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brown_betty ([info]brown_betty) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2010-08-17 11:01:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:author entitlement, books/authors, do your research, i know it because of my learnings, not good with criticism, sci-fi people like to fight, writers are often pompous douches

When academic bunfighting meets NERD RAGE we all win.
The first volume of William H. Patterson's biography of Robert Heinlein is released today, but the scuffle over it is already a week old.

This is approximately the millionth Heinlein biography to hit the shelves, so perhaps it is a bit difficult to see why it matters, but this underestimates the devotion of Heinlein nerds. Jo Walton, ([info]papersky) published a review on Tor.com, in which although she says some nice things, she concludes:

Patterson’s biography is also riddled with tiny insignificant errors of the kind that make me lose trust. [...] If I can’t trust Patterson on details that I know backwards and forwards and inside out, how can I trust him on matters that are new to me?
A reasonable doubt!



In rides DocJames: "this book contains NO errors concerning Heinlein", although it "may have a few minor details wrong," and this bad review is "criminal."

DocJames is particularly insistent that the book has reproduced the primary documents accurately, although he does admit the primary documentation may have errors.

Asks vicki: I am not at all sure what you mean by "the Heinlein materials are utterly reliable...so long as one realizes that error may be in them to begin with." I assume this isn't the oxymoron of "they're reliable except when they're not."

Carlos Skullsplitter brings up two errors which he feels are not minor: the biographer appears to have confused the battles on Iwo Jima with events on Okinawa, and has attributed to Heinlein a disease which does not appear to exist.

DocJames dismisses these: He's talked with the author: the imaginary disease is in the primary sources, and that's good enough for him!

Then the author himself, Bill Patterson shows up! There is no way this can possibly go wrong!

Sez Patterson, there is no Okinawa/Iwo Jima confusion, since nothing of the sort is mentioned in his book! As for the imaginary disease, medical terminology was fluid back then, and if he failed to go into this, "This was a judgment call not about a fact, but about what did and did not require further explication."

Another commenter: There may be teeeeeeny-tiny errors, but the book is extensively footnoted. If the disease name may be different now, that's a question for the history of medicine, not history of Heinlein!

Mr. Skullsplitter, (if I have a teeny-tiny crush on him, it's partly due to his name,) points out that Heinlein's nonexistent disease appears nowhere else in the history of medicine, and if Heinlein suffered from a brand-new disease, that's, to say the least, interesting. Alternately, "it strikes me as plausible that a promising young naval officer with gonorrhea might be diagnosed with a similar-looking organism in order not to have a stain on his record. I can think of stranger things the Navy has done for its people." Possibly relevant in a Heinlein bio?

But no! Why can't people see the important thing: Patterson correctly reproduced the name on the medical paperwork!

James Nicoll shows up to helpfully provide the author with the Iwo Jima reference which slipped his mind. Whoops! Looks like it's actually in the book, which Patterson admits.

DocJames responds to Señor Skullsplitter, charitably admitting he may have a point, which has he considered submitting as an article?
As for the issues of veracity and due diligence, when one looks at the official medical record, one does not often go and research things any further, because the presumption is that the official records are correct, unless one has reason to doubt that record. [...] My sense at reading the biography, which I have done periodically since the earliest stages, is that the author extensively researched every thread that needed explication. The documentation from the Heinlein archives is thorough and exhaustive; there is, with one minor exception, not a single assertion about Heinlein's life that is not grounded and cited. The one minor exception was omitted by accident, but the reference exists.

This is called scholarship.
Also, although Patterson asserts that Heinlein "would have" met Edna St. Vincent Millay, "this was written in the subjunctive tense," so you can't criticize it.

He is eventually brought to admit that Okinawa is not, in fact, Iwo Jima, but still, Patterson is basically right: "These are, in my opinion, minor and unrelated to the veracity of the life story of Heinlein. [...] the Japanese willingness to die is the same."

You may be beginning to wonder why DocJames is defending Patterson's work so diligently. Well, "This is a very important book, and highly readable and informative. There has never been a two-volume biography of any SF author, excepting H.G. Wells, to the best of my knowledge. This is, to be succinct, ground-breaking." TWO VOLUMES, you guys!

DocJames just fell victim to the classic blunder: never get involved in a nerd-fight on Tor.com!

