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Moira Katson ([info]demonbean) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2013-09-05 22:17:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:author entitlement, awards, books/authors, person: john ringo, person: john scalzi

A Wank of Two Authors
A wank that is somewhat pan-fandom - Science Fiction in general!

First piece of background: John Scalzi is an author and, at present, he was until recently (thanks, sgaana!) the president of the SFWA. In the past few months, he has been a very vocal supporter of anti-harassment policies at SFF conventions, and in general has been a supporter of having women and minorities represented in SFF. This annoys some people. (Warning: this wank, while it has not in itself veered into unfunny territory, is between two authors - and to some extent their fanbases - who stand on very different sides of the "what (if anything) should be done to ensure equality for people of different genders/sexual orientations/races/creeds." While going over facebook and twitter to research this particular kerfluffle, I encountered some of that in other posts. None of it is linked here, but it is in this general section of the blaggertubes.)

As a second piece of background, the Hugo Awards celebrate the best of Science Fiction, and are widely considered one of the most prestigious awards an SFF author can win. While highly prestigious, however, the awards are not immune from the general principle of award-giving, which is that first someone wins, and then someone else bitches about it.

All caught up? Good.

On Sunday, the winners of the 2013 Hugo Awards were announced. John Scalzi won the award for best novel with Redshirts, a comedic novel about the unusually high mortality rates of starship employees wearing crimson attire. As usual, the win touched off some debate around the quality of the various nominees. Some people enjoyed Redshirts, others did not like it so well. Fairly standard. The Guardian has covered some of the differing points of view here, most of which are centered around the merits of the books and the voting system.

John Ringo, on the other hand, posted the following:

If anyone has been wondering why Scalzi has been picking the rather stupid fights he's been picking lately:

[link to Hugo Awards announcement]


Scalzi, either directly in response to Ringo, in response to some other criticism, or just as a general response to the world in general, posts on his blog about the award, and includes the following:

* Likewise, as is also tradition whenever a new winner of a Best Novel Hugo is announced, there are people who are heralding Redshirts as evidence that the Hugo voting process is corrupt/confused/irrelevant/a sign of the impending apocalypse. I don’t take this personally because a) I am well aware that not everyone is going to like everything I write, and that this goes double for Redshirts, which seems to have the greatest range of responses to it of any book I’ve written, b) someone would complain no matter what and who won, because the Internet is vasty and noisy, and for some people, something they don’t like winning an award is clearly evidence of systematic problems and/or conspiracy, rather than simply a popular vote of a particular group of voters not reflecting their own personal preferences.

My response to this is, as always: That’s fine. And in a larger sense, a vote no one complains about correlates very highly with a vote no one cares about. I’m happy to see people care about the Hugos, even if it’s to be annoyed with my book as a winner. With that said, the fact is this year I won the award, now it’s mine, and I’m not giving it back. So they’ll just have to deal.

(Now, there are people who are angry I won because they don’t like me personally. To them I say: Ha! Ha! Ha! Sucks to be you, dude.)

This touches off a debate on twitter, including (but certainly not limited to) the following. Feel free to add to these highlights, as my twitter-fu is by no means expert. (Which is why a majority come from Scalzi himself.) Scalzi is accused of pandering, Ringo is accused of pandering, Chris Kluwe makes an appearance.

Just because John Ringo is being a total ass to me doesn't mean you might not like his books. Some to try for free: [link to free books]

@Scalzi: Reading your post that was referenced, never going to buy any of YOUR books again. You're a deluded hypocritical racist little shit.

From Scalzi: "Highlight of the day so far: Dude with Hitler Emoji Twitter icon telling me I was racist and he would never read my books. I thought: Good"

Also from Scalzi: Seriously, though. Poor spelling does not make you wrong, but consistently poor spelling does undermine rhetorical credibility. Spellcheck!

The problem is, the Internet makes it seem like you SHOULD read the comments. But then you do, and you say, "YEAH, I forgot. Dammit."

