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insignificant other ([info]snacky) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2010-05-03 10:09:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:author entitlement, authors, creator wank, doesn't mean what you think it means, fanfic, suck it up and deal, writers are often pompous douches, your kink is not okay

Diana Gabaldon, author of the wildly popular Outlander series, has an opinion on fan fiction: I think it’s immoral, I _know_ it’s illegal, and it makes me want to barf whenever I’ve inadvertently encountered some of it involving my characters.

Highlights include:


  • Writing fanfic is just like breaking into someone's house.
  • Fanfic is WAY WAY WAY TOO PORNY omg ick people have sexual fantasies!*
  • What to do about an auction offering fanfic to raise money for a cancer patient? She doesn't want to "seem heartless"! So she seeks advice in the comments. Which are mostly full of "Fanfic? I have never heard of such a despicable load of garbage! Also, CRUSH THAT CANCER PATIENT!"



ETA: Unpublished author Eddie Louise (who cannot write the word "shit" and seems to fail spectacularly at reading comprehension) offers fanfic writers A CHALLENGE! Accept it if you dare, sniveling pedo thieves!

ETA 2: Previously, Ms Gabaldon has said fanfic is like selling your children into white slavery. Well. Now. I don't even know what to do with that.

ETA 3: Smart Bitches, Trashy Books has some discussion on the topic.

ETA 4: And bookshop on LJ/DW has a rebuttal.

ETA 5: See what happens when I leave the sweet embrace of the internet for a few hours? Ms. Gabaldon updates her blog!

ETA 6: Evidently Ms. Gabaldon deleted all evidence of her hissyfit, but some wankas have screencaps in this thread.

ETA 7: [info]kate_nepevu has screencaps and the text of Gabaldon's posts here. And via [info]alchemynerd, more screencaps available here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/tiz4vp
http://www.sendspace.com/file/ibidpj
http://www.sendspace.com/file/r6zik6
http://www.sendspace.com/file/hlknqo
http://www.sendspace.com/file/d9alsh

Thanks for all the links! :)




MOD REMINDER: Remember, my little wankas, we DO NOT troll the wank. Nor do we write fanfic after the author has specifically requested people not and post it in the comments here, no matter how tempting it may be. Carry on. oh god my inbox ow ow



*Just as a point of interest, I was a bookseller for 12 years, and had several customers tell me about the sex scenes in her books. Some were pro ("My friend told me to read these books for the sex scenes, and she was totally right, they are so hot, this is best thing to happen to my sex life in years!") and some were con ("What is up with all the sex all the time? Where's the story?"), but one thing you can't say about her books is that they're sexual-fantasy free. :D


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]herongale
2010-05-03 05:22 pm UTC (link)
The more and more authors I see lining up on the anti-fanfiction side of the equation, the more convinced I am that their dislike is founded in a basic level of insecurity about their own talents. Not necessarily lack of skill... I believe GRRM is anti-fanfic, too, and he's a pretty damn good writer. But insecurity needs no rationale... and no matter how good of a writer you are, there are always going to be writers who outshine you.

At the very least, there are always going to be writers you think outshine you.

And I suspect that for a lot of these writers who are anti-fanfic, the thing they hate the most is the idea that the existence of copious fanfic for their stories indicates very clearly that they themselves are genre writers. Again, nothing wrong with that, but you'll note that fanfic in regards to classic literature usually does not exist in nearly the same quantity as fanfic for sci-fi, fantasy, or romance titles. So for any writer who has pretensions of grandeur about her own fic, the fact that people are porning it can probably be pretty damn demoralizing. People are always going to want to write more porn about the Lestats and Jamie Frasers than they will for the Rabbit Angstroms and the Jay Gatsbys of classic lit.

These are just my speculations, but I've thought about this a lot. YMMV.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]quantumreality
2010-05-03 05:25 pm UTC (link)
You have a very good point. Whatever happened to just saying, "for legal reasons I cannot read or review fan fiction and I cannot protect you from the legal consequences of writing it"?

That's pretty much a good warning shot across the bow of anyone who starts trying to mix money and fanfic, IMV.

