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dhole (![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} dhole) wrote in ![[info]](http://www.journalfen.net/img/community.gif){kind=small} fandom_wank,@ 2009-12-27 08:34:00 |
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It's funny, because it's called Outlaw Press.
Okay. This one isn't old, but it is about an old game; Tunnels and Trolls, the second role playing game ever published. It was a sort of simplified and sillier D&D, and while it had its enthusiasts, it more or less faded out of sight for a couple of decades.
Then came "the old school renaissance"; for one reason or another, people got back into the RPGs of the late 70s and early 80s. Sadly, I do not believe that they dress in period appropriate clothing while playing. So it's a renaissance, but not a faire type renaissance. Anyhow, T&T was one of those games which got a renewed surge of interest; the fifth edition of the game was published in 1979, and then there was a version 5.5 published in 2005.
Now, the company that originally published T&T was "Flying Buffalo", and they're still in business. But they weren't publishing much in the way of new stuff, so other people filled the gap. One such gap filler was "Outlaw Press", owned and operated by a fellow named James Shipman. T&T doesn't have an official 6th edition—it goes from 5.5 to 7, in part because Outlaw Press published an unofficial sixth edition, with the permission of the copyright holder.
So far, so incredibly boring, right?
But then things get interesting. Around the middle of last month, chiguayante started a thread on the RPGnet forums titled "Outlaw Press uses stolen art."
And here's the first post
Well, that isn't good.
Forums being what they are, it doesn't take long for people to step up defending Outlaw Press. By the third page in, you get RosenMcStern opening with: "If the art was used without permission, they are breaking the law (and it would surprise me, as the author of the book is not exactly a newbie in the industry). If the art was used lawfully, then we are breaking some laws by spoiling the publisher's reputation, not to mention OBS's. In any case, the debate is better moved elsewhere." He also posits that it might have been Herrera who plagiarized Bracey, rather than the other way around.
After RosenMcStern, grubman follows with, "Um…I just read this thread and I don’t see any proof of anything, just the Ops claim this is stolen art. It doesn’t appear that he has any knowledge of what deals or arrangements may or may not have been made by the publisher. Now this may very well be the case, but I would suggest having some sort of proof before slandering someone on a public forum. I’m recommending this thread be removed to protect you and RPGnet…unless you have some real proof? "
There's a fair amount of back and forth, for a while, with RosenMcStern getting increasingly indignant: "We are not law enforcers and it is not our business to do any investigation." "Please stop this now. Rpg.net is not a court."
It doesn't take too long before the apparently aptly named Outlaw Press changed to a non-infringing cover, without any explanation. Which proves RosenMcStern right:
And then things turn into a discussion about when it is or isn't appropriate to cry plagiarist. Then Kopfy enters the fray, arguing that Outlaw Press is a shady outfit, and that you can get better T&T stuff elsewhere. He then winds up tangling with RosenMcStern with sufficient vigor that RosenMcStern drops out of the conversation.
Which is a real pity, considering what comes next. On page 21, we get these post from John H.
And then, my friends, we are off to the races. Rather than going through a full play-by-play, I'll give you the results of the thread, in convenient image heavy .pdf form: Outlaw Press Covers Comparison List. There are about 70 plagiarized covers, there. This is only the covers, and not all of the covers that have been spotted as stolen; I'll just go ahead and assume that the interior art, which would be harder to track down and match, is 100% legit.
Naturally, there's a lot of "but, it's important to remember, that despite the fact that I was wrong, I could very easily have been right, and boy, wouldn't have the people arguing with me looked stupid then!" including from RosenMcStern.
Things heat up a bit later when someone links to Shipman's address, which turns out to be . . his parent's house. (No, not linking that one, sorry.) That's also where the DNS to the currently defunct Outlaw Press website resolves to. Amusing as the fact that Outlaw Press is being run out of Shipman's mom's basement, posting his address does bring in a Devil's advocate. This provokes what this sort of thing usually provokes, but eventually the guy gives up. Heck, even RosenMcStern gives up on the "he might have been right" line of argument.
There are a few more amusing tidbits in that thread—one of the people claiming that they've been infringed is a guy on deviant art called Paul. As it turns out, it's concept art from Gladiator. And not original to Paul. There are also complaints about Shipman stealing and selling Gamma World (another early RPG) stuff, and a less than complimentary account of how he got the T&T license in the first place.
