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mad_teacup
2013-02-22 04:33 am UTC (link)

So true about Watson. I have to say I think Holmes is a huge dick about women though. From The Sign of Four, beginning of chapter 9 ("A Break in the Chain"): "'I would not tell them too much,' said Holmes. Women are never to be entirely trusted - not the best of them.'"

Then Watson, like a boss: "I did not pause to argue over this atrocious sentiment."

DEAR SHERLOCKFEN PLEASE LISTEN TO WATSON THANK YOU.

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	ekaterinv 2013-02-22 04:38 am UTC (link)
	Holmes was totally a douchecanoe about women. He just wasn't as bad as these people. That's not to excuse him, it's to say that these people are incredibly bad. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

mad_teacup
2013-02-22 04:44 am UTC (link)

And it just boggles me as to why? I'm really a spectator when it comes to fandoms but there is just this crazy rampant misogyny in so many of these "similar" fandoms. I mean, SPN and the RPS tinhats, it's this crazy misogyny fest based on this show with two bromancing men (or however to describe this~) and then all of this internalized misogyny comes blazing on-fire 5600C out of every nook and cranny. It pisses me off about Sherlock fans especially. All you have to do is read to see he's a total ass about this. Let's not do that. Let's be mindful of that as we engage with this material. NO EARTH LOGIC NO STOP

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the_sun_is_up
2013-02-22 09:43 pm UTC (link)

show with two bromancing men

Yeah, that's the reason why. Whenever you have a fandom that overwhelmingly ships slash, it tends to foster/uncover a lot of misogyny, partly because any female characters (or girlfriends of actors) in the vicinity are obviously just obstacles to the boysex and must be hated on, and partly because of the culture of penis-worship, pretty-boy-worship, and idealizing m/m romances as superior to all other romance.

See also: SPN, Gundam Wing, etc.

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	ekaterinv 2013-02-22 10:43 pm UTC (link)
	See also: ancient Athens. (Reply to this)(Parent)

My tl;dr

mad_teacup
2013-02-23 12:06 am UTC (link)

Allow me to teal deer a moment. I just find this fascinating and bizarre. A lot of the time you get the supposed heterosexual male or female characters that the fans sort of project onto, like for example, male fans imagining themselves as a potential relationship partner for a female anime character. There's this whole mindset that if the character on the show isn't in a relationship, they are "accessible" to the fans as personal imagination fodder. There have been these absurd outcries when characters are "discovered" to have been in relationships, or perhaps they hook up in canon. I remember a specific example where a female anime character supposedly had a tryst or something in her past, and male fans erupted into frothing incoherent rage, as she was no longer an accessible virgin in their minds. I'm referencing male fans a lot here, but it's mainly because those stories are ones I'm remembering the most quickly.

Basically, I just think there is this interesting thing going on with slash fans—esp. this kind of slash, where it isn't on the periphery but front and center in the fandom. It's not that the fans go berserk over, for example, SPN actors having girlfriends because they imagine themselves as their girlfriends. It's that the actors are in luv, and the fandom their knights, defending their sacred closeted relationship. I just find that so interesting, it's like this movement from the isolated "I" ("I imagine X character as accessible to me personally, even though everybody else is having their own personal fantasies") to this collective "we" ("HOW DARE YOU INSINUATE X and X MALE CHARACTERS AREN'T TOGETHER YOU DUMB BITCH, THEIR LOVE IS PURE, WE WILL DEFEND THEM!!!!") which totes along crazy amounts of misogyny. If the characters were heterosexually accessible (?) would the hivemind misogyny be as rampant? IT IS JUST SO CRAZY HOW POTENTIALLY CANON SLASH RELATIONSHIPS INVITE RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF MISOGYNY INTO THEIR WANKING ARSENAL.

And you have to wonder, even though there's the usual stupid objectification going on whether fictional character/RPS, there's this weird undercurrent with this type of fandom, that the fandom collectively OWNS the relationship. And like they have the idea that the best way to protect their MxM turf/eliminate threats is to target other perceived-female fans by reducing them to categories that should be shunned. ("She's a dumb bitch.") ("What a fucking whore!") She's a "bitch," just ignore her, she's clearly malicious and her questining of the sacred relationship is meaningless! Everyone remain calm, this is what "bitches" do! She's not a person like us people, she's a bitch! THEY'RE ALL JUST JEALOUS OF THEIR LOVE.

And then it sort of breeds into everything, so it's not just the relationship it's like, the series itself, because on the tumblr tag, it's not like SHERLOCKxJAWN DON'T QUESTION, it's like YOU WOULD DARE TROLL SHERLOCKFEN YOU DUMB BITCH?

It's like, wow, okay...THIS IS SO CRAZY.

I think I could just keep rambling I...I have no idea how to cure this.

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	Re: My tl;dr singe 2013-02-23 01:37 am UTC (link)
	There is no cure for this. It was a real 'thing' in the Lord of the Rings fandom back in the day and I'm disturbed by its perpetuation. I wonder if any of this garbage will survive a hundred years from now and what future historians are going to think of it? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: My tl;dr full_metal_ox 2013-02-23 10:10 pm UTC (link)
	For your edification: this Rowena-bashing Ivanhoe fanfic, circa 1850, by a disguntled Wilbecca 4EVA! partisan: http://www.mask.rozet.ru/Literature-Blackmask/British-Irish/Thackeray_William_Makepeace/Rebecca_and_Rowena.pdf (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My tl;dr -

singe, 2013-02-25 04:39 pm UTC

	Re: My tl;dr cmdr_zoom 2013-02-23 03:15 am UTC (link)
	mm, that was good teal deer. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: My tl;dr iczer6 2013-02-23 03:21 am UTC (link)
	I can't help but think the ideas stem from the same source but come out in different ways. Both groups want to be special but for the male fans it's by dating the character, for the female fans it's protecting them. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: My tl;dr pyratejenni 2013-02-24 04:31 pm UTC (link)
	"If I can't have him (character or actor) in real life, no one can." (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: My tl;dr -

iczer6, 2013-02-24 08:38 pm UTC

Re: My tl;dr

uldihaa
2013-02-23 04:14 am UTC (link)

I remember a specific example where a female anime character supposedly had a tryst or something in her past, and male fans erupted into frothing incoherent rage, as she was no longer an accessible virgin in their minds.

