Lily Potter Wars, Part III: Death Eaters are like Muslims
Snapefen are still wanking about Lily Evans Potter. terri_testing posted an essay More on Lily's behavior in SWM: Lily the Prefect? on Snapedom. An excerpt from this essay:

Is it credible that Lily, a scant year later chosen to be Head Girl, was NOT a prefect in SWM?

Can anyone make a case (without violently contorting) that she was not?

Yet if she was: what does that say about her behavior in SWM? It was her perfectly duty as much as Lupin’s to discipline James and Sirius—both to stop their misbehavior, to punish them, and to prevent (one hopes, although in this case probably futilely) recidivism. Why isn’t Lily in there docking house points from Gryffindor and issuing detentions?

I mean, imagine if Hermione had found Cormac McLaggen and a couple of his friends ganging up on Ron. Or Percy witnessing several Gryffindors setting on Penelope. Would either of them credibly react as Lily does?

We know what we think of Prefect Lupin’s cowardice in not stopping his friends. But at least we understand his motives.

Lily’s motives…. Is she guilty of more favoritism than Snape at his worst, unwilling to punish her own house? (At least the Slytherins, as Whitehand points out, actually make considerable effort to make sure Snape doesn’t directly see their worst misbehavior. James checked to make sure Lily was watching before he started in on Snape!)

Is she a coward like Lupin, whose girlfriends have made her aware they will ostracize her if she punishes the wrong people (two popular, rich, good-looking Gryff boys, one a Quidditch star) or takes too many house points?

Is this James’s way of getting Lily to commit publicly to engaging him one-on-one rather than prefect-to-misbehaving student?

Or is she simply too weak to enforce her authority?

I can’t come up with any way to have Lily be a prefect and not look worse than Lupin.

Batshit flourishes in the comments:

duj

I wouldn't say that she's *worse* than Lupin as a prefect...just as bad, perhaps

Oh, no, definitely worse. Lupin's failure is from reluctance to discipline his best friends, to whom he owes "the best times of (his) life." Loyalty and affection, as much as spinelessness, influence him. What's her excuse? Why would she *not* use whatever authority she had to protect her friend?
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We're not questioning her prefectorial duties in general, but in this one instance. Lupin has reasons - poor reasons, but nevertheless understandable ones - to avoid taking a stand during SWM. He is aiding his friends. Lily doesn't have a credible reason for not exercising her authority. She is failing a friend.

Perhaps she wasn't willing to take points off her own house, but she could still have taken points from the onlookers and assigned detentions to the perpetrators. Even if it didn't deter James and Sirius, at least then the bullying would go into permanent school records, and maybe a teacher would actually read about it and be spurred into action.
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james potter was not a prefect either but became head boy later.

True. OTOH, we're aware of two special circumstances in his case; firstly that the fifth year prefect did such a poor job, and secondly that Dumbledore believed James had magnanimously saved an enemy who was trying to harm James's friend. Also, wasn't he Quidditch captain? That could well be an alternate route to Head Boy.

people would have reacted differently to her plea - or order - to leave severus snape alone. if not the marauders themselves, then others would have treated her with more respect

1) Her remarks were addressed exclusively to James, so everyone else was off the hook.
2) If James were the sort to be cowed by authority, he wouldn't have hexed Snape so publicly - or garnered so many detentions over the course of his schooling.

it would have been impossible for lupin to ignore the bullying the way he did had she been a fellow prefect.

I don't agree. Maybe if she'd reminded him of his duty - which she didn't, of course - but even then his loyalties were to his friends, not the school, so I tend to doubt it.

i don't think that lily evans was susceptible to peer pressure

And yet one of the arguments she gives Snape after SWM is "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you." So I think she was.

jkr does not describe her childhood explicitly but she must have felt isolated to a certain degree, especially from her sister

Must? I'd say she's the one who pulls away first, when she starts hanging with Snape against Petunia's wishes.

she stayed friends with severus snape

IMO, "stayed friends" is a bit strong, as I see *no* friendship in the post-Shack conversation. "Did not dump" is how I'd put it. But he is her only magical neighbour back home, and maybe she just wants to keep summer companionship an option.

despite his infatuation with the dark arts

For which we have only Sirius's testimony as evidence. In the post-Shack conversation Lily's complaining about Snape's *friends'* interest in Dark Magic, not his.

more than a little unusual with the first wizarding raging since 1970.

