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	thoms 2010-01-16 06:52 pm UTC (link)
	I know what you mean. I want to have some measure of sympathy for her over the thing with her mother. I work with people in her mother's situation every day, it IS hard. But I just... gnaahr. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

lady_ganesh
2010-01-16 06:57 pm UTC (link)

Yeah. I mean, yes, she was screwed over, yes, she's having a bad time, yes, Andy/Than/whatever is an asshole. But it's a pronoun. Period. There is no limited supply of pronouns in the world. You will not run out. When you are told, time and again, you are hurting people because you will not use a pronoun and still do not care? You are an asshole, and you knock away a little bit more of my sympathy every time you do it.

God knows I have failed in my time. I have cissplained, I have mansplained, I have ablesplained. But I hope I always have and will continue to shut up at least and try to change my behavior at best when people tell me I'm hurting them.

Er. There seems to be a soapbox here. I'll just be stepping off it, then.

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	thoms 2010-01-16 07:14 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, you can stay, we can use it to eat popcorn on while we watch all of this unfold and watch the bookies take bets for Andy's next fandom. And I just agree with everything you said. Couldn't have put it better. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	lady_ganesh 2010-01-16 08:59 pm UTC (link)
	There we go. I like cheese on mine. Aw, thanks. (Reply to this)(Parent)

darkling
2010-01-16 08:51 pm UTC (link)

This. If you think that anyone who dares to inform you that you're misinterpreting something or being really offensive is too sensitive etc, they're *not* the ones with the problem. You are. And you need to fix it. Every time I see her use that pronoun (especially when written as 'She'), a chunk of my sympathy dies a death.

*Is especially soapboxy about this, as has to deal with people -directly or indirectly, through friends who have been subject to sexism, ableism and everything you could imagine - who pull this shit far too often. And now I'm going to wipe away the splooge and get back to the wank.

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	lady_ganesh 2010-01-16 08:59 pm UTC (link)
	::hugs:: Thanks. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	finchbird 2010-01-16 09:32 pm UTC (link)
	So much this. Thank you. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	lady_ganesh 2010-01-17 03:20 am UTC (link)
	You're welcome, but seriously this feels like, you know. SO COMPLETELY OBVIOUS that it makes me sad. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Do ya think teaqueenie 2010-01-16 11:37 pm UTC (link)
	Do you think VB was female when Turi knew him/was scammed and that explains it? I do think Turi's motivation is to hurt VB and nothing else matters. Me personally, I'm glad refer to VB as a him because it keeps him away from my gender. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Do ya think jupiterpluvius 2010-01-16 11:53 pm UTC (link)
	The thing is that Amy Player at one time self-presented as female. Using a female pronoun for something Amy Player did in the past, when Amy Player was self-presenting as Amy Player, might be understandable. But saying "Andrew Blake, she is doing this" is just arrant transfail. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Do ya think lady_ganesh 2010-01-17 03:39 am UTC (link)
	This. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Do ya think

sorchar
2010-01-17 05:48 am UTC (link)

He was. But he was female when most of us first heard of him, and most of us have made the switch to male pronouns just fine. I was holding out because I didn't know whether he was honestly trans or it was just part of another con - then I discovered that it didn't matter to the other trans folks around here, that it was offending them for people to still refer to Andy as "she" regardless of his motivations. So I switched.

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Re: Do ya think -

cmdr_zoom, 2010-01-17 07:19 am UTC

Re: Do ya think -

feenix, 2010-01-17 07:43 am UTC

Re: Do ya think -

ari_o, 2010-01-17 08:08 am UTC

	Re: Do ya think sandglass 2010-01-17 06:23 am UTC (link)
	Turi knows that VB wants to be called a him, and (AFAIK) agreed to call him by the proper pronoun, then went back on it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Do ya think -

ari_o, 2010-01-17 08:05 am UTC

Re: Do ya think -

oulangi, 2010-01-17 08:23 am UTC

Re: Do ya think -

ari_o, 2010-01-17 08:28 am UTC

Re: Do ya think -

dico, 2010-01-17 04:07 pm UTC

Re: Do ya think -

ari_o, 2010-01-18 12:23 am UTC

Re: Do ya think -

dico, 2010-01-18 12:25 am UTC

Re: Do ya think -

derryderrydown, 2010-01-18 02:59 pm UTC

	Re: Do ya think derryderrydown 2010-01-18 02:59 pm UTC (link)
	My mind-reading hat tells me that Turi's doing it to hurt AB and either isn't aware or doesn't care that she's hurting every other trans person as a result. I'm hoping the former but strongly suspect the latter. (It's hard being an optimistic cynic, you know. I live in hope that the world isn't as bad as I know it is.) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Do ya think - redwarrior, 2010-01-18 08:31 pm UTC

Re: Do ya think -

ari_o, 2010-01-19 02:09 am UTC

tl;dr

feenix
2010-01-17 12:57 am UTC (link)

I'm going to say something horribly unpopular and likely to get me dogpiled. But I don't care.