As the RPGnet forums close threads when they get to a thousand posts, that's more or less where this line of discussion ends.
But it's not the end of the story. I'm just going to move over to Vin's T&T Trollbridge, a lower traffic forum that's focused on Tunnels and Trolls. Some of the stuff here was copied over onto the RPGnet forum, but a thousand posts is too many posts for me.
The thread on the Trollbridge starts off following along with the RPGnet forum, but then this comes up:
Apparently, you notice that they are the exact same thing. There are scans, further along, but you have to sign up to the forum to be able to download them.
And then the conversation gaves a link to this.
To summarize that: A guy named Olivier Legrand puts together a classical mythology themed RPG. He puts it on the web, and says that there will not be a print version; he doesn't want it to be sold, and he doesn't have the legal right to sell a product with some of the art he used. But there is a print version, put out by Outlaw Press, and being sold for $30. How can this be?
Well, Legrand shows up, and explains how this can be. The letter he sent to Shipman starts:
The thread there is hilarious, in its own modest way: Despite the general sympathy expressed for Legrand, a poster named Kersus is having none of it.
How can something be free, if I can't sell it? Huh? Huh? Do you want to call the police, and have them raid garage sales? I am a wacky free spirit! There are a couple of others posting in much the same vein, which is too much for Legrand, who leaves.
I also like the people who suggest that it was some sort of mistake. I mean, Lord knows how many times I've accidentally downloaded a free .pdf, sent it along to lulu, and sold the resulting books for thirty bucks a pop. I mean, stuff like this can happen to anyone!
Similarly, you get this.
You know, maybe it's me, but I'm starting to see a pattern here.
To continue: Shipman was, apparently, Selling T&T books he didn't have the legal right to sell
And then he shows up, and posts!
Sadly, he doesn't really continue the discussion, particularly those parts of the discussion where people point out that his license has been pulled.
He does, however, contribute this: "I've also heard that Outlaw Press guy slaps old people around, beats small innocent children and recently stole lunch money from a Nun. Its just despicable I say!"
While I'm willing to believe that he slaps old people around, and so on, I'd be more interested in a reply to this
Then someone notices that on the Amazon.com pages for various Outlaw Press titles, the authors listed aren't the actual authors, but are, for some reason, James Shipman.
Index, he copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory!
There's more, much on a fan forum called trollhalla, but there are some interfaces up with which I will not put. But while there is more, I think this is more or less enough.
Okay. This one isn't old, but it is about an old game; Tunnels and Trolls, the second role playing game ever published. It was a sort of simplified and sillier D&D, and while it had its enthusiasts, it more or less faded out of sight for a couple of decades.
Then came "the old school renaissance"; for one reason or another, people got back into the RPGs of the late 70s and early 80s. Sadly, I do not believe that they dress in period appropriate clothing while playing. So it's a renaissance, but not a faire type renaissance. Anyhow, T&T was one of those games which got a renewed surge of interest; the fifth edition of the game was published in 1979, and then there was a version 5.5 published in 2005.
Now, the company that originally published T&T was "Flying Buffalo", and they're still in business. But they weren't publishing much in the way of new stuff, so other people filled the gap. One such gap filler was "Outlaw Press", owned and operated by a fellow named James Shipman. T&T doesn't have an official 6th edition—it goes from 5.5 to 7, in part because Outlaw Press published an unofficial sixth edition, with the permission of the copyright holder.
So far, so incredibly boring, right?
But then things get interesting. Around the middle of last month, chiguayante started a thread on the RPGnet forums titled "Outlaw Press uses stolen art."
And here's the first post
So I was browsing through RPGnow today and I came across something that really pissed me off. The game on called "Hot Pursuit" by Outlaw Press has a cover that uses copyrighted art. The person claimed as the artist on the page is one Kevin Bracey, who is even complimented in the summary for his really cool art.
The ACTUAL artist is a man named Mauricio Herrera, a famous Chilean fantasy artist who works for the chilean equivalent of MtG known as Mitos y Leyendas. In fact, the art used on the cover of Hot Pursuit is from one of those cards, "Selkis" from the Dominios de Ra expansion set.
I could not find any actual contact information for the publisher on their site (not even an email address, wtf?) nor on RPGnow, so I'm getting the word out here instead. Just so anyone who cares about artist integrity, copyright and so on can know what's going on over there. And to let other artists know, you might want to take a look around to see if your art has been used as well.
Well, that isn't good.