"Raging" is a bit stronger than canon supports. Lily doesn't mention feeling personally threatened, Snape seems unaware she could, and a few years later Regulus - a Death Eater's cousin - still thinks Voldemort is about putting purebloods in their rightful place, not about killing. For that matter, there's little support for a strong Gryffindor-Slytherin divide - as against a Marauders-Slytherin divide -on the subject back in the 70s.

when talking to james potter she wasn't afraid to tell him her opinion

Why should she be? She must have known she was the one non-Marauder student safe from being hexed. He might *threaten*, but as long as he was trying to date her, he wasn't likely to carry through. (Notice that she doesn't even pull out her wand until Sirius resumes hexing.)

in the end she turned her back on him but only after he lashed out against her

IMO, she'd effectively turned her back by the Shack incident, when his near-death incident raised no concern in her whatsoever.
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Mulciber and Avery and anyone of their prejudiced or evil caliber

We only have Lily's word that they are, in fifth year, "prejudiced or evil". Since "Mudblood" is apparently traditional usage for most purebloods, saying it isn't proof of malice. We do know at least one of them had an older Death Eater relative, and that two people of that name - probably those two, if Sirius told the truth about Snape's pals - became DEs in VW1, but we don't *know* when they started leaning that way. Even if they did become DEs, it's possible that they were unwilling recruits, forced or blackmailed into taking the Mark. Sirius said that lots of people were.

could otherwise tell them that he doesn't want to hang out with them anymore due to their actions/attitudes

How unSlytherin to tell them *that* was why he wasn't hanging out. A better choice would be to just pretend he was too busy with studies or something.

"Lily would then become his only source of friendly companionship"

Would she? You're assuming she would reward him by, at least sometimes, ditching her girlfriends to spend time with him. I find that vanishingly unlikely, because she's already too distant to bother checking up on him after he nearly *died*.

"As an introvert, I don't think he would find the lack of non-Lily companionship to be such a terrible fate."

As an introvert, I disagree. Even if he still had Lily's occasional companionship, when she wasn't hanging out with her other friends, he'd want options for social contact the rest of the time. Even introverts don't like being shunned.

"Severus would have to ward his bed, of course. Or better yet, an area surrounding his bed"

And his schoolbag, and his dinnerplate, and himself while in the bathroom, etc

"Then there's the other professors and Dumbledore, who could conceivably help him"

Conceivably is not the same as actually.

Dumbledore has already winked at a murder attempt, and after Hogwarts those same students who were involved were his chosen recruits for the Order. It's simply not realistic to include Dumbledore as a resource.

(BTW, you cite Dumbledore's stated concern for Draco's soul in HBP as proof that he cares about Slytherins. I'm among those who believe that was just a plausible excuse to avoid Draco becoming the new master of the Elder Wand. He wouldn't *tell* Snape that, of course, but it seems much more believable. When has Dumbledore ever intervened to steer Slytherins onto the right path so that their souls are not endangered?)

"Severus might have more of an uphill battle to success, but no more so than Lily"

She has a rich pureblood jock chasing her, and she can get success on his coattails by marrying him - an option not available to Snape ;~P

"I don't think it would be all that dire, ultimately."

I do. Those pureblood old-school-tie associations were all he had.

"Thus, he'd likely have even more bullying to deal ... Not insurmountable, but it would suck."

Bullies have already tried to kill him. You think he could surmount being targeted by more, this time from the people who are there when he sleeps?

That just doesn't seem realistic - as you say, it's your Pollyanna approach talking. But I don't think sticking to a best-case scenario is appropriate to this discussion. It would be more helpful to present the full range of best-to-worst-case scenarios. For example, I suspect his resulting isolation and powerlessness would leave him *more* open to DE intimidation, not less. What could he do when they came a-knocking, as they surely would, sooner or later? (Heck, they recruited Stan Shunpike. Snape has to be a better proposition than Stan.)

oryx_leucoryx

Small as the wizarding world is, there are other connections to be made within and outside of Slytherin. There's Slughorn, who is very connected. If Severus got into the Slug Club, that would be a very good contact, indeed. Sluggy's got connections out the whazoo. Then there's the other professors and Dumbledore, who could conceivably help him, I think.

Dumbledore? The one who failed to protect him from a werewolf? The one who forbade him to talk about how he nearly died? The one who made no effort to reign in the near-murderer (nor to beef up security around the near-murder weapon)? Why would Severus expect support or help from him?

Hwyla

I'll just add in regards to Sev's 'dark path' at 15 - not ONE insult that James and Sirius hurl at Snape during SWM had anything to do with his being a 'dark arts oddball'. They are entirely about his appearance and the 'fact that he 'exists'.

Let's add to that - Lily's only complaint at this point was that Sev apparently hung out with a guy who 'tried' to hex a girl with something 'dark' at a time when Sev wasn't even around. And then, we don't even know WHAT this spell was. WAS it dark? Surely if he tried to Imperio Mary it could have been proven, and then Mulciber would have been expelled. What other 'dark' curse COULD he have used that Snape would say was supposed to be funny? It certainly could not have been a Crucio.

