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John Yik ([info]john_yik) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2013-02-11 20:49:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:fandom: harry potter

You can't censor my bondage slavery fic! Part One.
I haven't posted here in years. Well, until I finally found something definitely worth preserving over here. This wank is reported in two parts, primarily because the wank itself is spread over two sizeable threads on the same forum.

Today's new flavour of wank comes to us courtesy of the SpaceBattles forum. The site originated as hosting for several fanmade 3D movies. From there, the site added a forum, becoming a place for science fiction fans to come talk about their favorite shows. Today, the site enjoys a userbase of almost 75,000 members, with subforums dedicated to roleplaying, fanart, and arguing over whether Superman could beat Goku, or the Enterprise-D could fight a Star Destroyer.

None of those, however, are what concerns us, today.

Spacebattles also possesses a creative writing subforum. In practice, this is mostly filled with fanfiction of varying levels of quality, plus another subforum dedicated to recommendation and handing out plot bunnies. For the most part, the content there consists of various flavours of gun porn, power-gaming, and a phenomenon known as "Humanity Fuck Yeah", in which plucky humanity triumphs over a variety of alien invaders out to enslave/destroy us. (Popular candidates for this role include the Minbari of Babylon 5 and the Twelve Colonies of Kobol, after two very popular an influential fanfics first posted on that board.)

All this is background to the events recorded in this post.

Forums user Lord Charon makes a post in a plot bunny thread for Harry Potter fanfics describing an idea he just can't let go off:

When Hagrid goes to get Harry, he introduces him to a girl on a leash, whom Hagrid calls 'Ermione, and says is going to be Harry's guide and servant due to having been raised in the muggle world, but also having lived a few years in the wizarding world. When Harry sees (or perhaps touches) the crest on her collar, he gets a feeling similar to the one he gets when he first holds his wand, and when he asks about the collar and leash, Hagrid explains that the leash is just to show who's responsible for her, while the collar keeps her under control, and connects her to her Master (Harry). Hagrid looks on her fondly, like one of his 'interesting creatures' (well, she's probably less dangerous than a dragon, at least), but reluctantly admits that she killed three people, even if it wasn't her fault.


Responses range from stunned incomprehension to, "This is just wrong." Some time later, a mod arrives to berate Lord Charon and ban him for the contents of his post. Lord Charon's post, however, is left intact.

Shit immediately begins to fly:

"The ruling was shit. Sure it was dark. Very dark in fact. But not worthy of an insta ban. I could somewhat understand a temp band but this.... This is just a mod going on a power trip to lord his own values over others using the vague rules of the site."

"I'm not even sure it's worth a temp-ban. It could have gone very inappropriate places, but merely discussing potential 'slavery' in a setting that actually has it (House Elves) even if it is vaguely sanatized."

Among the voices loud in their disapproval of the mod action is arthurh3535, who is equally loud in denouncingt he perceived arbitrariness of the mod action:
So, basically, it maybe/sorta alludes to something so isn't worth deleting, but bring down the ban-hammer so that everyone know that you ban even thinking of writing something uncomfortable because 'girl slavery' automatically equates squicky sex-slavery.

There's at least two sets of double-standards in that...

Despite (or perhaps because of) a mod stepping in to clarify the administration's position, other posters continue to echo arthurh3535's paranoia of mod oppression:
"What I dislike about this recent slavery issue is that it de facto cuts off a huge avenue to establish why a person / race / polity / religion / custom / nation deserves to get it's shit stomped in unless I take an alrready well established example which exihibits the feature I need in my antagonist(...)Now let us take an reader who has never heard of Draka and is now wondering: "Who are these Draka guys and why is everyone else in thread cheering that they're about to be invaded by walking sharktopus ?". So when he asks the thread, what answer should he get, according to how I interpret this recent application of moderator interpretation of the relevant rules ?

I think it would run along the lines of "Oh we can't tell you, we would get banned for it". "

(Note: The Draka mentioned above are a villainous race of Mary Sues from a pulp book series by S.M. Stirling. The series describes the slow conquest and enslavement of humanity by this race of genetic supermen, with the exception of a small remnant that flees for outer space. Understandably, they make somewhat popular villains for crossover fanfiction on Spacebattles.)

