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My tl;dr

mad_teacup
2013-02-23 12:06 am UTC (link)

Allow me to teal deer a moment. I just find this fascinating and bizarre. A lot of the time you get the supposed heterosexual male or female characters that the fans sort of project onto, like for example, male fans imagining themselves as a potential relationship partner for a female anime character. There's this whole mindset that if the character on the show isn't in a relationship, they are "accessible" to the fans as personal imagination fodder. There have been these absurd outcries when characters are "discovered" to have been in relationships, or perhaps they hook up in canon. I remember a specific example where a female anime character supposedly had a tryst or something in her past, and male fans erupted into frothing incoherent rage, as she was no longer an accessible virgin in their minds. I'm referencing male fans a lot here, but it's mainly because those stories are ones I'm remembering the most quickly.

Basically, I just think there is this interesting thing going on with slash fans—esp. this kind of slash, where it isn't on the periphery but front and center in the fandom. It's not that the fans go berserk over, for example, SPN actors having girlfriends because they imagine themselves as their girlfriends. It's that the actors are in luv, and the fandom their knights, defending their sacred closeted relationship. I just find that so interesting, it's like this movement from the isolated "I" ("I imagine X character as accessible to me personally, even though everybody else is having their own personal fantasies") to this collective "we" ("HOW DARE YOU INSINUATE X and X MALE CHARACTERS AREN'T TOGETHER YOU DUMB BITCH, THEIR LOVE IS PURE, WE WILL DEFEND THEM!!!!") which totes along crazy amounts of misogyny. If the characters were heterosexually accessible (?) would the hivemind misogyny be as rampant? IT IS JUST SO CRAZY HOW POTENTIALLY CANON SLASH RELATIONSHIPS INVITE RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF MISOGYNY INTO THEIR WANKING ARSENAL.

And you have to wonder, even though there's the usual stupid objectification going on whether fictional character/RPS, there's this weird undercurrent with this type of fandom, that the fandom collectively OWNS the relationship. And like they have the idea that the best way to protect their MxM turf/eliminate threats is to target other perceived-female fans by reducing them to categories that should be shunned. ("She's a dumb bitch.") ("What a fucking whore!") She's a "bitch," just ignore her, she's clearly malicious and her questining of the sacred relationship is meaningless! Everyone remain calm, this is what "bitches" do! She's not a person like us people, she's a bitch! THEY'RE ALL JUST JEALOUS OF THEIR LOVE.

And then it sort of breeds into everything, so it's not just the relationship it's like, the series itself, because on the tumblr tag, it's not like SHERLOCKxJAWN DON'T QUESTION, it's like YOU WOULD DARE TROLL SHERLOCKFEN YOU DUMB BITCH?

It's like, wow, okay...THIS IS SO CRAZY.

I think I could just keep rambling I...I have no idea how to cure this.

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	Re: My tl;dr singe 2013-02-23 01:37 am UTC (link)
	There is no cure for this. It was a real 'thing' in the Lord of the Rings fandom back in the day and I'm disturbed by its perpetuation. I wonder if any of this garbage will survive a hundred years from now and what future historians are going to think of it? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: My tl;dr full_metal_ox 2013-02-23 10:10 pm UTC (link)
	For your edification: this Rowena-bashing Ivanhoe fanfic, circa 1850, by a disguntled Wilbecca 4EVA! partisan: http://www.mask.rozet.ru/Literature-Blackmask/British-Irish/Thackeray_William_Makepeace/Rebecca_and_Rowena.pdf (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: My tl;dr singe 2013-02-25 04:39 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, lord. Well, I hope historians enjoy themselves, then. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: My tl;dr cmdr_zoom 2013-02-23 03:15 am UTC (link)
	mm, that was good teal deer. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: My tl;dr iczer6 2013-02-23 03:21 am UTC (link)
	I can't help but think the ideas stem from the same source but come out in different ways. Both groups want to be special but for the male fans it's by dating the character, for the female fans it's protecting them. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: My tl;dr pyratejenni 2013-02-24 04:31 pm UTC (link)
	"If I can't have him (character or actor) in real life, no one can." (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: My tl;dr iczer6 2013-02-24 08:38 pm UTC (link)
	Or 'only the person I approve of can have him'. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: My tl;dr

uldihaa
2013-02-23 04:14 am UTC (link)

I remember a specific example where a female anime character supposedly had a tryst or something in her past, and male fans erupted into frothing incoherent rage, as she was no longer an accessible virgin in their minds.

Ah, I think I know the exact series you're talking about. Kannagi: Crazy Shrine Maidens, right? I have my suspicions as to why these male fans react this way*.

As to the women that do this to MxM pairings, I find it rather interesting that they almost always define the relationship in stereotypical male/female terms and concepts. The fact that they fiercely debate who is a "top" and who is a "bottom" shows they have no idea what real gay relationships are like. So in a way, it's still them projecting themselves into it, but as a gay man rather than a woman. Or not, I'm just tossing that out there.

*I suspect that most of those that had a complete meltdown, especially the first ones, are themselves either virgins or are extremely inexperienced. They prefer a virgin because then there's no pressure to perform well; they aren't "competing" against a past lover.