But alternatively, according to JKR, ALL hexes, Jinxes, and curses ARE Dark - in other words, Ginny is throwing around 'dark magic' everytime she uses a bat-bogey hex. It seems to me that Mulciber's 'Dark' spell was most probably one of Sev's spells. The ones that Ron and Harry laugh over and think funny, but that Hermione reminds them include LeviCorpus which they had seen used at the World Cup.

This leads me to wonder whether since Hogwarts doesn't 'teach' dark arts, then would any spell that someone didn't recognize be automatically thought to be 'dark'? Especially if cast by a Slytherin? Is the Marauders' use of LeviCorpus NOT considered 'dark' only because the curse has been so popular already that year? And most especially because they don't know it was invented by a Slytherin?

All I can say is that while LILY thought Sev too 'dark' at the end of 5th year - HARRY still liked him and found him funny even through Sev's 6th year.

And lastly, about a Gryffindor and Slytherin being friends - this is in a school atmosphere that has had the Slug Club for a very long time, so a mixing of houses is actually more likely then than in Harry's time

marionros/smallpotato

>>>it's unlikely that lily evans was not a prefect at the time of swm. on the other hand - james potter was not a prefect either but became head boy later.<<<

Unless James was Quidditch Captain. Then he would've 'put in enough hours' as student-authority-figure to be eligable for Head Boy.

>>>also if she would have the authority to report or punish offenders people would have reacted differently to her plea - or order - to leave severus snape alone. if not the marauders themselves, then others would have treated her with more respect and would have obeyed her, or at least fled the scene so they wouldn't be punished later. <<<

Well, she isn't there to punish James, is she. She is there to flirt with James. If she had burst in with a 'fifty points from Gryffindor, Mr Potter, for being such a spineless bully', she would've gotten the point across that she was there to punish people, but she doesn't. She barges in there, neither throws a 'finitum' to release Snape from his misery or admonish the Marauders. What she *does* say ('what did he ever do to you?') is a sign of weakness. You don't ask an agressor what his victim did to provoke an attack if you want to defend the victim or punish the bully.

>>>but in the scene in the book no one really pays attention to her. it would have been impossible for lupin to ignore the bullying the way he did had she been a fellow prefect. <<<

The way Hermione reacts to Ron, her fellow Gryffindor prefect who punished kids for playing with that magical frisbee, only because he wanted to take it away from them to play with it himself, you mean? Because nepotism is unheard of at Hogwarts?

>>>i don't think that lily evans was susceptible to peer pressure. <<<

Which is why she uses 'my friends are all amazed why I hang out with you' as an excuse to put Snape under pressure to stop associating with his housemates.

>>>she is only briefly described by jkr but we learn about her that she was born into a muggle family - being aware of her special abilities even as a young child. jkr does not describe her childhood explicitly but she must have felt isolated to a certain degree, especially from her sister.<<<

She has a sister who adored her enough to be worried when she jumped off high places and who desperately wanted to follow her to her 'special school'. She had parents who adored her and were very proud of her being so 'special'. She had a friend who was 'special' as she was, who clearly adored her and who constantly deferred to her. She is described as 'very popular'. She is Slughorns Teachers Pet, and since Sluggie is the WW social network man, she could be assured of 'getting to know all the right people.

We could all wish to be as 'lonely'.

>>>although sorted into gryffindor she stayed friends with severus snape, despite his infatuation with the dark arts.<<<

Because him being 'infatuated with the dark arts' (whatever that might mean) means that he is Very Evil. Like Bill Weasley, the Dark Arts specialist Curse Breaker, I suppose, or Harry Potter, whose only 'O' is in DADA *and* who speaks Parseltongue to boot, which clearly indicates that he is Totally Evuhl. Right?

>>>in these times a friendship between a gryffindor and a slytherin would have been more than a little unusual with the first wizarding raging since 1970. <<<

Because Slytherins are all evil and Gryffs are all good and never the twain shall shake hands? Because all Slyths are Pureblood (apart from the Snapes and Riddles) and Gryffs are not (apart from the Potters, the Weasleys, the Longbottoms...) or at least not interested in blood the way the Slyths are (that's why two rich pureblood jerks target a poor halfblood) and would help a Muggleborn despite her being muggleborn (unlike that nasty Slyth Slughorn who would never give a muggleborn a membership in his prodigeous Slug club. Oh. Wait.)

It annoys three kinds of sh*t out of me when I read something like this. Why should a friendship between members of two houses be so strange? Because the houses are supposed to hate eachother and Lily therefore deserves Brownie points for allowing Sev to follow her around without kicking him all too hard?

>>>when talking to james potter she wasn't afraid to tell him her opinion and she saw through his attitude.<<<

"Oooh, James Potter, you are sooo *awful*" is not 'not being afraid to tell him her opinion, its called 'flirting'.