Surprisingly, despite comments from various posters explaining exactly what the problem is, arthurh3535 recalcitrantly fails to understand the reasoning behind the original mod action. In desperation, forums user Harry Leferts posts snippets from a particularly dark fic he wrote, pointing out that he never sustained any mod action from these posts, only for arthrh3535 to sneer:
"If the Mod had decided that it was too much for that moment, you'd be banned because he felt it was 'too much' even if it was not a deep or disturbing imagery per se.(...)Tomorrow he might decide that your story is too far and ban you, because you should be an amazing mind reader with precognitive powers to know that he can just decide something like that so arbitrarily.


Finally, not one but two mods step in to declare an end to the discussion:
"...if you are writing up a story(or even a story idea) which has an underage child being a "slave", and you don't think to yourself "wow this could go horribly in the wrong direction, maybe I should make it absolutely clear of what this is, and more importantly, what this isn't", because finishing it off with "'Servant' might or might not mean 'slave', it's up to the writer." tells me the poster didn't care. And that is not going to fly.

Now seriously, drop this derailment. You now have a second mod confirming what the first did(which shouldn't even be needed in the first place!). This goes double for all the people needlessly bitching about Kensai; we have a Complaint Procedure, check the news forum and follow it, before I start handing out temp-bans.

"The key issue is that we have found we can't trust this sub forums judgement at all.

You want to complain about us cracking down on stuff, but we're trying to contain this thing by stopping people from driving the Creeper Monkey to the Little Girl International Airport. If you have a problem with that, blame the people who buddy fucked you, assuming you're not the person doing all the buddy fucking."


This effectively ends the argument in this thread. Discussion moves on to more pleasant topics. The wank however, has not died. Elsewhere in the forum, it is brewing. That discussion, the fallout from the whole affair, will be discussed in my next post.


(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]seiberwing
2013-02-11 04:46 pm UTC (link)
I have yet to find an instance where a male writing about an enslaved female (excluding historical stuff and so on, of course) has not turned into a fetish fic. Ever.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-02-11 09:05 pm UTC (link)
It has to exist, right? A man must be able to right about female slavery, even rape, without being fetish-y about it. And yet, every recent published example I can think of... doesn't. Even Jim C. Hines ended up disappointing me, though I could tell he was trying not to be gross. Didn't work well enough for me to finish the book, though.

Actually, Bioware did an okay job with Dragon Age 2. I don't know who wrote parts where it was clear mages were being raped, though. And they did not do an okay job with Star Wars: ToR. (Tip: if you are not allowed to say the word "rape" or even "sex" in your media, do not put rape in it all over the damn place.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]seiberwing
2013-02-11 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Didn't DA2 have actual ladywomen on the team to provide ladyinput?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-02-11 09:18 pm UTC (link)
Yep. About half the writing staff, iirc. Bioware's usually been pretty good about it generally, though (unless I'm forgetting things, entirely possible), which is one reason ToR is such a big disappointment to me in that area.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]white_serpent
2013-02-11 11:57 pm UTC (link)
Wheel of Time?

The constant dwelling on whippings in Tar Valon struck me as fetish, but the specific examples of female servitude or slavery in the Wheel of Time (gai'shain, damane) didn't.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cinnamonical
2013-02-12 01:11 am UTC (link)
Even Jim C. Hines ended up disappointing me, though I could tell he was trying not to be gross. Didn't work well enough for me to finish the book, though.