Forums being what they are, it doesn't take long for people to step up defending Outlaw Press. By the third page in, you get RosenMcStern opening with: "If the art was used without permission, they are breaking the law (and it would surprise me, as the author of the book is not exactly a newbie in the industry). If the art was used lawfully, then we are breaking some laws by spoiling the publisher's reputation, not to mention OBS's. In any case, the debate is better moved elsewhere." He also posits that it might have been Herrera who plagiarized Bracey, rather than the other way around.
After RosenMcStern, grubman follows with, "Um…I just read this thread and I don’t see any proof of anything, just the Ops claim this is stolen art. It doesn’t appear that he has any knowledge of what deals or arrangements may or may not have been made by the publisher. Now this may very well be the case, but I would suggest having some sort of proof before slandering someone on a public forum. I’m recommending this thread be removed to protect you and RPGnet…unless you have some real proof? "
There's a fair amount of back and forth, for a while, with RosenMcStern getting increasingly indignant: "We are not law enforcers and it is not our business to do any investigation." "Please stop this now. Rpg.net is not a court."
It doesn't take too long before the apparently aptly named Outlaw Press changed to a non-infringing cover, without any explanation. Which proves RosenMcStern right:
"See? It was most likely a mistake.
Graphic designers often make proofs of the cover text with a draft of the cover, or a different picture if they do not have a draft. It happens oh-so-often that the final file submitted for printing or publication is one of these proofs. Luckily in this case it was just a web page, so the mistake was easy to correct.
Now, do everyone realize what sort of damage these eight pages of nothingness have done to Outlaw Press, or OneBookshelf? How many of the people who have read the accusations will read the explanation?"
And then things turn into a discussion about when it is or isn't appropriate to cry plagiarist. Then Kopfy enters the fray, arguing that Outlaw Press is a shady outfit, and that you can get better T&T stuff elsewhere. He then winds up tangling with RosenMcStern with sufficient vigor that RosenMcStern drops out of the conversation.
Which is a real pity, considering what comes next. On page 21, we get these post from John H.
Oh sweet irony.
Up thread I preached a moderate approach to such matters. This morning it came to my attention that one of my images was being used as the cover of an Outlaw Press product (Thanks to the person who passed that on, they know who they are). I sent an email to query where they got the right to use it - there is a possibility they licensed it, and I don't have a name that instantly connects to Outlaw Press.
However the product was just taken down from Drivethru. Hmmm. I await an explanation via email.
and:
Oh dear, on poking around further they've taken work I did for Games Workshop. Big mistake.
And then, my friends, we are off to the races. Rather than going through a full play-by-play, I'll give you the results of the thread, in convenient image heavy .pdf form: Outlaw Press Covers Comparison List. There are about 70 plagiarized covers, there. This is only the covers, and not all of the covers that have been spotted as stolen; I'll just go ahead and assume that the interior art, which would be harder to track down and match, is 100% legit.
Naturally, there's a lot of "but, it's important to remember, that despite the fact that I was wrong, I could very easily have been right, and boy, wouldn't have the people arguing with me looked stupid then!" including from RosenMcStern.
Things heat up a bit later when someone links to Shipman's address, which turns out to be . . his parent's house. (No, not linking that one, sorry.) That's also where the DNS to the currently defunct Outlaw Press website resolves to. Amusing as the fact that Outlaw Press is being run out of Shipman's mom's basement, posting his address does bring in a Devil's advocate. This provokes what this sort of thing usually provokes, but eventually the guy gives up. Heck, even RosenMcStern gives up on the "he might have been right" line of argument.
There are a few more amusing tidbits in that thread—one of the people claiming that they've been infringed is a guy on deviant art called Paul. As it turns out, it's concept art from Gladiator. And not original to Paul. There are also complaints about Shipman stealing and selling Gamma World (another early RPG) stuff, and a less than complimentary account of how he got the T&T license in the first place.
As the RPGnet forums close threads when they get to a thousand posts, that's more or less where this line of discussion ends.
But it's not the end of the story. I'm just going to move over to Vin's T&T Trollbridge, a lower traffic forum that's focused on Tunnels and Trolls. Some of the stuff here was copied over onto the RPGnet forum, but a thousand posts is too many posts for me.
