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it looks like redcoats, but it isn't ([info]redcoast) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2013-05-05 16:34:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:accuracy is for tools, at least no one's knotting, burn baby burn, cons, fandom: supernatural, homophobia, i hate you and i hate you, i swear i will turn this comm around, lost the lulz, mod has a headache, oh hurrah the daily dot, passive-aggression with tags, person: jensen ackles, sex police, still not funny, this is not funny, troll or dumbass?, tumblr is witchcraft, wanking inside the house, what the shit is this?

What happened to SPN's bi pride?
Jensen Ackles is rather famous for being uncomfortable discussing the homoerotic subtext of Supernatural, despite that this subtext is actually text. I mean, there was an episode where Dean and Sam went to a Supernatural fan convention with a panel called "The Homoerotic Subtext of Supernatural." (Yeah, that really happened. It's a weird show.) Also, he's been doing this for nine years, so come on, man.

Anyway ... hee. Sorry, I rewatched that video and I'm laughing at how accurate it is, except that the fans should be about 95% female.

Anyway, most of the notable cast members (Misha Collins, Jim Beaver, Mark Shepard, etc.) have proven to be open about discussing gay stuff, but Ackles is allergic to it or something and usually refuses to talk about it, perhaps because when he does talk about it, he's pretty much a dick.

At today's Creation Entertainment's Supernatural convention in New Jersey, a fan, first in line at the joint Jarpad/Jackles panel, asked a question that began, "I love your character becoming more comfortable with himself over the season. I'm bisexual and -- " at which point she was drowned out by boos and groans from the crowd. You can watch the exchange here:

Jensen replied, "I'm really confused. Really? The first question?" then something about the East Coast, then, "Don't ruin it for everybody, now." The fan replied, "I didn't mean it as disrespectful at all." Jensen: "I still don't know what the question was. I'm gonna pretend I don't know what the question was. So I'm gonna take my cue and move on."

The fan who recorded it writes:

I’m really upset about this. My response to the girl’s question was of exasperation which you can hear (I say “Aye Dios Mio.”) She DOES start asking about the subtext in the show. When I heard the crowd collectively booing though, I got really uncomfortable with my own response and also theirs. When I heard Jensen’s response, I was stunned into silence and didn’t record, take pics, or really even hear the questions for a bit.

You cannot see this in the video, but I was on the side the girl was on, very close. As soon as everyone starts booing, Clif [Jensen's bodyguard], who was standing right near her, goes up to her and began having a conversation with her. She stood to the side for a bit after she stepped away from the mic (which was right after she said “I meant no disrespect”) and I thought perhaps Clif had heard all of her question and was going to let her ask or she was going to ask a new question, but after a bit she walked away.

On the way out of the panel, my friend said she saw the girl in the ballroom, wiping at her face. I didn’t see her myself, but I don’t think you need to be a genius to guess she was upset.
Fans are shocked, both at the booing immediately following someone saying they're gay bi, and Jensen's response. There's some rather depressing replies like this (warning, autoplay music): "I feel like my heart is breaking. Being Bi was never something I thought I would dislike about myself, but this is just really uncomfortable for me. I just… I wish I didn’t read/watch this. I’d rather not know."

Not everyone is mad at Jensen. Some fans defend him, like this guy, who says she deserved it because she was told not to ask a shipping question and she asked a shipping question. And someone else said she should be slapped. Cue sarcasm:
OH NO. A STRAIGHT CIS MALE WAS MADE UNCOMFORTABLE AT THE PROSPECT THAT HIS CHARACTER MIGHT BE—GASP—A HOMOSEXUAL? Clearly we should dogpile and humiliate a young bisexual teenage girl. Because she obviously doesn’t know how hard it is to be a privileged white man in this day and age and will never know the discomfort of being mistaken for a dirty homoseuxal.
Calico-kat has some really interesting analysis of how Creation runs cons and asks why the show is can talk about Wincest fanfic during episodes but the fans are not allowed to ask about it? Or as she puts it, "Y U MAEK SHO U NO LET US TALK ABT SHO?"

Creation Con announces that there will be NO MORE SHIPPING QUESTIONS and anyone who defies this rule will be tackled by ninjas. Shipping is ruined now. YOU RUINED SHIPPING.

Turns out, the fan wasn't even asking about shipping. She wanted to ask Jensen if he would participate in the It Gets Better project. So that's depressing.

Edit: The consensus was that this wasn't funny. Sorry about that. I obviously made an error in judgment yesterday. Also, some people said this was triggering/upsetting with regards to bi/homophobia, so be warned.

Edit 2: holy shit. That's a nice painting.


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[info]franzen
2013-05-07 10:21 am UTC (link)
I wonder what would happen if you plugged the data into SPSS and cross-tabbed for "asexual ("I reject third wave feminism's perceived pro-sex attitude and want you to know I'm special, now give me access to queer spaces, because the fact that other people have sex is oppressing me" -- you know, the mutant strain that's the MRSA of Tumblr). I wouldn't be surprised if -- on Tumblr only, mind, not fandom altogether -- you saw some interesting correlations. And by "interesting," I mean "null finding."

Supernatural has been on the air for so long and has such a long record of heterosexism and misogyny in the show (not even touching what goes on in fan sectors) that anyone actually watching the show can't reasonably claim that it's progressive. Which may be why this is horrible but also unsurprising. Jensen is a dick, water is wet, and reading and/or writing slash is not evidence of acceptance, willingness to be an ally on LGTBQ issues, etc. Given the show's reputation, I'd be more inclined to put my guard up if someone I met started gushing, because if the misogyny didn't bother you, we probably have very different "okay, no, this is fucked up, and I'm DONE" thresholds. And before anyone cries "but plenty of classic works have problematic elements," check: context and the fact that it's fucking Supernatural, not a Dostoevsky novel.

