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Laurie ([info]knitmeapony) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2010-05-14 09:22:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:author entitlement, authors, can't escape the screencaps

Second verse, same as the first: Katherine Kerr hates your fanfic.
Katherine Kerr, editor of Weird Tales of Shakespeare and author of Celtic myth and Dungeons and Dragons 'inspired' novels decides to create another derivative work: her thoughts on yaoi.

A number of people on LJ have been expressing their views on fanfic, so I thought I'd add mine. I despise it.

http://aberwyn.livejournal.com/181755.html Deleted!

Caps of first post:
via alchemynerd on LJ: http://www.sendspace.com/file/7ovake
via alchemynerd on LJ: http://www.sendspace.com/file/nsjfzd
Perhaps you'd prefer PDF: http://knitmeapony.com/fw/kerr_kerfuffle_page1.pdf
Or HTML, via maneman on LJ: knitmeapony.com/fw/katherine_kerr_career_suicide.html


And this includes the professional transformative works:

If someone can think of no better idea than to take a classic kid's book series and try to wring a few more bucks out of it, like the whole 'Wicked' series, then they should get a real job.


Comment #2 is fellow author Jim Hines getting a bit snarky with the idea. She backpedals mightily in the face of a professional author.

There are disappointed fans! She replies to her own post rather than editing it!

Not to mention mocking, accusations of trolling, and weird discussions of how fanfic is like embroidery or other crafting.

First post deleted, with explanation: Because people got "offensive": http://aberwyn.livejournal.com/182244.html Also deleted, cap of this, courtesy of [info]zulu http://tinypic.com/r/akzz1d/5

Then there was a third post, which I missed entirely, dubiously titled "what's wrong with talking about quality?" Cap, courtesy of [info]woodenleg http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5620/swrongwithtalkingaboutq.png


And when the second and third posts were deleted, a martyrish post went up here: http://aberwyn.livejournal.com/182619.html

Lordy, yet another post, preserved below. Edit: Post deleted, but thankfully preserved.

And one (final?) post, this time with comments turned off:

Summing up
1. 3 or 4 of the posts in the mobbing stage were interesting and intelligent; they made a nicely reasoned defence of fanfic. Good for you! You might have changed my mind if it weren't for the others.

2. The rest of the 200 or so posts actually proved my points about poor writing skills, lack of cultural knowledge, and lack of imagination, since they repeated each other's thoughts in varying degrees of inarticulate language. One person, in a post I screened by disallowed, even used a toilet reference that was supposed to embarrass me. He also seemed to think I'm man, oddly enough.

3. A sloppy syllogism for those who didn't get the B'rer Rabbit point:
A. I dislike fanfic and don't want anyone writing it about my work.
B. If you don't read my work, you can't write about it.
C. Therefore threatening to ignore my work does not injure me in any way. Rather, I'm relieved that you won't.

4. The mobbing was not merely rude to me. We can agree on the point that the flip tone of my original post deserved the response it got. However, the mobbing was rude to all the regular readers of this space. It bored them, it cut off their right of discussion, and I suspect it convinced some of them that my original post's opinion of fanfic writers was in the main correct.


Personally, I think this fanfic of the Diana Gabaldon kerfuffle has a paucity of imagination. And relatively dull.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]mariem_1
2010-05-14 06:19 pm UTC (link)
George R.R. Martin fans wank about discuss fanfic on ASOIAF forum:

Blaine23

Why is the argument always "Why Fanfic should not be allowed?" Clearly, the correct argument is "Why on Earth does anyone want fanfic encouraged?"

Shryke

Thankfully not many people do. It's a small but vocal little community.

Like Furries.

fall787

I am not sure why someone will bother argue the copyright part, which is the least important/necessary part of GRRM's argument.

His main (and in my mind only) point, is he doesn't want anyone touching his characters. They are his characters, all bullshit arguments of "oh they are really everyone's characters, you just be happy that you are allowed to call your story about them canon" aside, it's as simple as that. He cannot and will not enforce this, but he makes it known to everyone so everyone who considers doing GRRM fanfic must face a moral of choice of respecting or disrespecting the author's wishes.