"The best of your knowledge is somewhat lacking, I fear. A quick check reveals "Edgar Rice Burroughs: The Man Who Created Tarzan" by Irwin Porges (ISBN-10: 0345251318)" He included the ISBN! Oh, snap! (Alan Bellingham)

Only slightly less well known is this: Never go in against a grammarian when tense is on the line:
If I may, the term "subjunctive tense" is used incorrectly. It has a technical meaning in grammar, and the given quotation is definitely not in the subjunctive mood (which is not a tense). Nor does the subjunctive mood express the flavor of a time and place; it is used counterfactually.
(swoons a bit at correct definition of subjunctive.)

It's all cooled down quite a bit as of writing, with Patterson thanking commenters for catching his errors, but who knows what will happen if DocJames returns.



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[info]phosfate
2010-08-17 07:45 pm UTC (link)
I am always glad to see Heinlein's fans carrying on his traditions.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]overlord_mordax, 2010-08-17 07:57 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-17 08:47 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-17 09:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-17 10:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arionhunter, 2010-08-17 10:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-08-17 10:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-08-19 06:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-08-19 08:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-08-19 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-08-19 07:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-08-19 08:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavella, 2010-08-22 10:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-08-17 10:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-17 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-08-17 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2010-08-17 11:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-08-17 11:41 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2010-08-18 01:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-08-18 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-18 04:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-08-18 04:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2010-08-18 05:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]miera_c, 2010-08-18 04:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2010-08-18 05:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]solle, 2010-08-18 09:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]atreyu, 2010-08-18 11:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dunmurderin, 2010-08-18 01:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]solle, 2010-08-18 02:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bigbigtruck, 2010-08-18 04:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 05:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aliaras, 2010-08-18 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]solle, 2010-08-19 12:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-19 07:14 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]jonquil, 2010-08-18 04:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 05:53 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]nursewretched, 2010-08-18 07:58 pm UTC

[info]missdeep
2010-08-17 08:02 pm UTC (link)
This left me with a big 'ol smile on my face. Oh DocJames, you.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-17 08:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]missdeep, 2010-08-17 08:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]platedlizard, 2010-08-18 05:59 am UTC

[info]jkefka
2010-08-17 08:06 pm UTC (link)
Also, although Patterson asserts that Heinlein "would have" met Edna St. Vincent Millay, "this was written in the subjunctive tense," so you can't criticize it.

Good news, everyone! Anything said in the subjunctive is beyond criticism! Twilight would have been a good book! Avatar would have been well-cast! This is fun! Or, no, wait, this would be fun.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kitt_in_socks, 2010-08-17 08:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cyndra_falin, 2010-08-17 11:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2010-08-18 12:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]isntitironic, 2010-08-17 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]come_love_sleep, 2010-08-18 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jkefka, 2010-08-18 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]keri, 2010-08-18 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-18 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubosquared, 2010-08-19 03:35 pm UTC
Blame where blame's due - [info]mcity, 2010-08-19 04:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]msilverstar, 2010-08-17 11:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kirsten, 2010-08-18 04:32 pm UTC

[info]willywanka
2010-08-17 08:14 pm UTC (link)
"this book contains NO errors concerning Heinlein", although it "may have a few minor details wrong,"

I love published-author wank.

(Reply to this)


[info]keevacaereni
2010-08-17 08:20 pm UTC (link)
The best thing about all of this is the correct definition of the subjunctive. I read "subjunctive tense", got all annoyed, and then scrolled down to find someone had done my work for me. *salutes*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kalakagatha, 2010-08-17 11:09 pm UTC

[info]glossing2
2010-08-17 08:41 pm UTC (link)
DocJames just fell victim to the classic blunder: never get involved in a nerd-fight on Tor.com
Fixed that for you.