The thread on the Trollbridge starts off following along with the RPGnet forum, but then this comes up:
something else interesting i stumbled across. go dig out your copy of dungeon magazine #9 (come on, you know you have it ;)) and read the text of 'the djinni's ring' solo by vince garcia. then get out 'the djinni's power' solo credited to a mr. james shipman sold at the OP site. let me know what you find. other than the superficial changes of place names to shipman's take on trollworld what do you notice?
Apparently, you notice that they are the exact same thing. There are scans, further along, but you have to sign up to the forum to be able to download them.
And then the conversation gaves a link to this.
To summarize that: A guy named Olivier Legrand puts together a classical mythology themed RPG. He puts it on the web, and says that there will not be a print version; he doesn't want it to be sold, and he doesn't have the legal right to sell a product with some of the art he used. But there is a print version, put out by Outlaw Press, and being sold for $30. How can this be?
Well, Legrand shows up, and explains how this can be. The letter he sent to Shipman starts:
Hello
I've just noticed that you are offering copies of the MAZES & MINOTAURS rpg for sale on your website. As the author and creator of the game, which is available 100% free on my website http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr in PDF format, I must inform you that you have absokutely NO RIGHT to sell such items.
The thread there is hilarious, in its own modest way: Despite the general sympathy expressed for Legrand, a poster named Kersus is having none of it.
There's even rules when it's free. I guess it isn't 'really' free.
Yeah yeah, making money off other people's work. Even when something is free it's all about the money.
Bootleg me.
How can something be free, if I can't sell it? Huh? Huh? Do you want to call the police, and have them raid garage sales? I am a wacky free spirit! There are a couple of others posting in much the same vein, which is too much for Legrand, who leaves.
I also like the people who suggest that it was some sort of mistake. I mean, Lord knows how many times I've accidentally downloaded a free .pdf, sent it along to lulu, and sold the resulting books for thirty bucks a pop. I mean, stuff like this can happen to anyone!
Similarly, you get this.
So I was checking email this past Sunday evening, and I saw that I had an email from Shippy at Outlaw Press. His email informed me that my random dungeon generator had been published in issue 28 of the Dungeoneer's Journal, and as such he was going to send me a free copy of that 'zine, and maybe some other stuff, too.
This was interesting to me because I had never submitted my generator to Shippy for publication, and thus his email kind of caught me totally out of left field.
You know, maybe it's me, but I'm starting to see a pattern here.
To continue: Shipman was, apparently, Selling T&T books he didn't have the legal right to sell
And then he shows up, and posts!
It is somewhat comical that people think Outlaw Press is motivated by GREED. I was publishing T&T for years when it was losing money. Now that it actually makes money, every penny it makes goes back into creating and publishing new T&T material. I don't publish T&T for the money, I never have. I have all the money I need. If I did I would have stopped long ago. Its a hobby of mine. It is something I love to do. If someone made me stop selling T&T, I would still publish T&T and give it away for FREE.
Those earlier editions mentioned (1st, 4th, M!M!) have been published by Outlaw Press since around 2000 to 2002. So I’m not sure where people get that those items suddenly appeared on my web site recently for the first time. Items do appear and disappear on my web site when they out of stock, but they always return. As for Rick not knowing about it, that would be wrong. I’ve sent him lots of items to sell, including copies of M!M!. He often sells OP T&T items at conventions.
As for other people publishing T&T, I think its great! The more the better I say.
Outlaw Press isn’t going away as long as I'm alive. Outlaw Press is still an ‘Official’ T&T publisher. No one has tried to change that, not Rick or Ken. Now I need to go work on a couple new T&T items soon to be released.
Sadly, he doesn't really continue the discussion, particularly those parts of the discussion where people point out that his license has been pulled.
He does, however, contribute this: "I've also heard that Outlaw Press guy slaps old people around, beats small innocent children and recently stole lunch money from a Nun. Its just despicable I say!"
While I'm willing to believe that he slaps old people around, and so on, I'd be more interested in a reply to this
Nov 24, 2009, 9:30am, shipy wrote:
I have all the money I need.
That's great James. Could you arrange with me to pay the $60 license fee for my cover you've been using on Troll's Blood & Old Delvers? Alternatively could you mail me the address of the art broker you say you bought it from, and we can sort all this out?
You have my email address.
Thanks!
Then someone notices that on the Amazon.com pages for various Outlaw Press titles, the authors listed aren't the actual authors, but are, for some reason, James Shipman.
Index, he copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory!
There's more, much on a fan forum called trollhalla, but there are some interfaces up with which I will not put. But while there is more, I think this is more or less enough.
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