Which book was it? Was it from the Princess novels?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-02-12 05:08 am UTC (link)
Libriomancer. He tried, he really did. Any maybe it worked out okay for some people. But not for me.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cinnamonical
2013-02-12 05:11 am UTC (link)
Aww, I was looking forward to checking out that book! Well, I'll keep it in mind whenever I get around to it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]soc_puppet
2013-02-13 04:07 am UTC (link)
I wrote a detailed review of the consent-related issues in the book; I can link you to it if you're interested (note that it's spoiler-tastic for the end). Jim read it himself and then PMed me to say that he agreed with my review and would "be troubled by anyone who *didn't* find [Lena's] character at least a little troubling..." If that helps at all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cinnamonical
2013-02-13 04:14 am UTC (link)
Ooh, I'd definitely be interested! And Hines has always been good (well, to my knowledge of having followed his blog for a year or two before I stopped following most blogs in general) with owning up to his mistakes and privilege, which is why despite any issues I'm still willing to give his work a try. It doesn't stop his mistakes from being hurtful, but it makes me personally more willing to "engage" with the work, if that makes sense.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]soc_puppet
2013-02-13 04:33 am UTC (link)
Sure thing; here it is. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

He's still pretty good at that, IMO. Still makes mistakes occasionally, but cleans up his own messes to the best of his ability and tries not to make the same ones again. I tend to assume he's acting in good faith, which is one of the things that helped me get through the book itself, consent issues and all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cinnamonical
2013-02-13 05:10 am UTC (link)
Huh, your review has made me more interested in getting around to reading the book! And also I want to re-read the Princess novels at some point.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]soc_puppet, 2013-02-13 06:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cinnamonical, 2013-02-13 10:52 pm UTC

[info]uldihaa
2013-02-12 03:17 am UTC (link)
Can you tell me where in SW:ToR the rape stuff is? I'm playing it, and I'd really like to avoid that if I can.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-02-12 05:03 am UTC (link)
It is all over the place, so I will likely miss many things in this list.

A whole lot of time whenever slavery is mentioned. On Tattoine, in multiple quests, slavers kidnap ONLY women. This is so lacking in plausibility in a galaxy in which slaves are openly used in construction and such, that it is very fetishy. Also one quest, Republic side, treats the women who were kidnapped as secondary to the nearest male character's concern for them.

All of Nar Shadaa, both sides. All those "dancers"? Sex slaves. The Sith Warrior is the only one who can do anything about it, and that is only the smallest dent.

The Sith Warrior quest line. You have a decision over whether or not to kidnap a woman and take her to a man who is going to rape her. (Again, the word "rape" is not used, which is what really grosses me out about this -- that the game uses weasel-words. You do get to kill the man if you want, btw.) If you are female, you can order one of your male companions to have sex with you. It's obvious that he's very much fine with this, and he's the kind of guy who would likely blow up your ship if he wasn't. But there is, as far as I can tell, no way to start a romance with him without ordering him to sleep with you. As you're Sith and he's not and you're his commander ... yeah. If you want, you can also sexually harass the other male companion who joins the Warrior, though happily this is not necessary to his romance. Unhappily, he will still romance you even if you do this. (The beginning flirting with him isn't sexually harassing, but there comes a point where he makes clear it is unwelcome, and you can keep doing it.)

I have played Knight and Inquisitor to their conclusions, and seen Consular to the end, and if your character is a woman, there isn't any rape or dubcon within those questlines that I can remember. (But if you're a Knight, you get darkside points for romancing your one romance interest, and some of the lines you can say slut-shame yourself.) If your character is a man, your romance interest is your padawan/apprentice, you have even more power over her than you'd expect just knowing that, and she calls you "master" the whole time. This is also true of the male Consular and dark side male Warrior. But not of any of the romance interests for a female PC, who are better-written and altogether less squick-making, even counting the one you can order to sleep with you. It's obviously not written to be rape, but I don't see how any of the female companions in question can be said to have freedom to withhold consent, either. The male Consular's romance story particularly squicks me out, though technically she probably has more freedom than the other companions I've mentioned.

I know I'm missing things, both because I can't remember it all and because I haven't played all the class quests. Avoiding it just isn't possible. I got to the point where I was constantly ready for rapeyness, and it turned out to be kinda necessary. To avoid it as much as possible, I'd say: 1) Play a female character 2) Avoid the Sith Warrior questline. Overall, I do like the Sith Warrior questline, and I very much enjoy the romance with Malavai Quinn... but the whole thing needs trigger warnings. The whole game needs trigger warnings.