I don't think the transfail is the reason to lack sympathy in Turi.

Yeah, I know, it's not appropriate to refer to Andy as "she" (quotes not included), or "he" (quotes included). And I know it irks F_W a lot. But I think raging at the transfail is missing the forest for the trees.

No, see, the reason I began to think Turimel was possibly the only person on Earth wankier than Andy is because she just won't let it go. At this point, she blows everything involving Andy/thanfiction/VB/Amy/however you like to refer to him out of proportion. Everything he does is a major wank, and cause for her to self-aggrandize herself.

So, for me, it's not about the pronoun, though that's part of it. My view from 30,000 feet: She crazy. Even if she did get scammed out of 10 grand back in 2003 or whenever it was.

As for the entire f_w transfail rage, especially at Turi? It just seems like f_w's become, "Okay, she's fine for being crazy and obsessive about this for seven years on the internet and martyring herself every chance she gets. But HEAVEN FORFEND she refers to a transgender person as "she" when he really identifies as "he," even if he is the person that screwed her! That's JUST NOT RIGHT." And - like I said - while she is wanky for the transfail, I think she's more wanky for not giving it a rest and - you know - taking whatever legal ramifications are available to her.

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Re: tl;dr

darkling
2010-01-17 01:23 am UTC (link)

No dogpiling here (sorry), because well yes, they're not entirely unconnected. Obviously everyone has latched onto the transfail because, well, its right *there*, and its a hot button topic. Knowing someone currently transitioning is not helping me here. I think for me the blatant transfail - along with other charmless comments - is indicative of the bigger wanky picture, in terms of bitterness and general unpleasant crazy, and is a consistent reminder.

...And I'd said that I'd stop splooging. Silly me *inserts head in cone* So, what happens to the wee sparrow now? Further custody battles? Undead shaman babysitters?

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Re: tl;dr

greenling
2010-01-17 02:05 am UTC (link)

As for the entire f_w transfail rage, especially at Turi? It just seems like f_w's become, (etc.)

Well, yes; and if it were possible to be just this idiot I'm sure someone could effectively argue that they've gone batshit enough that pronouns are optional, go ahead and call them her or it or princess-snowflake if that floats your boat.

But I think that continuing to harm other people, completely unrelated people, because of the off chance this might annoy the dick who ripped you off, is both fail and ridiculous. Even in its tiny-little-symptom way, that is what this sort of thing does, creating hoops people have to jump through to get their identity recognized, the idea that using one's right name is a privilege accorded from on high, and subtly enforcing the happy little fucked up gender roles we all have to deal with by implying there's a registrar you have to go through.

Though you're probably aware of that, you have a point that the reaction is simplified to the point of being strange (though I'm not sure what the alternative would be), and I very much agree with you that Turimel seems to be hanging disturbing amounts of her life on this event for whatever reason.

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Re: tl;dr

ekaterinv
2010-01-17 03:25 am UTC (link)

But I think that continuing to harm other people, completely unrelated people, because of the off chance this might annoy the dick who ripped you off, is both fail and ridiculous.

I still have some sympathy for Turimel, though I think she's so wrong. I think she's so angry she can't see that she's hurting others, and not hurting thanfiction at all, with this. I can understand why Turimel thinks her position is logical: she thinks thanfiction's gender identity is an integral part of the con, so she's not going to buy into it. When people tell her, "it doesn't matter about thanfiction, you're hurting innocent transgendered people with this," she comes back with, "but Amy's not transgendered, so why do are you sticking up for HER, raaar," completely missing the point that no one cares about thanfiction, they care about the other people. It's like how I might think a woman is a terrible person deserving of no sympathy, but that doesn't mean I'm okay with anyone calling her a slut.

And also why the hell does Turimel capitalize "She" so often? I think that's giving thanfiction a lot more power than calling him "he" would.

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Re: tl;dr -

ekaterinv, 2010-01-17 11:16 am UTC

	Re: tl;dr ari_o 2010-01-17 02:07 am UTC (link)
	I think there are a lot of opinions around here on Turi, and I have seen a lot of people say exactly what you're saying now. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: tl;dr

juliansinger
2010-01-17 02:50 am UTC (link)

Mostly, I have found, in the past month or so of VB wank, that Turi a) is a boring writer, b) is boringly obsessed by VB, c) wanks boringly and at length, d) is boring in her self-aggrandizement, e) is kind of dense and bizarrely privileged (and yet does it boringly) and f) is offensive in irritating ways.