HTML has totally failed me, so here are a few good links for twitter: Scalzi, Chris Kluwe and, courtesy of </b></a>[info]duraniedrama, John Ringo's page. (There's some potential for unfunny there.) You can find more tweets under the hashtag #womendestroySF. (Lightspeed has announced a "Women Destroying SF" special edition.)

The wank builds up, with Ringo declaring that his wife is hotter and his hair is better than Scalzi's, until at some point in this mess, Ringo posts to his facebook page again.

Scalzi was pissing me off even before getting a Hugo for a novel so remarkably unremarkable it would barely have made it to paperback in the 1970s. Nothing against it, it's a fun, simple, mindless, read from all I've gathered. But it's not exactly Stranger in a Strange Land or Nightfall.

[....]

Which is where we start to see the issues with Scalzi suddenly not so much 'coming out of the closet' but making a splash on a variety of hot-button issues that really don't sit well with his RETAIL market. The people who actually BUY the books over the counter as opposed to market, sell and even buy them for distribution. The more books you can get a bookstore to buy, the more likely you are to sell them. So being the poster child for your commercial people is a good thing.

Orson Scott Card is brought up in the comments, but less than you might suspect.

John Ringo's politics get further attention when Scalzi links us to a review of one of Ringo's books. The review can simply be referred to as OH JOHN RINGO NO, which proceeds to become a catchphrase in the ensuing twitter comments.

This wank, it must be said, is far from over, as no one has yet flounced. Twitter continues to explode, and Scalzi continues to post to twitter, and all in all, the wank has continued merrily on for the span of a few days. Enjoy!

EDIT THE FIRST: Courtesy of tunxeh (thanks!), we have Scalzi's latest blog post. It is, as noted, worth it even if all you look at is his U MAD BRO? macro. Since I can't seem to embed, here: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/09/06/some-final-hugo-related-thoughts/



(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-09-06 07:18 am UTC (link)
it's not exactly Stranger in a Strange Land

This is supposed to be a bad thing?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]white_tean
2013-09-06 07:49 am UTC (link)
Yes, I would like the time spent reading that book back.
While there's an interesting concept about alienation in there, its articulation was an awful mess of an undisciplined author, and a whopping amount of unfunny.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]taterbird
2013-09-06 10:17 am UTC (link)
Oh, God, this. Heinlein was always a real hit-and-miss, and that book missed for me in ways that can't be mathematically described (not even with the Stock Heinlein Character's Constant Slide-Rule of Heroism. A slide-rule in the future, Heinlein? Really? I had to ask my dad what they were.). My dad gave me his old Heinlein books when I was a kid, and Stranger in a Strange Land was almost as bad as Podkayne of Mars.

/hijacks another thread with a cool glass of Heinlein Hatorade

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cygnia
2013-09-06 03:39 pm UTC (link)
Still annoyed we didn't cover Heinlein's sexism when we had to read "The Puppet Masters" in my science fiction class in college.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kosaginolegion
2013-09-06 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it took me years (most of my formative ones) to realize that while it's all well and good to have women who really really like sex, that doesn't mean the women who Really Really Like Sex (particularly with the author's insert*) are the only women out there worth knowing.

I mean, seriously, RAH, your main character's mother gets the hots for her time-traveling son? Granted she didn't know until later but then she happily joins in with the all Heinlein orgy later on just because he's that awesome and so is she because she has the hots for him?