Now some authors may have whatever attitude with fanfic, and that's fine. But in my mind that's a huge indicator of their work's quality. Yes, as you might know I'm a hater.

alguien

I think there is a fundamental difference between depicting a fictional character in pictoral form and writing fan fiction, which is essentially controlling their actions. Its definitely not apples to apples.

One is are merely interpreting their physical appearance.

The other is like mind control or something. Like you're stealing. It just feels... wrong to me, somehow.

But on the other hand, I enjoyed Suvudu, so what do I know?

And I also quite enjoyed Neil Gaiman's "The Problem of Susan", so maybe I'm just a hypocrite.

fall787

I just have to say I am amazed at the patience of some of the posters. And I applaud them for trying to make some sense to the opposing arguments even if those are arguments are going cirles over and over and over again. I think alot of has to do with the all too common philosophy of self entitlement these days...
"I don't want you to..."
"BUT WHHYYYYY?"
"Because I said I don't want you to."
"BUT WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY????"

I realize everyone is free to do what they like with their time. Some "artists" like to make sculptures out of feces. Others like to write "fan fiction" (I mean no offence to the fece-scultors by this comparison, honestly!). Ultimately, most non-criminal activities are split by your own morals. GRRM explained why he believes fan fiction is not moral, if legal. GRRM is a human. This is his opinion. He is not a law enforcing agency. Just a human. With an opinion. That may be right or wrong. But it is his. It's up to you to respect or disrespect it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]northen_light36
2010-05-14 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Well that's a charming lot. Guess GRRM will be glad of the change from their usual bitching about his slowness though.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]limyaael
2010-05-14 06:53 pm UTC (link)
On that forum, I don't think you're allowed to discuss his slowness. But it might be a change from their ass-licking.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ayezur
2010-05-14 06:30 pm UTC (link)
If fanfic writers are like feces-sculptors, doesn't that mean the source materials fanfic writers use are like feces?

I don't think he thought that comparison through.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]librarianmouse
2010-05-15 07:49 am UTC (link)
We're just making something pretty out of that horrible piece of crap they sold us, okay?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cat_mcdougall
2010-05-14 06:33 pm UTC (link)
"small"?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]tofuknight
2010-05-14 06:37 pm UTC (link)
And I also quite enjoyed Neil Gaiman's "The Problem of Susan", so maybe I'm just a hypocrite.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! A fresh poo-sculpture for you, my dear sir/madam/whatever!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


tetradecimal
2010-05-14 06:39 pm UTC (link)
The other is like mind control or something. Like you're stealing. It just feels... wrong to me, somehow.

IT'S LIKE YOU'RE VIOLATING THEM WITH YOUR MIND

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]barankhy
2010-05-14 10:31 pm UTC (link)
IT'S LIKE YOU'RE WRITING PORN ABOUT MY HUSBAND... after I wrote porn about my husband... and published it for all to read... I'll come in again.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kantayra
2010-05-15 03:14 am UTC (link)
Is this referring to LKH? It sounds like something she'd do, in any case...

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - ariadne484, 2010-05-15 04:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2010-05-15 10:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jyuu, 2010-05-15 12:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2010-05-15 12:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jyuu, 2010-05-15 12:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2010-05-16 04:33 am UTC

[info]adevyish
2010-05-15 07:50 am UTC (link)
In Canada, fictional persons are legally real persons, so yes!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]w00b
2010-05-29 02:59 am UTC (link)
Do they get to vote?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]singe
2010-05-14 06:59 pm UTC (link)
Now some authors may have whatever attitude with fanfic, and that's fine. But in my mind that's a huge indicator of their work's quality.

Which authors? Give examples as I'd like to do a compare and contrast myself.




Seriously, I would! Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]becktionary
2010-05-14 07:13 pm UTC (link)
In the Naomi Novik v. GRRM battle, Novik's writing comes out on top pretty handily, imo.