Or put another way, most virgins prefer other virgins over experienced lovers.

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	Re: My tl;dr eevee 2013-02-23 11:15 am UTC (link)
	Crazy Shrine Maidens I actually can't remember if that was the actual title or a joke, but either way, I laughed out disproportionately loud. (That whole brouhaha also inspired me to never, ever make any of my female MCs a virgin, just in case I ever get the chance to piss off some righteous otaku-tachi) (Reply to this)(Parent)

My tl;dr continues

mad_teacup
2013-02-23 05:36 pm UTC (link)

I just looked up Kannagi, and yeah, that was it! I remember what the character looked like. And actually, that wank made me think of this BBC story about a female Japanese pop star. She spent a night with her boyfriend and was caught doing it, so she shaved all her hair off in penance for this. The article mentioned this same phenomenon:

They [the girls in the band] portray an image of cuteness known as "kawaii", and have become a huge phenomenon both in Japan and increasingly in other Asian countries, correspondents say.

The condition for being part of such a successful act is that the girls must not date boys, so as not to shatter their fans' illusions.

AKB48's management office said Minegishi had been demoted to a trainee team as punishment "for causing a nuisance to the fans".

[bolded stuff mine]

Obviously this is terrible and disgusting, even that Minegishi felt like she had to do this...and she's not even a fictional character, she's a real person. It's like, wow... I actually wrote about this in my LJ and I still feel like that sums up how I feel about this:

"I couldn't even watch this video [linked in the BBC article—Minegishi crying and apologizing to fans]. Reading this article made me want to cry. WTF? [insert above quote] ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?! LOL OKAY JAPAN, YOU JUST KEEP FORCING GIRLS INTO THE POSITION OF HUMAN BODY PILLOWS. BECAUSE I MEAN FANS WOULD KILL THEMSELVES IF THEY COULDN'T ~LEGIT-LY~ IMAGINE THEMSELVES FUCKING THESE GIRLS. THEY WOULDN'T BE ACCESSIBLE ANYMORE IF THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, REAL GIRLS. EWWW REAL GIRLS YOU'RE HARSHING MY SQUEE! ...Please die in a fire."

Everyone please stop objectifyiiiing~

I also got the sense with the Kannagi thing, that it wasn't only the threat of experience (either from the character/from her potential past lover) but the very real sense she was now dirtied... I think that was all over their posts too. Like, no! This isn't true! X-chan is PURE!! SHE ISN'T A DIRTY DIRTY WHORE. But if she is I will kick her to the curb! I'm crying into my body pillow right nao!!

Ughhh.

That's so true about the MxM pairings. It really drives me crazy how rampant that is. So maybe there's a kind of "exchange" going on. Projection into the MxM fantasy, but then this sort of...again weird...collective cropping up around it. Dang, why is everybody that hasn't been "officially" initiated into the gang-like hivemind such a threat? ARE YOU INSECURE, SHERLOCK FANS. INSECURE THAT YOUR SHOW ISN'T #1?!

I am so drugged on cold medicine. I apologize for rambling!

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	Re: My tl;dr continues sparkysrevenge 2013-02-24 07:10 pm UTC (link)
	That whole bit with Minegishi makes me all kinds of angry. I don't care if you think they're hot. They're real people and should be allowed to get real boyfriends or girlfriends, c'mon! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: My tl;dr continues adevyish 2013-02-25 10:48 am UTC (link)
	I saw someone I know post about Minegishi with the "don't stop hating on AKB48/the fandom don't you see she's doing this because she loves the fans" and I wanted to throw things. Ugh :( (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: My tl;dr

full_metal_ox
2013-02-23 10:17 pm UTC (link)

A lot of the time you get the supposed heterosexual male or female characters that the fans sort of project onto, like for example, male fans imagining themselves as a potential relationship partner for a female anime character.

Note, too, that guys tend not to be unrelentingly Stu-shamed for creating OCs who might in some way conceivably represent authorial wish-fulfillment.

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Re: My tl;dr

the_sun_is_up
2013-02-25 07:26 pm UTC (link)

IT IS JUST SO CRAZY HOW POTENTIALLY CANON SLASH RELATIONSHIPS INVITE RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF MISOGYNY INTO THEIR WANKING ARSENAL

Ah, but that's the sticking point: they're not potentially canon. In my experience, shows with actual canonical m/m couples tend to have less of the slash-related misogyny, I guess because the fangirls no longer view the female characters as a threat? Whereas in canons like SPN, LOTR, Harry Potter, Naruto, Gundam Wing, etc, it's clear that the preferred slash pairings will be forever teased at but will never be canon, and that fact tends to drive the fangirls a little batty. And actually, I've seen the reverse happen — fandoms that are heavy on the femslash tend to also bash the male characters a lot, again because the canon in question usually has tons of lesbian subtext but no actual text.

I have no idea how to cure this

You can't. Because (in my experience) fandoms like this tend to attract women who are already misogynistic, and they're naturally drawn to a community that will cater to those beliefs.

a female anime character supposedly had a tryst or something in her past, and male fans erupted into frothing incoherent rage, as she was no longer an accessible virgin in their minds

LOL Kannagi. LOL moe fanboys.

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