(Reply to this)


[info]kitt_in_socks
2010-08-17 08:55 pm UTC (link)
So these people are okay with being not entirely right, but don't you dare say their information was wrong.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-17 09:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notjo, 2010-08-17 09:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-08-17 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2010-08-17 11:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notjo, 2010-08-18 01:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2010-08-18 07:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notjo, 2010-08-18 07:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2010-08-18 07:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notjo, 2010-08-18 07:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2010-08-19 06:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notjo, 2010-08-19 06:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2010-08-20 07:46 pm UTC
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(no subject) - [info]magnolia_mama, 2010-08-18 02:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-08-18 02:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notjo, 2010-08-18 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]visp, 2010-08-19 10:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notjo, 2010-08-19 10:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]visp, 2010-08-19 11:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2010-08-18 03:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notjo, 2010-08-18 06:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2010-08-18 07:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-08-18 02:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 06:15 pm UTC

[info]duraniedrama
2010-08-17 09:04 pm UTC (link)
James Davis Nicoll:

I would rejoice in the opportunity to know the name of this primary document, as the secondary
documents available online seem to the casual eye to indicate that there were no civilian mass killings on Iwo Jima; no doubt the people running the sites in question would be grateful to have this inexplicable oversight of a terrible crime corrected for them.


That's the most brilliantly snarky version of "dox or GTFO" I've seen in some time.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ikabod, 2010-08-17 09:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jupiterpluvius, 2010-08-18 06:31 am UTC

[info]ikabod
2010-08-17 09:07 pm UTC (link)
Hmph...amateurs. This is a whole lotta wank about a whole lotta nothing. Let's see someone marry Heinlein on the astral plane.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]overlord_mordax, 2010-08-17 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]msilverstar, 2010-08-17 11:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]erototoxin, 2010-08-20 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jupiterpluvius, 2010-08-18 06:31 am UTC

[info]sarracenia
2010-08-17 09:10 pm UTC (link)
but really there are no outsiders in Heinlein fandom.

You know, I'm sure he's right. Everyone who has ever read a Heinlein book is deeply involved in this riveting discussion of "Could a book [shockgasp] have errors?"

(Reply to this)


[info]mister_terrific
2010-08-17 11:29 pm UTC (link)
No one is addressing the important question: does Part Two cover "When Heinlein Went Bugshit"?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-08-18 03:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2010-08-18 07:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2010-08-18 03:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ardath_rekha, 2010-08-18 05:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2010-08-18 05:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-18 10:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jian, 2010-08-18 09:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]erototoxin, 2010-08-20 03:40 am UTC

[info]mister_terrific
2010-08-17 11:35 pm UTC (link)
Interesting. The Jo Walton review links to John Scalzi's thoughts on yaoi the book, and it's not so much nitpicky on details (which I concede are important) as "Wow, this guy was like me".

Kind of the difference between conversation and condemnation.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]msilverstar, 2010-08-17 11:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2010-08-17 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]come_love_sleep, 2010-08-18 12:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2010-08-18 02:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarkhunter, 2010-08-18 02:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jonquil, 2010-08-18 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavella, 2010-08-21 11:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jonquil, 2010-08-21 04:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavella, 2010-08-21 08:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jonquil, 2010-08-21 08:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]galateus, 2010-08-19 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hydriotaphia, 2010-08-18 02:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmattg, 2010-08-18 04:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmattg, 2010-08-18 04:51 am UTC

[info]juliansinger
2010-08-18 12:07 am UTC (link)
An exceptionally flamey person asks, " What Do Heinlein Women Want?"

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 12:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wednesday, 2010-08-18 01:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]juliansinger, 2010-08-18 03:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]re_weird, 2010-08-18 03:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilitu93, 2010-08-18 01:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sandglass, 2010-08-18 02:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]msilverstar, 2010-08-18 06:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2010-08-18 03:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarracenia, 2010-08-18 04:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2010-08-18 05:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2010-08-18 07:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 06:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ikabod, 2010-08-18 03:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2010-08-18 03:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]doire, 2010-08-18 09:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-08-19 06:49 am UTC

[info]chienne
2010-08-18 12:20 am UTC (link)
"this book contains NO errors concerning Heinlein", although it "may have a few minor details wrong,"

THIS ISN'T A CULT; THIS IS DIVINE JUSTICE!

(Reply to this)


[info]witty
2010-08-18 02:38 am UTC (link)
The crazypants of the Heinlein fan are not to be underestimated. In addition to Juliansinger's link above, there's this gem by the same blogger:

I’ve been on a dozen or two Heinlein panels at cons, and it always devolves to name calling. I will admit I am far from an unbiased observer, but hearing someone call Heinlein a racist or a sexist offends me.

One wonders, indeed, how such a panel could possibly devolve into name-calling! And who starts it every time.