The pearl-clutching/vapors metaphor is an apt description for the caring way too much about fanfic contingent among authors.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]herongale
2010-05-03 05:54 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. It's so easy for pro writers to have some legal boilerplate language on their official websites. And I think that once a writer goes down the road of prosecuting fanfic writers, they need to keep doing so, because otherwise any fanfic that they overlook will be implicitly condoned.

Why would writers want to waste their life dealing with that nonsense? It's practically self-sabotage!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


ealusaid
2010-05-04 01:31 am UTC (link)
That's one of my favourite authors' lines, too.

Even though I brought a fanzine for hir fandom to a convention zie also attended and gave away copies for free, and I totally saw hir steal a copy.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lady_ganesh
2010-05-03 05:26 pm UTC (link)
I kind of wonder that too. Especially since some of the most critically praised genre writers are pro-fanfic.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]marmaladecat
2010-05-03 08:10 pm UTC (link)
May I ask which ones, because I see lists of those who are anti-, but can't find one for those that are pro-? (And I'm more than sure they're out there.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]lady_ganesh
2010-05-03 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Pro- may not be the right word, but certainly not anti:

Jim Butcher's named in the wank as basically letting people run free with his stuff.
IIRC, Neil Gaiman is okay with it, though I can't remember any statements.
Naomi Novik is on the board of the Organization for Transformative Works, and IIRC there are a few other authors on the board.
Joss Whedon is not a novelist but is vocally pro-fanfic.

I suspect the vast majority of authors don't care that much, or don't feel strongly enough about it to voice a public opinion and risk alienating potential readers/colleagues on both sides.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]zing_och, 2010-05-03 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zing_och, 2010-05-03 08:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]asparagirl, 2010-05-03 09:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sleepyjean, 2010-05-04 02:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-03 09:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]darkrose, 2010-05-04 04:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-04 04:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vorpal_blade, 2010-05-04 04:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaresu, 2010-05-04 12:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rani, 2010-05-04 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaresu, 2010-05-04 02:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rani, 2010-05-04 02:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beckyh2112, 2010-05-04 02:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]disdainful_soul, 2010-05-04 04:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shark, 2010-05-04 06:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]magic_at_mungos, 2010-05-04 09:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2010-05-04 06:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]spawn_of_kong, 2010-05-04 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]visp, 2010-05-05 09:46 am UTC
(no subject) - winterfox, 2010-05-04 07:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-04 08:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - winterfox, 2010-05-04 08:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-04 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - winterfox, 2010-05-04 08:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]librarianmouse, 2010-05-05 07:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyjax, 2010-05-05 07:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]funwithrage, 2010-05-06 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]derryderrydown, 2010-05-09 02:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-09 02:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]derryderrydown, 2010-05-09 02:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-09 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]platedlizard, 2010-05-09 08:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]firebird308, 2010-05-03 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ceteramisto, 2010-05-04 06:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]silmaril, 2010-05-03 11:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eleutheria, 2010-05-03 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shinysandals, 2010-05-04 12:41 am UTC
TV, rather than books. - [info]selene_avis, 2010-05-04 03:31 am UTC
Re: TV, rather than books. - [info]fools_game, 2010-05-04 02:03 pm UTC
Re: TV, rather than books. - [info]sistercoyote, 2010-05-04 09:20 pm UTC
Re: TV, rather than books. - [info]were_lemur, 2010-05-06 01:25 am UTC
Re: TV, rather than books. - [info]dragonfangirl, 2010-05-06 08:32 pm UTC
Re: TV, rather than books. - [info]were_lemur, 2010-05-08 02:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alana, 2010-05-04 06:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2010-05-04 02:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alana, 2010-05-04 03:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2010-05-04 03:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilitu93, 2010-05-04 04:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]trialia, 2010-05-08 01:58 pm UTC

[info]pariforma
2010-05-03 05:28 pm UTC (link)
I think you're right. I know there have been situations where fan writers' work has negatively affected the original author's creative freedom and/or profit (in cases like the fan author alleging "I had that idea first and you stole it from me!"), but I think that happens less and less. Harry Potter fanfic obviously didn't lessen sales of the book. People are not, I think, reading Dr. Who fanfic but not watching the show. Writers have less and less to fear financially from derivative fan works.