Basically, there is a ton of rape all over the place, in a game in which you can put female characters but not male characters in sex slave outfits, in which there are exactly zero male exotic dancers but female exotic dancers/sex slaves in nearly every cantina and sometimes other random locations. They did an absolutely terrible job with this, though the romances for female characters are much more varied and just plain better overall than those for male characters. And someone at Bioware has such a severe male master/female student fetish, it infected half the romances for male PCs in the game. (Or they were severely lazy and copy-pasted.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-02-12 05:06 am UTC (link)
Holy shit that was a long comment. Sorry for all the Thoughts.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]uldihaa
2013-02-12 06:18 am UTC (link)
No problem! I crossplay, so "your character is a woman, there isn't any rape or dubcon within those questlines that I can remember," is probably the reason I haven't encountered anything that really stood out.

And since I'm playing my Knight as a true Jedi (thus no romance), I haven't seen any of those dialogue choices. My character turns Doc down flat every time he gets flirty (which is always). I did notice that you only get a fraction of the affection points with him unless you flirt back and that annoyed the hell out of me.

I wonder if female Sith Inquisitor will also be able to avoid all that? And my large and intimidating Scoundrel of a female Twi-lek.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-02-12 06:44 am UTC (link)
Among female PCs, no one but the Knight gets darkside points for flirting and romance. A lightside inquisitor even has a very good story arc about how love is neither light nor dark, rubbing it in the face of a particularly obnoxious Jedi. I don't know what they were thinking with female Knights.

But every companion is gonna like you more if you flirt with them. Which I think makes sense. But no one is as aggressive as Doc, I think. (He's my least favorite romance partner in the game by a pretty far ways. This is among male romanceables, as I do not play male characters.) Maybe Kaliyo for male agents?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]uldihaa
2013-02-12 08:32 am UTC (link)
I'm not really bothered by the darkside points for romance, because I can see their point about romantic love leading to passion; and when you think about how love and/or desire has led to jealousy and anger that then led to violence and murders in the real world, I can't honestly say I completely disagree. I don't see it as "love is dark" so much as "love can lead to darkness if certain things happen (like the murder of a loved one or said loved one falling in love with someone else)" and it's better not to tempt yourself. I'd really rather not see what a Jedi fueled by jealousy could do. Though the whole Light/Dark has been rather simplified in Star Wars anyway.

I'll look forward to that lightside inquisitor arc, though. I've never been able to bring myself to play evil characters, so I already know that she'll probably earn more lightside than darkside. I do know she'll be wonderfully sarcastic. With her British accent, I won't be able to resist it. :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ekaterinv, 2013-02-12 09:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mydruthers, 2013-02-13 04:46 pm UTC

[info]uldihaa
2013-02-12 08:35 am UTC (link)
Oh, and I meant that there are several conversations with Doc where the only way to get affection is to flirt. The other choices are either loss of affection, or nothing at all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]franzen
2013-02-12 07:06 pm UTC (link)
I had to keep noting JEDI because this gave me so many flashbacks to ASOIAF.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

tw: discussion of works that deal with rape.
[info]franzen
2013-02-12 06:05 am UTC (link)
Going with some litfic examples first:

(1) Ian McEwan has written a non-fetish rape scene. It's in The Innocent, which is set in Germany during the '50s and the plot centers around counterintel operations. It's not sexy, for the reader or for the character, and it's a break from the standard "stranger rape" trope -- the book's third person limited, the protagonist is meant to be easy to identify with, he's been morally clear until now, and then he rapes his girlfriend. It also avoids the classic "rape in warfare" or "rape of a captive population" card that writers play to excuse themselves from dwelling on the atrocities -- the sexy, sexy atrocities -- in the name of world-building.

Subverted in that at the end of the novel, many decades later, we learn that the girlfriend has forgiven the protagonist, although I think McEwan was deliberately drawing parallels to the fact that "old" and "new" values are identical and, essentially, that history repeats. (It's one theme in the book.)

