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brown_betty ([info]brown_betty) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2010-08-17 11:01:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:author entitlement, books/authors, do your research, i know it because of my learnings, not good with criticism, sci-fi people like to fight, writers are often pompous douches

When academic bunfighting meets NERD RAGE we all win.
The first volume of William H. Patterson's biography of Robert Heinlein is released today, but the scuffle over it is already a week old.

This is approximately the millionth Heinlein biography to hit the shelves, so perhaps it is a bit difficult to see why it matters, but this underestimates the devotion of Heinlein nerds. Jo Walton, ([info]papersky) published a review on Tor.com, in which although she says some nice things, she concludes:

Patterson’s biography is also riddled with tiny insignificant errors of the kind that make me lose trust. [...] If I can’t trust Patterson on details that I know backwards and forwards and inside out, how can I trust him on matters that are new to me?
A reasonable doubt!



In rides DocJames: "this book contains NO errors concerning Heinlein", although it "may have a few minor details wrong," and this bad review is "criminal."

DocJames is particularly insistent that the book has reproduced the primary documents accurately, although he does admit the primary documentation may have errors.

Asks vicki: I am not at all sure what you mean by "the Heinlein materials are utterly reliable...so long as one realizes that error may be in them to begin with." I assume this isn't the oxymoron of "they're reliable except when they're not."

Carlos Skullsplitter brings up two errors which he feels are not minor: the biographer appears to have confused the battles on Iwo Jima with events on Okinawa, and has attributed to Heinlein a disease which does not appear to exist.

DocJames dismisses these: He's talked with the author: the imaginary disease is in the primary sources, and that's good enough for him!

Then the author himself, Bill Patterson shows up! There is no way this can possibly go wrong!

Sez Patterson, there is no Okinawa/Iwo Jima confusion, since nothing of the sort is mentioned in his book! As for the imaginary disease, medical terminology was fluid back then, and if he failed to go into this, "This was a judgment call not about a fact, but about what did and did not require further explication."

Another commenter: There may be teeeeeeny-tiny errors, but the book is extensively footnoted. If the disease name may be different now, that's a question for the history of medicine, not history of Heinlein!

Mr. Skullsplitter, (if I have a teeny-tiny crush on him, it's partly due to his name,) points out that Heinlein's nonexistent disease appears nowhere else in the history of medicine, and if Heinlein suffered from a brand-new disease, that's, to say the least, interesting. Alternately, "it strikes me as plausible that a promising young naval officer with gonorrhea might be diagnosed with a similar-looking organism in order not to have a stain on his record. I can think of stranger things the Navy has done for its people." Possibly relevant in a Heinlein bio?

But no! Why can't people see the important thing: Patterson correctly reproduced the name on the medical paperwork!

James Nicoll shows up to helpfully provide the author with the Iwo Jima reference which slipped his mind. Whoops! Looks like it's actually in the book, which Patterson admits.

DocJames responds to Señor Skullsplitter, charitably admitting he may have a point, which has he considered submitting as an article?
As for the issues of veracity and due diligence, when one looks at the official medical record, one does not often go and research things any further, because the presumption is that the official records are correct, unless one has reason to doubt that record. [...] My sense at reading the biography, which I have done periodically since the earliest stages, is that the author extensively researched every thread that needed explication. The documentation from the Heinlein archives is thorough and exhaustive; there is, with one minor exception, not a single assertion about Heinlein's life that is not grounded and cited. The one minor exception was omitted by accident, but the reference exists.

This is called scholarship.
Also, although Patterson asserts that Heinlein "would have" met Edna St. Vincent Millay, "this was written in the subjunctive tense," so you can't criticize it.

He is eventually brought to admit that Okinawa is not, in fact, Iwo Jima, but still, Patterson is basically right: "These are, in my opinion, minor and unrelated to the veracity of the life story of Heinlein. [...] the Japanese willingness to die is the same."

You may be beginning to wonder why DocJames is defending Patterson's work so diligently. Well, "This is a very important book, and highly readable and informative. There has never been a two-volume biography of any SF author, excepting H.G. Wells, to the best of my knowledge. This is, to be succinct, ground-breaking." TWO VOLUMES, you guys!

DocJames just fell victim to the classic blunder: never get involved in a nerd-fight on Tor.com!

"The best of your knowledge is somewhat lacking, I fear. A quick check reveals "Edgar Rice Burroughs: The Man Who Created Tarzan" by Irwin Porges (ISBN-10: 0345251318)" He included the ISBN! Oh, snap! (Alan Bellingham)

Only slightly less well known is this: Never go in against a grammarian when tense is on the line:
If I may, the term "subjunctive tense" is used incorrectly. It has a technical meaning in grammar, and the given quotation is definitely not in the subjunctive mood (which is not a tense). Nor does the subjunctive mood express the flavor of a time and place; it is used counterfactually.
(swoons a bit at correct definition of subjunctive.)

It's all cooled down quite a bit as of writing, with Patterson thanking commenters for catching his errors, but who knows what will happen if DocJames returns.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]cmdr_zoom
2010-08-17 08:47 pm UTC (link)
Somewhere on the Net, someone is arguing about Heinlein. Always.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]3p_anon
2010-08-17 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Indeed, there were posts arguing about Heinlein already on the servers when ARPANET was first switched on in 1969.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cmdr_zoom
2010-08-17 09:58 pm UTC (link)
I was introduced to the concept of the Eternal (Floating?) Heinlein Flamewar back during the peak of my USEnet activity, circa 1990 or so.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]brown_betty
2010-08-17 10:10 pm UTC (link)
Does this eternal flamewar have a topic, or does one just say “Heinlein!” on the internet, and people show up and fight about whatever?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]arionhunter
2010-08-17 10:18 pm UTC (link)
Clearly you are unable to appreciate the depth and cultural commentary inherent to Heinlein's incestuous mother-fucking fantasies!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]frequentmouse
2010-08-17 10:24 pm UTC (link)
Not to mention his far-right libertarian view of government and economy!