I also think there's a fallacy with Gabaldon and a lot of other authors that interest in her characters = interest in her and her private life. Actually, it doesn't. Nobody is writing porn about her and her husband. If she identifies with her characters that strongly... maybe she'd better take a little vacation and leave the laptop at home.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]quantumreality
2010-05-03 05:39 pm UTC (link)
(in cases like the fan author alleging "I had that idea first and you stole it from me!")


You know, when I see things like that my first instinct is to think, "what an utter asshat that fanfic author is", 'cause wankery like that is usually what makes an author just throw up their hands and give up. I remember one reported case where it ALMOST got amicably settled and then the fanfic author buggered up the deal by pushing for more money - result? No more books, EVAR.

Apparently, this is why a lot of authors these days explicitly disavow fanfic - they're not keen on jumping into the quagmire. I can also see why some authors would overreact and insist that fanfic is bad for... well (insert reason here).

Eh it's early in the morning and I need to do other things now :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pariforma, 2010-05-03 05:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]talec, 2010-05-04 08:04 am UTC

[info]herongale
2010-05-03 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Hell, I think that Harry Potter fanfic actually helped contribute to the popularity of that series. People who write fanfic tend to be uber fans. Henry Jenkins actually discusses this in his book "Convergence Culture," and points out that the truly savvy media production companies, writers, and artists understand that invested fans help push the franchise, and create a market for ancillary items that serious fans will want to buy.

A writer doesn't even need to be that good to understand that indulgence towards fans can be financially rewarding. Look at all the Twilight merch that's out there. You can't tell me that most people buying it are simply consuming the books and movies without interacting with them. Fanfic equates to emotional investment on the part of fans. I can't understand why any writer would seriously want to suppress that. And I agree: there are instances where writers have been burned by malignant fans, but those situations don't happen very often, and fans who try to do that shit end up being seriously shunned by the fandom they wish to court.

These days, everyone should be aware of the story of Harry Potter fandom... and should understand that a robust, active fandom is actually the best DEFENSE of the author's interests, because fans will always want to protect their favourites.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2010-05-03 07:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-03 09:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]artimusdin, 2010-05-03 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-03 09:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]artimusdin, 2010-05-03 11:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2010-05-04 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]artimusdin, 2010-05-04 12:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trialia, 2010-05-08 02:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]artimusdin, 2010-05-08 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]trialia, 2010-05-08 08:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]artimusdin, 2010-05-08 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]trialia, 2010-05-08 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]artimusdin, 2010-05-08 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amaresu, 2010-05-04 12:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vorpal_blade, 2010-05-04 04:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quantumreality, 2010-05-04 05:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mydarkstar, 2010-05-04 09:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-05-04 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_labrat_army, 2010-05-05 06:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-05-03 09:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2010-05-03 09:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-05-04 02:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-05-03 10:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bacon_lover, 2010-05-03 07:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tachikoma01, 2010-05-04 05:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mighty_mouse, 2010-05-04 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tachikoma01, 2010-05-05 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]goddessleila, 2010-05-04 07:14 pm UTC

[info]catmoran
2010-05-03 09:55 pm UTC (link)
People are not, I think, reading Dr. Who fanfic but not watching the show.

I've honestly lost track of the number of shows/movies/books I've watched/read because some fanfic caught my eye, and I wanted to know more about the characters and canon storyline.

But it's got to be in the dozens, at least.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dark_puck, 2010-05-04 12:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rani, 2010-05-04 01:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]puipui, 2010-05-04 05:47 am UTC
(no subject) - janegray, 2010-05-04 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dark_puck, 2010-05-04 10:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - janegray, 2010-05-04 11:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dark_puck, 2010-05-05 12:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]drakyndra, 2010-05-05 02:28 pm UTC

[info]snacky
2010-05-03 06:11 pm UTC (link)
She did a signing at the bookstore I used to work at, and I still remember that she was quite pleased that we did not put her books in the genre sections. Evidently, her books get shelved with romance or sci-fi/fantasy a lot, and she made a point of saying how glad she was seeing her books in the literature section.