>>>it is true that in the end she turned her back on him but only after he lashed out against her.<<<

Actually, he didn't. He adressed his 'mudblood' comment to James. But it was wrong of him, even though I understand that he was provoked beyond reason by being set upon by a pack of bullies, and then his supposed 'friend' not only flirts with the leader of the pack, but she 'suppresses a smile' when said packleaders shows off to her by turning him upside down so everyone can see his threadbare underwear. Even the gentlest dog will snarl and bite if you prod him with pointed sticks long enough.

But it was wrong of him to call her 'mudblood'. Sure, he knew her, and knew that this was the one thing that would hurt her the most, and he wanted to both attack James' taste in the ladies as hurt Lily for her betrayal, but, as I said, he was wrong to call her a 'mudblood'.

He should've called her 'fucking unfaithful cow'.

>>>there was a reason she was sorted into gryffindor <<<

Vainglorious? Wanted to be admired, willy nilly?

->>>she might have tried to understand severus reasons for choosing "his path" <<<

Ah yes, Snape's 'path'. What path might this be, pray? His path to (cue creepy music) 'darkness'? His path to (dum dum dummm) being a Death Eater?!

He was 15. From the moment he put foot on that train, two rich pureblood bullies targetted him as an easy mark. He was both poor (clothing), halflblood (no magical family members to complain to their families), Slytherin (you can virtually *kill* a Slyth and still not be expelled! That's just *asking* for it, really. You can attack them just for *existing*, imagine that) and, maybe most telling, he was friends with, and listened to a *girl*. He might as well have painted a bulls eye on his forehead.
And what, exactly, did Lily berate him for? That he still associated with members of his own House. The people who, according to McGonegal, are 'your family' during your school years. The people who slept in the same place as he slept, whose Common Room he had to share. In short, Lily wants him to stop associating with them, because she thinks they are bad for him. All destined to become DE's.

That surely must've been one of the most prejudiced, racist things any character ever said in those books. She might've well said, "but they are all *muslims*, Sev, and you know what they say about Americans like me.. They want to kill us all.. You'll become a terrorist for sure if you don't denounce your heritage, your faith and your family".

The ironic thing is, of course, that Snape tried to warn her against *her* housemates, in particular the youthful criminals who, among other things, roamed the countryside with a Dark Creature. The ironic thing being that Snape had far more reason to think the Marauders were on a 'dark path' than any of his housemates.
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Waitaminute. You're saying that Sev should've cut off from 'bad Slyths' who 'play pranks' on students and ward his bed, etc. because they are evil and a bad influence, but Lily should be able to have friends in her own house that are criminals (illegal animagi, break schoolrules, break out Dark Creature from its confinement and let it loose, not to mention *attempt to murder a fellow student with said Dark Creature!*)? It's okay for her to flirt with the biggest school bully Hogwarts have ever seen, and become very defensive, agressive and accusing when Sev suggests that htey are up to no good, but Sev should listen to her when she tells him that he should stop associating with *his* housemates?

Not to mention how creepy Lily is in the first place with her controlling and abusive behaviour. Yes, abusive behaviour. Google 'warning signs of an abusive relationship' and you'll find the following, disturbing characteristics eerily familiar:

* Is jealous or possessive toward you. CHECK.

* Tries to control you by being very bossy or demanding. CHECK. Bossy and demanding are Miss Lily's middle names.

* Tries to isolate you by demanding you cut off social contacts and friendships. CHECK!

* Is violent and / or loses his or her temper quickly. CHECK. We see her constantly angry at Sev. It is a mistake to think that she must be angry because he constantly does 'wrong things'. She is angry because this makes him constantly unsure and easier to manipulate, but we are somehow encouraged to think it 'cute' (fiery redhead who is 'not afraid to give her opinion')

* Claims you are responsible for his or her emotional state. (This is a core diagnostic criteria for Codependency.) CHECK.

* Blames you when he or she mistreats you. CHECK.

* You frequently worry about how he or she will react to things you say or do. CHECK.

* Makes "jokes" that shame, humiliate, demean or embarrass you, weather privately or around family and friends. CHECK. (smiles when you are humiliated by the guy she flirts with falls under this header, wouldn't you think?)

For contrast, these are (some of the) markers of a healthy relationship:

• Talking and acting so that your partner feels safe and comfortable doing and saying things.

• Listening to your partner non-judgmentally.

• Being emotionally affirming and understanding.

• Valuing opinions.

• Supporting your partner’s goals in life.

• Respecting your partner’s right to his or her own feelings, friends, activities and opinions.

Do we see Miss Lily ever, but I mean *ever*, understanding, valuing, supportive or respectful of Sev's feelings, friends, opinions or activities? No.

(and please don't say that this is because Sev is a 'racist DE wannabe whose feelings, friends, opinions and activities are only good for being stomped on because they are too evil to exist' or something mindless like that, because then I'll just have to scream)