Seriously, if I did not already think of Heinlein as basically a fanfic writer (writing fantasies of the Navy career he wished he'd had), the "You criticizers are all JELLUS H8ERS!!!!" BNF bandwagonning would be definitive proof of his belonging well within the fannish fold.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cmattg, 2010-08-18 04:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]witty, 2010-08-18 05:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-08-18 07:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tofuknight, 2010-08-19 06:13 pm UTC

[info]tez
2010-08-18 03:21 am UTC (link)
"This is a very important book, and highly readable and informative. There has never been a two-volume biography of any SF author, excepting H.G. Wells, to the best of my knowledge. This is, to be succinct, ground-breaking."

Oh okay, just regular biographies? That means autobiographies don't count, right?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-18 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_penguin, 2010-08-18 05:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]major_fischer, 2010-08-18 05:22 pm UTC

[info]platedlizard
2010-08-18 05:42 am UTC (link)
The first thing I read by Heinlein was Farnham's Freehold.

Aside from a couple short stories it was also the last.

He was one messed up guy.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2010-08-18 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]platedlizard, 2010-08-18 07:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rosehiptea, 2010-08-18 06:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-08-18 07:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aliaras, 2010-08-18 11:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonfangirl, 2010-08-19 07:56 am UTC

[info]evilsqueakers
2010-08-18 07:28 am UTC (link)
Thank you. I've had a beyond shitty couple of days and this write up - and that's not even reading the source or either author - makes me laugh.


Bless their hearts.

(Reply to this)


[info]anonyrat
2010-08-18 08:28 am UTC (link)
Also, although Patterson asserts that Heinlein "would have" met Edna St. Vincent Millay, "this was written in the subjunctive tense," so you can't criticize it.

This explains a lot about Cicero's success as an advocate, actually.

(Reply to this)


[info]caffeine_fairy
2010-08-18 11:17 am UTC (link)
But I can't decide who to believe...wait...are any of them members of Mensa?

(Reply to this)


[info]snarkhunter
2010-08-18 02:18 pm UTC (link)
I don't read Heinlein, and thus shouldn't care about this, but shoddy scholarship, especially in a biographical context, gets my back up EVERY TIME.

It is my number one pet peeve.

Patterson: maybe you should've caught those errors BEFORE you went to press? Just a thought.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2010-08-18 06:04 pm UTC

tetradecimal
2010-08-18 03:59 pm UTC (link)
I was going to say something about how the only Heinlein book I'd ever read involved a mutant transexual spy who learned to earthbend after he escaped from a kingdom that used transporters to trade arms and legs, but it turns out that was Orson Scott Card.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]violetsquirrel, 2010-08-18 06:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]risha, 2010-08-18 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - tetradecimal, 2010-08-18 08:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 08:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]risha, 2010-08-18 08:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]deliciouschaos, 2010-08-19 12:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]risha, 2010-08-19 03:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deliciouschaos, 2010-08-19 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]risha, 2010-08-19 04:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]goblin, 2010-08-19 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]risha, 2010-08-19 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elektra3, 2010-08-21 07:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavella, 2010-08-21 11:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarracenia, 2010-08-18 10:02 pm UTC

[info]oceanica
2010-08-18 04:43 pm UTC (link)
Counterfactually.

Oh my god I'm in love.

/brb swooning

(Reply to this)


[info]jonquil
2010-08-18 04:58 pm UTC (link)
The crazy hasn't cooled down one bit; see Sarah Hoyt's contributions.
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/08/what-do-heinlein-women-want
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/08/the-church-of-heinlein-mildly-reformed#more

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-18 05:55 pm UTC

[info]veleda_k
2010-08-19 05:55 am UTC (link)
I'm not a historian (I don't even play one on TV), so it's genuinely possible that I'm missing something here. However, am I to understand that when writing a biography, as long as you have sources making a claim, you can include this claim in your book as fact no matter how true it might be? Does this mean that if I say I'm the King of Finland, then years later someone writing about me can say "Veleda was the King of Finland," no matter the evidence that this was not in fact the case?

......I'M THE KING OF FINLAND. WOMEN HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED FOR THE LOVE OF ME. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST F_W.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]duraniedrama, 2010-08-19 11:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jupiterpluvius, 2010-08-20 03:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]veleda_k, 2010-08-20 06:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavella, 2010-08-21 11:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jupiterpluvius, 2010-08-23 03:22 am UTC


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