Of course, V.C. Andrews was in the same section, so it's not really an indication of quality.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]melkahb
2010-05-03 06:47 pm UTC (link)
That's actually a perception and marketing thing. My understanding is that the first book was purchased as a Romance. She protested ("it's a time-travel story") until the publisher showed her the extra zeros on the advance check for a Romance compared to a Sci-Fi/Fantasy book.

Whether the story's true or not, the economics remains accurate. In many ways, current publishing genres exist as marketing and sales tools, and Romance outsells Fantasy/Sci-Fi by a WIDE margin. Likewise, shelving a book in Literature increases its (and, by extension, its author's) credibility among certain readers, particularly those who create awards lists, and can alter sales figures. I've seen Neal Stevenson shelved under Literature, and there's no other reason for that than P&L.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snacky, 2010-05-03 08:46 pm UTC

[info]lindentreeisle
2010-05-04 01:12 am UTC (link)
Of course, V.C. Andrews was in the same section, so it's not really an indication of quality.

Lol forever.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]khym_chanur
2010-05-03 06:14 pm UTC (link)
Hrm. Personally, I think that it's a combination of two things:

1) "I sweat and cry and bleed for my Art, and then these mere dilettantes come along and dare to call themselves writers? And what's more, they do so on the back of my hard labor?"

2) From their point of view, they're like a composer who wrote a violin solo, and then a complete newbie violinist who sounds absolutely horrible records a performance, posts it on the Internet, and the ear-gouging performance becomes popular, and just the thought of this happening is like mental nails-on-a-blackboard to the composer.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]tofuknight
2010-05-03 10:31 pm UTC (link)
And yet, still makes the author a pearl-clutching asshat.

:D

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]beccafran
2010-05-04 01:36 am UTC (link)
Yeah, that Mozart guy has really suffered a lot from all those hacks who try to play his works and aren't as good. Anyone who REALLY respected Mozart would never play his music!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]misachan
2010-05-03 09:49 pm UTC (link)
IIRC, GRRM is a "play in my universe but leave my characters to me, please" author, as is Jacqueline Carey. There's a licensed ASOIAF RPG that he promotes, after all.

Now GRRM doesn't really get why someone would want to write fanfic instead of original stuff, it's true, but he's nowhere near Anne Rice about it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kaen
2010-05-04 03:37 am UTC (link)
Here's his view on fanfiction.

Which made me twitch a bit when he wrote crossover fic for the Suvudu cage matches.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - winterfox, 2010-05-04 07:56 pm UTC

[info]thebratqueen
2010-05-03 10:20 pm UTC (link)
Well considering that Anne Rice is the patron saint of Authors Against Fanfic... QED.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]msilverstar
2010-05-04 12:04 am UTC (link)
Yeah, insecurity in general, genre insecurities, and pretensions of grandeur, I think you have it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]negativecosine
2010-05-04 12:10 am UTC (link)
Jay Gatsby = fanfic of Trimalchio.

That is all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cesare
2010-05-05 02:26 am UTC (link)
I think both your points here are good ones. The case of Anne Rice is really instructive here, imo. She was okay with fan fiction in the '90s and iirc either her webmaster or her publisher even linked to some fanfic forums from one of her official sites.

Then as her books got hackier and her critical reputation frittered away to nothing, she became hostile to fanfic. Her lawyers sent out C&Ds and Rice publicly stated that fanfic pained her and she absolutely forbade it.

At around the same time, she stopped letting her publisher edit her books, leading to some memorable slips, like a minor character in one book changing names halfway through the story, or my favorite, a typo on the cover of one of her books: Blood and Gold, A Noval.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cesare
2010-05-05 02:30 am UTC (link)
Oh, and also, to your second point about genre... after writing Memnoch the Devil, Rice started comparing her work to Milton and Dickens. I'm sure her inflated self-regard also contributed to her change of heart. She seemed to decide that her works aren't mere supernatural romances, and so ought to be immune from fanfic.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]dragonfangirl
2010-05-06 08:33 pm UTC (link)
And that actually went to print?! Ok, LOL.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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