(2) Jonathan Franzen's Freedom: Patty, one of the three or four major characters, was raped as a teenager. This information is narrated by her, in an autobiographical piece she writes that's part of the novel. I read Freedom when it came out (summer 2010) and was -- just past a series of shattering revictimization experiences c/o Structure, Inc. I can't remember any details of the rape itself (I'm not even sure Franzen provided them, short of establishing that it occurred); Patty's parents talk to the parents of the rapist, but they're too politically powerful to move against. There's a scene in which her father asks her if a private apology would suffice and Patty attempts to explain that it was the way he looked at her afterward, as if she was nothing -- I'm paraphrasing wildly here, but that specific bit of writing was one of those moments in reading where the reader's reality and the text merge until there's a sense of not alone. I was stunned by how well he pulled it off.

The rest of the novel is absolutely godawful with its treatment of female characters (it doesn't even pass the Bechdel test), which enraged me to no end, as Franzen is completely capable of writing strong women when he feels like it (see: Strong Motion). That being said, he swung and hit the ball out of the park, as he managed to write about, again, a common, unreported, unsexy kind of rape and the most salient part of its aftermath (as well as societal failures in dealing with rape, i.e., lack of family acknowledgement and/or the rapist continuing as a valued member of society) and it was -- authentic, both to the character and to real life, at least in my opinion. Certainly, it wasn't sexy.

(3 and 4) And from the fail end of the pool: Michael Chabon wrote a short story in which a woman gives birth to a child conceived during rape (it's not in A Model World -- it's one of his earlier pieces) and fails, hard. The best part of that story? The narrator is the woman's husband (or boyfriend, I can't remember), so, yeah, it's "rape of women as male character development" hour. I don't hold Chabon in particularly high esteem, period, but that particular short story stuck in my craw and was my you and me, we're fucking done professionally moment.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(con't.)
[info]franzen
2013-02-12 06:05 am UTC (link)
David Foster Wallace's Brief Interviews With Hideous Men is the Rape Power Hour, with men talking about women and rape at length to an unknown narrator. Interspersed with these segments are a few actually good short pieces, including a vignette that's stunningly beautiful and elegiac. (That's at the front of the book. It goes downhill after.) This is also the book with the short fiction piece that's based on Elizabeth Wurtzel (and, man, that piece is nasty, not that I'm a particular fan of Wurtzel's). There "hideous men" portions are bad -- one has a man interrogating the (presumably female) researcher and getting abusive at the idea that rape and abuse is an inherent bad, because the woman might become a better person for it. It's much, much worse than my paraphrase can render it, because I've done my best to delete that from my mind; I was triggered while reading, so not much stuck. The final entry in the book is a never-ending monologue from a man in which he details how a woman he once slept with was kidnapped and raped by a serial killer but managed to live and how that enabled her to "save" him. I was hoping the serial killer would show up to finish Monologue Guy off, but no such luck.

David Foster Wallace can't write female characters, period, and his interviews and biographies do not make him more sympathetic. I realize that most people consider him to be Saint DFW (and have no love for Franzen), but Wallace -- comes across as a genuine misogynist in his interviews; I don't think it's an act on his part. Franzen has many faults as a writer and a human being, the gender problems in Freedom killed my ability to enjoy the book in total, but I've read his entire body of work and I have yet to see something that creeps me out. Franzen disappoints me (as does McEwan, in some works), but DFW is ... a truly special case of "entitled privileged white dude saves world, uses privilege to deal massive damage in real life and in his work."

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: (con't.)
[info]khym_chanur
2013-02-12 06:19 pm UTC (link)
"elegiac". Learn something new every day.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]tunxeh
2013-02-12 04:29 am UTC (link)
Does Una in Stardust count as not a fetish fic?

(To be fair, many of the examples I can find of female writers writing about enslaved males also come off as a bit fetishy. C.J. Cherryh's Cyteen is a case in point, much as I like it.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]pyratejenni
2013-02-17 12:46 pm UTC (link)
Cherryh's always had a fetish about enslaved/powerless men. Look at the Morgaine Cycle.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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