And here's a list of various authors' stances on the subject.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]issendai
2010-05-14 07:30 pm UTC (link)
Neil Gaiman, Lois McMaster Bujold, Ellen Kushner... Yeah, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel there. Clearly.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sistercoyote, 2010-05-15 12:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]enrythe8th, 2010-05-16 03:19 am UTC

[info]izzy_the_hutt
2010-05-14 07:31 pm UTC (link)
"[W]ith all the retellings I've written, and the secret history series (read: historical fanfic, especially Midnight Hever Come, which has almost no invented mortal characters in it), I'd be a hell of a hypocrite if I spat on fanfic."

I officially love whoever this woman is. Way to sum it up.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2010-05-14 07:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2010-05-15 04:22 am UTC

[info]singe
2010-05-14 08:06 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! Mmmm, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Terry Pratchett, J.K. Rowling, C.S. Lewis, Neil Gaiman and many more of my favorite authors are on the pro side, I see, and on the con side there's...a great many people I wouldn't know if they bit me and Anne Rice.

Huh. Personally I think the writers FOR fanfic can beat up the writers AGAINST fanfic any day of the week. And I'd love to see it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sylvacoer, 2010-05-14 08:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]watersword, 2010-05-14 08:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sylvacoer, 2010-05-14 09:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]watersword, 2010-05-14 09:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sylvacoer, 2010-05-14 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2010-05-14 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-05-14 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sylvacoer, 2010-05-14 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]singe, 2010-05-14 09:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lydiabell, 2010-05-14 08:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]miera_c, 2010-05-14 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-05-14 09:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]singe, 2010-05-14 09:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilsqueakers, 2010-05-15 10:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2010-05-14 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]librarianmouse, 2010-05-15 08:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]singe, 2010-05-16 03:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]librarianmouse, 2010-05-16 04:43 pm UTC

[info]blue_penguin
2010-05-14 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Man, Jasper Fforde, I'm disappointed in you. I mean, it's not like you made a name for yourself by writing a massive crossover fanfic of all your favorite public-domain books!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]becktionary, 2010-05-14 11:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2010-05-14 11:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]becktionary, 2010-05-15 12:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miss_eponine, 2010-05-15 01:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]becktionary, 2010-05-15 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]red_eft, 2010-05-15 02:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mastervex, 2010-05-15 04:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anonyrat, 2010-05-15 04:23 am UTC

[info]evilsqueakers
2010-05-15 10:30 am UTC (link)
*jaw drops* How much do I love Kelley Armstrong's response?"

"I'd be thrilled. What greater compliment to an author than to want to write stories using the characters/universe she created? If anyone ever did write fanfic based on my books, I wouldn't just 'not mind', I'd link 'em up to my site and show 'em off!"

I knew I liked her for a reason.

Rachel Caine, I love her, too. Nora Roberts, Stephenie Meyer (wait, really?)...

Wait, I just typed SMeyer and praise. Something is wrong in this world.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sandglass
2010-05-14 09:44 pm UTC (link)
he makes it known to everyone so everyone who considers doing GRRM fanfic must face a moral of choice of respecting or disrespecting the author's wishes.

I don't know why people think that's such a hard choice.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mechanicaljewel
2010-05-14 11:07 pm UTC (link)
PROTIP: "Because I said so" stops being a valid reason for anything when you are dealing with anyone who is over 16 and/or not your children.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sqbr
2010-05-16 08:42 am UTC (link)
I think there is a fundamental difference between depicting a fictional character in pictoral form and writing fan fiction, which is essentially controlling their actions. Its definitely not apples to apples.

One is are merely interpreting their physical appearance.

The other is like mind control or something.


As a fanartist I feel oddly offended. Pictures are mind control too dammit! And what about comics??

(I think the rest of the wrongness is just too much much for my brain to bother processing)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]pojypojy
2010-05-16 04:28 pm UTC (link)
Eh. I tried to calmly explain how art doesn't work the way he thinks it works, but apparently written fiction is ~superior or something.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sqbr
2010-05-18 07:06 am UTC (link)
Maybe you should have tried explaining it with a picture :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pojypojy, 2010-05-18 12:40 pm UTC

[info]glitterandlube
2010-05-30 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Does this mean I am not supposed to be reading those graphic novels based on the Hedge Knight?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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