Ah, I think I know the exact series you're talking about. Kannagi: Crazy Shrine Maidens, right? I have my suspicions as to why these male fans react this way*.

As to the women that do this to MxM pairings, I find it rather interesting that they almost always define the relationship in stereotypical male/female terms and concepts. The fact that they fiercely debate who is a "top" and who is a "bottom" shows they have no idea what real gay relationships are like. So in a way, it's still them projecting themselves into it, but as a gay man rather than a woman. Or not, I'm just tossing that out there.

*I suspect that most of those that had a complete meltdown, especially the first ones, are themselves either virgins or are extremely inexperienced. They prefer a virgin because then there's no pressure to perform well; they aren't "competing" against a past lover.

Or put another way, most virgins prefer other virgins over experienced lovers.

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	Re: My tl;dr eevee 2013-02-23 11:15 am UTC (link)
	Crazy Shrine Maidens I actually can't remember if that was the actual title or a joke, but either way, I laughed out disproportionately loud. (That whole brouhaha also inspired me to never, ever make any of my female MCs a virgin, just in case I ever get the chance to piss off some righteous otaku-tachi) (Reply to this)(Parent)

My tl;dr continues -

mad_teacup, 2013-02-23 05:36 pm UTC

Re: My tl;dr continues -

sparkysrevenge, 2013-02-24 07:10 pm UTC

Re: My tl;dr continues -

adevyish, 2013-02-25 10:48 am UTC

Re: My tl;dr

full_metal_ox
2013-02-23 10:17 pm UTC (link)

A lot of the time you get the supposed heterosexual male or female characters that the fans sort of project onto, like for example, male fans imagining themselves as a potential relationship partner for a female anime character.

Note, too, that guys tend not to be unrelentingly Stu-shamed for creating OCs who might in some way conceivably represent authorial wish-fulfillment.

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Re: My tl;dr

the_sun_is_up
2013-02-25 07:26 pm UTC (link)

IT IS JUST SO CRAZY HOW POTENTIALLY CANON SLASH RELATIONSHIPS INVITE RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF MISOGYNY INTO THEIR WANKING ARSENAL

Ah, but that's the sticking point: they're not potentially canon. In my experience, shows with actual canonical m/m couples tend to have less of the slash-related misogyny, I guess because the fangirls no longer view the female characters as a threat? Whereas in canons like SPN, LOTR, Harry Potter, Naruto, Gundam Wing, etc, it's clear that the preferred slash pairings will be forever teased at but will never be canon, and that fact tends to drive the fangirls a little batty. And actually, I've seen the reverse happen — fandoms that are heavy on the femslash tend to also bash the male characters a lot, again because the canon in question usually has tons of lesbian subtext but no actual text.

I have no idea how to cure this

You can't. Because (in my experience) fandoms like this tend to attract women who are already misogynistic, and they're naturally drawn to a community that will cater to those beliefs.

a female anime character supposedly had a tryst or something in her past, and male fans erupted into frothing incoherent rage, as she was no longer an accessible virgin in their minds

LOL Kannagi. LOL moe fanboys.

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	sorchar 2013-02-23 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	It makes me sad, really. I'm pleased that so far, Avengers fandom has avoided doing that with Natasha (though poor Pepper has gotten some fic hate.) Of course, I wouldn't put it past Natasha to actually become real, show up at someone's house, and kick their ass for pulling that shit. So maybe fear is keeping people in check. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	puipui 2013-02-22 07:55 am UTC (link)
	Then Watson, like a boss: "I did not pause to argue over this atrocious sentiment." This is why it always annoys me when adaptations make Watson the stupid one. Watson is supposed to be the the sane one, people! Pay attention! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

beccastareyes
2013-02-22 02:44 pm UTC (link)

They can't write Sherlock Holmes with amazing observation and deductive skills, so they compensate by making everyone near him suddenly get a case of the stupids?

Watson is worse at being a detective than Holmes, but that is not saying much, given it's Sherlock Holmes. It's like saying 'I am not as good a physicist as Stephen Hawking': true, but tells you almost nothing about my actual abilities, since that covers a range from 'innumerate' to 'a solid, skilled physicist'.

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	lady_ganesh 2013-02-22 05:07 pm UTC (link)
	They can't write Sherlock Holmes with amazing observation and deductive skills, so they compensate by making everyone near him suddenly get a case of the stupids? By Jove, I think you've got it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sorchar 2013-02-23 08:26 pm UTC (link)
	Icon love! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	beccastareyes 2013-02-23 09:06 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sorchar 2013-02-23 08:27 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, and also, yes to everything in this comment. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	abharding 2013-02-26 01:05 am UTC (link)
	People either forget or are unaware that Watson was the audience/reader surrogate. He asked the questions that the reader wanted and or needed to in order to understand what was going on. He is even the troupe-namer on the TV Troupes website. (I don't know how to link - so I am not going to to.) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	mcity 2013-02-23 09:18 pm UTC (link)
	The Ritchie films pretty much did that. Watson was clearly no intellectual slouch himself, as demonstrated in the second film. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	community_care 2013-02-25 12:16 am UTC (link)
	And way before them (and many times better) the Granada series. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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