitalizing You, claims they are interpreting the text from the wrong perspective and fantasy monsters not being called by the right names.

Then around page sixteen things take a weird diversion.


Well, mainstream showing does not drive me nut, but it did make me write a crappy review of D&D...

I think I already was a nut, by the way, even before fantasy was made mainstream by Peter jackson... :-p

When it comes to vampires; sure, I can argue that "vampires are not like that", but I have never bothered to play vampire games. It is too gay for me, really. I think the vampire thing is a lesbian thing. It's like an exchange of bodily fluids without involving any male body parts, so to speak. Colours are usually black and red = feminine colours.

The belief in vampires is indeed ancient, by the way, from Antiquity, and we can actually find remains of bodies in Northern Europe that are nailed to the ground in their graves with wooden poles. Not to kill the vampires, but to prevent the dead from rising from the graves (if possessed by trolls =evil spirits) to drink the blood of the living. The modern vampire myth on the other hand is... just a lesbian fantasy, I guess.


Oh deary me. So in between the wild claims that mythical creatures are only realistic if they cling to the original myths (and Christian myths don't count), we have red as a feminine color. Always. Throughout history.

In addition to laying extreme doubts that he's ever slept with a woman, he seems to have some very strange beliefs about what is real.

You are right, and I feel like a guy who left the cave, in the analogy of the cave. I know the shadows we are watching (in D&D and other games) are just shadows, and I have seen what created these shadows, but when I return to tell the others about what I saw, I face only mockery.

A game with a beholder.

Why not? But not a game with a beholder and mythic creatures, unless it was made perfectly clear that "a" is not a mythic creature, but "b" is. Please don't mix fact and fiction without letting us know what is fact and what is fiction.

Personally I play RPGs for the atmosphere, and need -- or want -- the atmoshpere to be authentic (whatever I mean by that...). My narrow mind refuses me to stay thrilled and excited when anacronisms occur all the time, when soemthing is plain wrong or stupid, and I am sure one can (easily) create an RPG without such problems. Our (not my own only) home brew does it well. (But creating everything from scratch is kind of time consuming, so I'd prefer it if some professionals were doing it instead).


The wrong continues and continues until the inevitable personal attack, the flounce, and the banning. Such is the cycle of wank.

Varyar

You don't have a clue do you?

Hey! I am speaking to ignorant fools... I don't know why I bother.

I thought RPGers were more intelligent than others. Maybe they are too, but certainly many of you aren't...

Thanks to those who had the brains and will to understand what I was saying.

Farewell.


Godspeed, you silly silly person.



(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]reeve
2009-12-06 09:04 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Especially on the vampires and colors thing.

Also, I found the original review. I'll copy-pasta here as well in case the Google cache disappears later on (all formatting intact):

Artwork

You can tell just by looking at the artwork on all the D&D 4e products that Wizards of the Coast (WotC) uses professional artists. You can however also tell that the art in these products is aimed at a young and still immature customer, my guess is around age 12-14. That is; a kid old enough to afford the D&D products, but still too young to have begun wasting his money on drugs, alcohol, mopeds, girls or something like that. From a capitalist point of view this is brilliant, but from a conservative gamer's point of view it reeks. I want mature games; deep, fantastic, yet feasible, faithful to the myths all fantasy is based upon and so forth. I don't want a cartoonish looking fantasy setting (like WoW) that is obvioualy made for immature kids.

With that said; WotC know what they are doing, and for a 12-14 year old kid, their target customer, D&D has great artwork and everything looks really "cool". The armours pictured would be suicide to wear in real life, some of the weapons would be completely unusable in real life, and so forth, but... I guess that's what immature kids want. I don't.

Layout

The layout in the D&D products is fine. It works well and I like it very much. This is professional work.

Readability

There is a book called "D&D for Dummies", and when I saw it in the bookstore my initial thought was; "I thought D&D was a RPG for dummies as it is? Why would anybody need this book?" Now, that might be a bit cruel to say, but really; the D&D core books are written so that even their target customer, the 12-14 year old kid, can grasp it all fairly easily. If written for even a slightly older customer, these books could have lost 50% "weight", at least, without loosing any valuable content. In fact; if 50% of the text was gone, it would have been easier to read and to grasp. More is not always better.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]reeve
2009-12-06 09:06 pm UTC (link)
Content

Oh dear. My "12-14 year old kid" line is already growing old by now, and even I am getting tired of it, but really... the content of this game is meant for...yes, You guessed it: 12-14 year old kids. To me fantasy is something fantastic, yet feasible. The Beholder is not feasible. Sorry. Flying eyes just doesn't do it for me. Nor do all the other freakish creatures in this game. Obviously WotC prefers quantity to quality when it comes to game creatures. The same can be said about the spells and other "abilities", and while at it; where in the 4th edition are the spells and abilities that can be used outside of combat? This is the main problem with D&D; it is not a roleplaying game, but a simple hack & slash game. The sole purpose of the D&D players is to kill monsters, in order to get more XP and/or GP and tons and tons of redicules magic items. If I wanted to do that I would play WoW online instead. Oh, and by the way; I don't, ...because I am not 12-14 years old.

The game system in itself is poor. The skill system went from terrible (original) to poor (AD&D) to okay (3.5) to terrible (4). Back in the 80ies I played MERP instead, or Rolemaster, or GURPS, or Call of Cthulul or any other system. We played AD&D too, and even some original D&D, but only when we were playing with... 12-14 year old kids who had problems playing a more complex game.

The combat system began terrible and never improved. For example: the AC system is just plain silly. Sure, it too works for fast and effecitve gaming, but it makes even the 12-14 year old kids feel like they are playing a game that makes no attempt at being realistic whatsoever. "I am wearing a plate armour, so I am harder to hit?" That just doesn't make sense. Even it You apply the logic that "it is more difficult to harm a person in plate armour". Sorry WotC; armour reduces damage done to the target when hit. It does not make the target more difficult to hit. In fact, plate armour makes the target easier to hit.