*Pun unintended but appropriate and therefore retained. "Time Enough for Love" was incredibly fun to read but a huge Gary Stu vehicle nonetheless.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-09-06 06:37 pm UTC (link)
The only one I've read is Stranger in a Strange Land. The part where the main female character started speechifying about how all women really love being leered at by strangers is the part where I realized the guy who recommended me the book was not actually my soul mate.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]white_tean
2013-09-07 06:53 pm UTC (link)
UGH, I've only read the author's preferred text bit, and there was this (white-text for unfunny) massive unfunny rape-apology bit about how Oh hey Martian guy, don't interfere if it looks like a guy is raping me, unless you've read my mind, because I'm probably actually enjoying it. So much awful.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cleolinda
2013-09-06 06:19 pm UTC (link)
See, someone linked to the Wikipedia summary of this book, and I nearly fell outta my damn chair. (WARNING: 24/7 INCEST IS TOTALLY COOL.) Here's the best part--it came up in the context of THIS:

The Worst Thing That I Have Ever Witnessed Personally at a Convention: My friend Jenn and I went to a Teaching SF workshop the next day after the Hugos. During the day, during a break, Robert Heinlein came up and the people in attendance in our little group (who were 3 older men, Jenn and me who might be the youngest person in the room) talked about how badly they wished Heinlein was taught in schools. Jenn, who actually teaches 5th grade reading [ETA: Oops - She teaches Creative Writing as an Art] in a very difficult place, tried to mention that she would never bring Heinlein to her Hispanic and African girls in Red Hook, because not only would they not like it, but the message about women in Heinlein is not a good one. Jenn was literally ignored and steamrolled as if she was not there by the men, and I had to stop the conversation they were having and say, "Hey, actually, can you say that again, Jenn, because I think that's a really important point you just made and we should all hear what you just said and maybe talk about it."

There was actually a ton of discussion and controversy about WTF Are We Going to Do, WorldCon Is in the Death Grip of Sexist Old White Dudes Who Keep Chasing Off the Kids, You Guys, We Are Going to Be So Screwed Twenty Years From Now this past week. That's a little taste of why (with more in the post itself). Also:

"Sure, you have a nice big con now, and a nice big awards ceremony whose online streaming never seems to work. You have internecine debates about why the big fish didn’t get enough panels (please, somebody, get these folks a waahmbulance and World Fantasy registration). But you don’t have major comics creators as GOH. You don’t have voice actors. You don’t have manga-ka. You don’t have game companies. You don’t have play-testing, or LARPS, or teahouses, or fashion shows. You are offering a room full of vintage first-edition hardbacks to a group of people who read books on their phones." (http://madelineashby.com/?p=1502)

On a separate but related note, this also happened:

"At first, they were military science fiction novels of a higher order than most. But the romance elements creep in very early on. Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a good thing) and the attention to detail that only women would find attractive: balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering in the corridors."
(http://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/)

So the SFF wank this week was a many-headed hydra. Don't even get me started on the latest flare-up of the GoodReads Bullies Omg feud.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-09-06 06:35 pm UTC (link)
the attention to detail that only women would find attractive

the attention to detail that only women would find attractive

My husband's a woman now?

And nice to know that men wouldn't be interested in politics or relationships, and only care about things that go zappity zap. Because men are shallow dimwits I guess?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]kita0610
2013-09-06 09:06 pm UTC (link)
Because men are shallow dimwits I guess?

Well to be fair, I would certainly describe John Ringo that way. But it has less to do with his penis than oh say, everything else about him as a person.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]kumquat_of_doom
2013-09-09 01:04 am UTC (link)
My dad's two favourite books are Return of the King... and Pride And Prejudice.

Seriously, I had no interest whatsoever in P&P until he persuaded me to give it a go.

So that wazzock should feel free to go fuck himself because nobody else is going to be interested in doing so.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ekaterinv, 2013-09-10 07:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]veleda_k, 2013-09-11 03:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kumquat_of_doom, 2013-09-11 08:35 pm UTC