The fact that this happened in SPN does not surprise me. But if this isn't enough for fans to hit their own "you and me, we are fucking DONE" limit and find a new fandom, then I really don't know what's left. You can keep throwing your energy into that sinkhole, but after eight fucking years, it's time to wake up, accept the problem of sunk costs, and quit while you're losing less.

The relationship between the show's fans and agents of the show itself is like listening to someone with an abusive partner engage in magical thinking about how everything means love. Except IT'S A FUCKING TV SHOW, it's a one-way relationship, and there's no traumatic bonding and no risk in leaving (a TV show cannot find your address and send threatening messages). So if you're a fan, you stop. Stop giving SPN your money. Stop acting like this is new. Stop tolerating the godawful behavior of the actors. Stop trying to pretend this show is something it isn't. Stop enabling. You can see this through to the end, but you're never going to get what you want. The sooner you accept that you're being used, the better off you'll be.

... yeah, that got random. I think a lot of the straight female fans who support slash in SPN are okay with slash but want to protect the poor actors from questions because they assume that they're tolerant but SPN enforces this dynamic -- the show is never going to present strong female or queer characters, so if you're inside that discourse, it's harder to see that all that energy and talk about slash in SPN has nothing to do with challenging your own problematic beliefs and taking real world action. You subconsciously know that all of this is futile, which makes the fandom "safe," and now we see the norm in action: bisexuality is fine in fic, but bisexual people are still an Other; you might take the fun away and force us to remember that this show is problematic by threatening Jensen with the words "I'm bisexual," and in that moment, you have to decide whether your identification with "SPN fans" is stronger than your refusal to deal with this shit. You have about half a second and it's unconscious, but since we know a norm is in effect when something that should (logically) happen doesn't, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the fans there never even thought of walking out.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]argylespy
2013-05-07 09:05 pm UTC (link)
the show is never going to present strong female or queer characters

Not arguing with everything else you've said, but you haven't seen the episodes with Felicia Day, have you?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]themadscientist
2013-05-09 03:38 am UTC (link)
They've had queer characters... it's just that they kill them off. Actually, SPN kills everyone off but then get too paranoid about fan reaction to keep them dead (seriously - how many times have they killed Castiel just to make excuses to keep him around because Misha Collins is popular?) Bobby was arguably a victim of this in S7 when a large portion of online fans on TWoP (which the writers do go to for immediate viewer reaction) stating how he was holding the boys back and was mean to Dean,

It's a weird, weird cycle of:
1) Do something fanserrvicey
2) Notice that fanservicey gets reception and recognition
3) Play off the fanservicey-ness
4) Get even more recognition
5) Realize the fanservice is potentially damaging to the story, characters, or reputation of said show
6) Back off and negate the fanservice
7) Notice the fan riot so panic
8) Return to step 1

I've never seen quite the same level of circle-jerk between fans and show as Supernatural and it's really disturbing in some ways. The writers will perfectly happy play around with jokes about sexuality and give wink-wink-nudge-nudge to fandom but then play dumb about things the fans are reacting to (or readjust the show whenever a group gets too grumpy - see Dean's "lack of storyline" a la S4 or Sam's soullessness of S6)

And likewise, fans will get egocentric because the show is acknowledging them! The show is catering to them! The show will validate them!! only to get furious when their vision is not met.

If there was any example to use why creators should never, EVER react with fans until a product is finished... it's Supernatural.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cmdr_zoom
2013-05-09 04:12 pm UTC (link)
with the most recent My Little Pony as another, IMO.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]themadscientist
2013-05-09 11:16 pm UTC (link)
Jfc it is not even that I mind Bronies

Its the entitlement complex that irritates the scheisse out of me

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sepiamagpie
2013-05-10 03:56 am UTC (link)
Okay, shut the hell up about asexuals. Very few of them are cis hetero-leaning individuals and I'm not interested in seeing that shit clog up fandom wank.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]phosfate
2013-05-10 11:35 pm UTC (link)
The relationship between the show's fans and agents of the show itself is like listening to someone with an abusive partner engage in magical thinking about how everything means love.

Imagining better from a mediocre television show is just like enduring long-term spousal abuse. Yes.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]tez
2013-05-11 12:46 am UTC (link)
So I have to ask. Are you just actively trying to give yourself carpal tunnel syndrome, or do you really believe we read and give a crap about the self-righteous ego-stroking faux-intellectual bullshit you spew?

Also.

The relationship between the show's fans and agents of the show itself is like listening to someone with an abusive partner engage in magical thinking about how everything means love.

Ex-fucking-scuse me? You want to explain to me why you thought it was a good idea to trivialize abusive relationships like this?

Go on. I'm listening.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]puipui
2013-05-11 01:12 am UTC (link)
I can't believe that no one has asked you for your thoughts on yaoi yet. I feel like we're falling down on the job here.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]sandglass
2013-05-11 05:26 am UTC (link)
We're all too afraid she'll answer.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]puipui
2013-05-11 07:46 am UTC (link)
Fair point, well made.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]damien
2013-06-14 02:06 pm UTC (link)
I stopped reading as soon as I hit the asexual hate. What the fuck is wrong with you.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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