Fun Factor

To me this is not a fun game. It is just annoying. The rules treat me like an idiot, and any basic knowledge about myths, antiquity, the middle ages, medieval combat, ancient weapons or armour, human anatomy and so forth, just makes You want to throw this game out the window - or donate it to Your 10 year old cousin, or something. Sorry to say so, but I think ignorance is a prerequisite in order for You to like this game.

Summary

D&D was the first published RPG. For some time it was the only. I credit the popularity of D&D to this; it had no competition. Today the myth about D&D as a good game is maintained simply by the fact that WotC have the means to promote it, and the fact that it was the first RPG.

Now, imagine if the first automobile, the steam powered car from 1769, was still in production. It was the first car, okay, and since then it might have been upgraded and modified quite a few times. The original version. The AD&D version. The 3. The 3.5 and finally the 4. It is still that crappy steam-powered car from 1769 though, and I would rather drive any car from 2009 or 2010 than this steam-powered piece of junk. First is not best. First is most often the worst, as is the case with cars, and as is the case with RPGs.

When I tell others that I like RPGs, they most often think I am an imature fool, because they only know of D&D, and You know what? I don't blame them.

Still; as a hack & slash game for immature kids D&D still works fine, as it did back in the 70ies. The product is professionally made and physically of high quality. Because of that I cannot give it a 1 for "Style". It reeks from my piont of view, but it deserves a 3. When it comes to "Substance" though, I truly wasted my money on these books, and I give it a 1.

With all that said; it is actually okay to be both immature and 12-14 years old. So don't worry if You fall into that category. If You do, just think of D&D as just the game for You. :-)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]seiberwing
2009-12-06 09:12 pm UTC (link)
My hero.

I'll agree with his point that D&D seems to be slanted more towards hack-slash than it does actual pretending to be a character (or at least that's what the local boys and girls do). But if that's your think, I'm not seeing the problem.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]reeve
2009-12-06 09:53 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, exactly. Just because something isn't aimed toward your tastes doesn't necessarily make it bad, just something that should be taken into consideration.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]seiberwing
2009-12-06 09:55 pm UTC (link)
My guess is he was trying to troll by attacking "the holy grail" of gamers and missed the fact that many people don't like DnD but also don't like idiot reviews.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]lyssa
2009-12-06 10:08 pm UTC (link)
D&D has always been kinda hack and slash, but as the whole point of a system is to codify your character's abilities and limitations (and to a small point personality), I can't fault a rules set for focusing on skill checks and combat.

How different groups play D&D is more reliant than on the players than the system. Dungeon crawl groups are popular, but I've also had amazing roleplaying experiences using the system with no issues. It's a pretty good blank slate for a traditional fantasy game.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]seiberwing
2009-12-06 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it's like criticizing a FPS for having bullets in it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]eleutheria
2009-12-07 06:15 am UTC (link)
Yes, this. I've been in both Monty Haul dungeon crawl D&D games and very, very heavy RP D&D games. Depends on the group and how they house-rule it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]lyssa
2009-12-07 06:26 am UTC (link)
It's kinda annoying to see D&D always pigeonholed into "lol dungeon crawl number crunching" as the system is pretty open in terms of feel, scale, and GM creativity as long as you stay more or less in the realms of high fantasy.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]funwithrage
2009-12-07 03:47 pm UTC (link)
I've found it (and similar system-mostly-covers-combat games) lends itself to both extremes, actually: either combat and skills get a lot of emphasis, or you get a *lot* of roleplaying when interpersonal situations come up. After all, the system doesn't cover it, so it's all about how you can play it out.

My current game is occasionally silly, and some of the more MMORPG-y 4E skills (marking an opponent, for example) do lend themselves to snickering, but there's also a fair amount of RP. Light-hearted and four-color, mostly, but that's one of the reasons I'm running it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]istaerlus
2009-12-06 09:50 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I agree. I don't like Dungeons and Dragons myself but that's because I'm not their target demographic and they do a very good job of targeting their demographic.


I just wish some more mature games would advertise as hard as D&D does so people would know there's more options out there.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]istaerlus
2009-12-06 10:47 pm UTC (link)
Woops, that was supposed to be a reply to seiberwing's thread

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: D&D Review, continued (repost for small correction)
[info]anonyrat
2009-12-07 02:31 am UTC (link)
Other games don't have WotC's money.

Hell, D&D barely has money by big corporation standards.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ayala_atreides
2009-12-06 10:44 pm UTC (link)
"a kid old enough to afford the D&D products, but still too young to have begun wasting his money on drugs, alcohol, mopeds, girls or something like that."


Huh? Were they trying to be funny? O_o

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]reeve
2009-12-07 12:00 am UTC (link)
Mopeds are serious business.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]gold_bluepoint
2009-12-07 01:43 am UTC (link)
I know when *I* hit fifteen I started spending all my pocket money on smack and hookers.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]adevyish
2009-12-07 02:08 am UTC (link)
Don't you know, moped racing is a serious social issue!

*vrooms by at 50 km/h*

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]funwithrage
2009-12-07 03:51 pm UTC (link)
Wait, that's a *waste*?

I mean, except for the mopeds, I guess.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]miss_padfoot
2009-12-07 03:07 am UTC (link)
The armours pictured would be suicide to wear in real life

Yeah! And that's only okay for girl characters.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]eleutheria
2009-12-07 06:16 am UTC (link)
I don't want a cartoonish looking fantasy setting (like WoW) that is obvioualy made for immature kids.

Them's fightin' words!!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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