[info]brennalarose
2013-09-06 10:53 pm UTC (link)
So, slight side-bar: Which Bujold novels would you recommend for a curious, but militarily-clueless newbie? I've wanted to read her stuff for a while, but the military aspects are a little intimidating.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]quartz
2013-09-07 03:21 am UTC (link)
Start with the compilation Cordelia's Honor. It takes someone who's a civilian working within a typical civilian organizational structure and drops her smack into the middle of a military structure. Warnings however as part of it is set in a war and there is death, injuries, torture, and one on screen attempted rape, so if you're sensitive to any of that do not start there. Instead I'd recommend starting with Komarr as that is much more of a mystery/SF/romance/adventure without much military involvement at all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lastscorpion
2013-09-07 03:51 am UTC (link)
I agree that you should start with Cordelia's Honor, because it is extremely awesome, but I disagree that Cordelia's a civilian. For Beta Colony, being a Captain in the Betan Astronomical Survey is about as military as they get!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ekaterinv
2013-09-07 03:59 am UTC (link)
Bujold is never big on military stuff at all. The characters are military (or military-esque), and much of the plot revolves around war and the fallout from war, but battles and such are not what her books are about. I recommend starting with Cordelia's Honor, as that's where the Vorkosigan Saga starts chronologically. (And yeah, Cordelia's as much a civilian as Captain Kirk.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]full_metal_ox
2013-09-06 11:48 pm UTC (link)
If it restores any of your faith in humanity, Kosagi and I received nothing but respect a couple months ago at a con full of Old White Dudes selling vintage first-edition hardbacks.

(This was Pulpfest in Columbus; pulp fandom is desperate for a third generation--Kosagi and I qualify as second-gen--and would be only too happy to pass out cookies and ice cream to any dadgum kids who might care to venture onto the lawn.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]demonbean
2013-09-07 01:13 am UTC (link)
Oh, this was an insane week for SFF drama. I loved the Memento Mori post!

...I admit that I'm too scared to get into the GR drama.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]phosfate
2013-09-07 02:42 am UTC (link)
My first Worldcon was also my last. The old guard made it very clear that you must be this neckbeardy to ride.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]greenygal
2013-09-07 04:34 am UTC (link)
At first, they were military science fiction novels of a higher order than most. But the romance elements creep in very early on. Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a good thing) and the attention to detail that only women would find attractive: balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering in the corridors.

Even presuming he means "attention to details" that only women are into, that's, uh, quite a sweeping generalization you've got going on there, guy. Especially when followed by the note that Alexander Dumas did this sort of thing, because of course only women have ever read The Three Musketeers.


Bujold is very good at what she does, but she’s operating well within a military sf tradition where nothing is lost in the end (except minor throwaway characters) and all is well.

I want to smack him over the head with Shards of Honor. Or The Warrior's Apprentice. Or Barrayar, Mirror Dance, Memory... Clearly I'm just imagining the suffering and sacrifices in those books. Or does it not count if nobody blows up a planet?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cmdr_zoom
2013-09-07 04:52 am UTC (link)
the attention to detail that only women would find attractive

*says nothing, but merely departs and returns with the collected works of JRR Tolkien in a box - a BIG box - which he drops on the floor with a mighty THUD*

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]come_love_sleep
2013-09-07 09:00 am UTC (link)
Bless you.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sepiamagpie
2013-09-07 09:53 am UTC (link)
I'm gonna say, women know what's good.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]panthea
2013-09-10 11:36 am UTC (link)
Do you know what actually happened with Robert Silverberg and Connie Willis? I've poked around and seen some allusions to him saying "something untoward," but no details.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cleolinda
2013-09-10 05:45 pm UTC (link)
You know, I haven't been able to figure out what happened either.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]dragoness_e
2013-11-12 04:46 am UTC (link)
Where do they find these ignorant, illiterate, sexist morons and why is he editorializing about science fiction?

One of the other great-grandfathers of science fiction, after Jules Verne and H. G. Wells was Edgar Rice Burroughs. Every book he wrote was a romance, and I don't mean in the 19th century sense of "story of an exotic place and time". I mean "there's a guy, a girl, and massive obstacles to them getting together, but they do in the end and live happily ever after, or at least until the sequel".

There were romance sub-plots in both of E. E. "Doc" Smith's major series--y'know, that Doc Smith, the father of space opera?

Ignorant of history, and illiterate in the field he is editorializing about. What a useless git!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


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