So I agree with you, but on the other hand, there's not much one can do with Turimel, because yes, She crazy, but also, She boring.

For awhile, the transfail was at least minorly interresting because I thought she might want to, well, stop failing, but that was before I realized she'd been having this same song and dance for /at least/ three years (I haven't read some of the stuff from earlier than that), and she keeps going, "Oh, you mean...?" and /almost/ changing, and then she reverts again.

I may have to create a Turi Template soon.

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Re: tl;dr

lady_ganesh
2010-01-17 03:53 am UTC (link)

I don't think she's 'fine' for being crazy and obsessive. Without the transfail, though, she'd be hurting one person, maybe two: herself and VB. I mean, that last blog entry? That's pathetic. I'd probably feel sorry for her because she let this one bad thing that happened to her take up so much of her time, energy, and efforts. I'd probably figure she and VB deserve each other.

With the transfail, though, she becomes someone who's putting her anger and hurt over everything else. I don't care how crazy you are, when you start hurting other people and don't care, that's when I get soapboxy.

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phosfate
2010-01-17 04:32 am UTC (link)

You're quite right; Turimel's made of fail for a lot of reasons. Her attempts to paint every single thing that VB does as nefarious criminal activity, for example. "Oh my God, that drawing is clearly based on a photograph!" Oh, horrors.

If the whole BOE thing had worked out (and I sincerely wish it had, because it was a good idea), she would today be painting herself as the woman who saved BOE with her generosity.

The problem with her transfail is that it's really, really, really goddamned irritating. It's deliberate. It hurts people who aren't involved, or interested. And it's also one of the few things about this whole mess that, at least here, we can try to stop other people from doing. (One wonders if, had VB been born African-American, Turimel would continue to refer to her as "that boy" and then explain that it's just because VB looks so gosh-darn young.)

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	ari_o 2010-01-17 07:48 am UTC (link)
	I've noticed that Turi doesn't seem to mind the attention at all and I think she enjoys all the pats on the back and the feeling that she has personally exposed a terrible injustice. But the world is brim full of injustice and in the grand scheme Andrew is just a zit on a minor demon's ass and not Satan incarnate. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Because I am NOT RESPONDING to all of you personally.

feenix
2010-01-17 06:13 am UTC (link)

No offense. I'd probably be repeating myself if I did.

But anyway, you guys do bring up an interesting point in that it might well harm other people. I'll admit - I'm probably coming from a privileged position in that I have a penis and I have never (in my 25 years, 8 months, and 16 days on this rock) thought that I should have a vagina instead, so it takes me a while to understand the entire transgendered thing. (The boy analogy was a nice way to put it.)

Even outside of that, though,

greenling articulated kind of what I wanted to say:

turimel is a crazy attention seeker who has decided to cash in on the fact that she got swindled by a rare lesbian paladin* seven years ago for e-fame, and while I feel bad for her for the initial swindle and I don't think she deserved it, she wore out any goodwill from me long, long ago, and I find the fact that she's gleefully involving herself in this because she MUST STICK IT TO ANDY GODDAMMIT rather reprehensible.

The transfail was simply the icing on the giant, shit-flavored cupcake that is the Turimel/Victoria Bitter saga.** And yeah, it does irk me that people are like, "Well, I'd feel bad for her if it wasn't for the goddamn pronouns," because even if she referred to thanfiction properly she'd still be a gigantic wanker. (And I am not qualifying that, for once. I know it, you know it, we all know it.)

*VB's words, not mine. Though that was when he was still...err...identifying as "she." How do you properly refer to that, anyway?
**Then again, devil's advocate - this is the same man who insisted he was physically turning into Elijah Wood, if I recall correctly. Granted, there is substantial proof that thanfiction is for real (dating back to 2007), but I can see why Turimel would doubt. Still doesn't mean she's right, though.

And with that, I'm probably done with turning f_w into ufb. Because it gets turned into ufb far too often.

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Re: tl;dr

cesare
2010-01-18 11:19 am UTC (link)

Everything you're saying about Turimel has come and gone around in previous wanks, as I learned anew when I recently updated the entry on Turimel in the Fandom wank wiki. People have been mocking Turimel for being obsessive for literally years.

The transfail is harped on now because it's a new permutation of the same behavior, where she's much more concerned with possibly getting in a dig on VB, who may or may not be bothered, than she is about the other people who tell her directly that she is upsetting them.

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