(We will not go into the compound complex clusterfuck of potential fail in any discussion of Farnham's Freehold.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-08-19 06:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-08-19 08:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-08-19 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frequentmouse, 2010-08-19 07:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jat_sapphire, 2010-08-19 08:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tavella, 2010-08-22 10:04 pm UTC

[info]persona
2010-08-17 10:47 pm UTC (link)
... What.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2010-08-17 10:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-08-17 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2010-08-17 11:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-08-17 11:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2010-08-17 11:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-08-18 01:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tequilaghost, 2010-08-18 12:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]persona, 2010-08-18 07:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yoritomo_reiko, 2010-08-17 11:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mister_terrific, 2010-08-17 11:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aliaras, 2010-08-18 09:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2010-08-18 04:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jaseroque, 2010-08-18 02:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2010-08-18 03:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]neuronin, 2010-08-19 05:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]m_butterfly, 2010-08-17 11:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-18 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindset, 2010-08-18 01:35 am UTC

[info]blue_penguin
2010-08-18 01:39 am UTC (link)
Iiiit's the oldest established permanent floating SF wank on the net!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sgaana
2010-08-18 03:18 am UTC (link)
*loves you for Guys and Dolls reference*

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cmdr_zoom
2010-08-18 04:36 am UTC (link)
That said, I think it might actually be.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sgaana, 2010-08-18 04:51 am UTC

[info]blue_penguin
2010-08-18 05:56 am UTC (link)
Thank you! It was all I could think of when I read that comment.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]miera_c
2010-08-18 04:45 am UTC (link)
Crap. Beaten to the musical theater reference punch!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]blue_penguin
2010-08-18 05:53 am UTC (link)
I am victorious! For once.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]solle
2010-08-18 09:01 am UTC (link)
You know what? In my world, there are two Heinleins. On the one hand, there's the guy who wrote awesome sci-fi with spaceships and revolutions and polyamory and the King Willem The Dutch Space Emperor and body glitter fashion and NAZIS ON THE MOON. On the other hand, there's the guy who wrote a lot of self-indulgent wank about people sleeping with their moms.

I stick to reading the first Heinlein and avoiding all discussion about the second. It keeps me sane.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]atreyu
2010-08-18 11:36 am UTC (link)
Is there a handy guide for figuring out which books fit under which Heinlein category? I could really use that, the last time I picked up a (recommended!) book I was horribly scarred.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]dunmurderin
2010-08-18 01:19 pm UTC (link)
His juveniles tend to be less self-indulgent. Personally, I like those works of his about the best, plus his short stories in Past Through Tomorrow.

Personally, Tunnel in the Sky is a favorite.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]solle
2010-08-18 02:05 pm UTC (link)
All of his YA books are safe, and most of them are very fun to read. (Recommended: "The Rolling Stones", "Have Space Suit - Will Travel", "Rocket Ship Galileo", "Double Star", "Starman Jones".)

"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" is full of Heinlein's Thoughts On Sex And War, but it's also one of the best books I've ever read. Ever.

Avoid anything about Lazarus Long, and "Gulf", and (although YMMV) "Stranger In A Strange Land". (That's one's interesting for the positive cultural shockwave it caused, but it's still a lot of self-indulgent propaganda.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]bigbigtruck
2010-08-18 04:50 pm UTC (link)
I thought the first half of SIASL was good, but the rest felt like familiar "oh, polygyny is so much more ~*advanced*~ and ~*enlightened*~ " douchery.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]brown_betty
2010-08-18 05:54 pm UTC (link)
Although I would add the warning for TMIAHM that the whole thing is written in a dialect of his own devising, which nearly sent me around the bend.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]aliaras
2010-08-18 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Also, it falls into the category of what I call libertarian fairy-tales, with lots of Good Hardworking Folk who don't need a government, where the best man always wins fairly, and where a central story conflict pits the protagonists against an overbearing cruel authoritarian regime.

Which can be a lot of good fun if you don't take it too seriously, but is so very not some people's cup of tea. TMIAHM does a good job of being a story, not just libertarian propaganda, so it's worth reading even if the ideology runs counter to your own.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]solle, 2010-08-19 12:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmdr_zoom, 2010-08-19 07:14 pm UTC

[info]cmdr_zoom
2010-08-19 07:09 pm UTC (link)
I've gone on record that I'd give a limb to be able to write as well as his YA books. The later, more self-indulgent stuff? Nah. Anyone can spooge on a page. :(

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]jonquil
2010-08-18 04:22 pm UTC (link)
Glory Road is pretty much the perfect young-man-with-a-sword-sees-the-stars book. And Star *is* the perfect middle-period Heinlein heroine: sexual without being a caricature, brave, and powerful.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]brown_betty
2010-08-18 05:53 pm UTC (link)
Doesn't Glory Road have that section where the dude is like “If you're not willing to sleep with my wife or daughter, you're insulting them and me!”

I mean, supposedly the wife or daughter were enthusiastic about it, but it made me a little ooky.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]jonquil
2010-08-18 05:56 pm UTC (link)
There are ooky bits. Scar also spanks Star at one point, and it's not sex-play but an admonition.

There's also a blindingly stupid statement by a favored character that Earth is the only planet with prostitution because it's the only planet that believes you can charge for something a woman has in infinite supply. Which left me wondering if we're also the only planet with paid cooks, maids, and indeed writers...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]nursewretched
2010-08-18 07:58 pm UTC (link)
My dad has a similar system regarding Heinlein: if it was published past a certain year and/or stars certain protagonists, he does not read it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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