(Post a new comment)

	nolifeking 2003-08-23 09:53 pm UTC (link)
	Well, I'll give in to danieloflorien's claim to "erode the human soul", all right. The ellipses, they grind my fragile self to dust. (Reply to this)

	wickeprincess3 2003-08-23 10:13 pm UTC (link)
	EEP! And because it helps complete the great circle of wank, Leslina the poster of the OT thread was in on the Buffyfandom "Eval Rps, Slash exploits the gay man" wankgasm from earlier this week. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	psychofangirl 2003-08-23 10:15 pm UTC (link)
	Leslina's arrogance is astounding. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	psychofangirl 2003-08-23 10:14 pm UTC (link)
	I guess it's difficult for people to just hit the back button or use the scroll button for fan work not to their taste. As for the quote, oh yea, that'll really stop yaoi/slash writers. :rolleyes: (Reply to this)

kerikeri
2003-08-23 10:22 pm UTC (link)

Either I'm missing something in the original post, or some of those commenters need to calm the hell down. Not sure how "I'd like to make a non-yaoi community for this anime because I don't like non-canon yaoi" translates to "I'm a homophobe and homosexuality is disgusting and I can't stand being around people who like it". It's just always amused me how some yaoi fans get so hysterical when it's even vaguely implied that everyone else in the world doesn't share their kink. I don't really agree with the reasons the original poster gave for disliking yaoi in her fandom, but I do believe it's quite possible to not be all that turned on by the idea of two guys together without being a raging homophobe. Some of these people don't seem to grasp that concept.

But, of course, there's wank coming from the other side too. Especially amused by the straight girl telling everyone that they're horribly insensitive for presuming to speak for the gay community without being gay themselves. The irony. It burns.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

pradaloz
2003-08-23 10:30 pm UTC (link)

I don't really agree with the reasons the original poster gave for disliking yaoi in her fandom, but I do believe it's quite possible to not be all that turned on by the idea of two guys together without being a raging homophobe.

Wasn't there a flamefest in HP fandom a while back where people were insisting that "I don't like slash" automatically means "I HATE ALL GAYS!!!!"?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	nolifeking 2003-08-23 11:03 pm UTC (link)
	I think I remember that one as the flamefest where one group thought "slash" meant "anything dealing with non-straight people in any sense", the other that it meant "fics mostly dealing with gay sex, to turn people on", and then everyone held their hands over their ears and shouted a lot. Ah well. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	virago 2003-08-23 10:52 pm UTC (link)
	Yyyyyeah, but I'd advance the possibility that there's a difference between "I don't like slash and won't read it" and "OMG get this horrible stuff OUT OF MY COMMUNITY!" If you want to create an X-free zone, it is implied, at least to many of us, that X is a bad thing in your view. Or maybe I'm just oversensitive. shrug (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

kerikeri
2003-08-23 11:51 pm UTC (link)

If you want to create an X-free zone, it is implied, at least to many of us, that X is a bad thing in your view.

Why can't it just mean that you're not into X and tired of seeing endless amounts of X while you're looking for Y? Maybe I have a different perspective on this because I've always found myself in the uncomfortable position of supporting het pairings in fandoms that were 95% yaoi-centric, but in cases like that, it sometimes IS necessary to create a separate group for non-yaoi if you want to find any of it at all. Most people don't want to write or post stuff that goes against what is mainstream or popular in a particular group, and if yaoi is extremely popular in said group, it can be VERY difficult to find anything else. That has nothing to do with homophobia or disgust toward yaoi, just a desire to find what you're looking for more easily and create an atmosphere where it's more likely to be written, posted and discussed.

I guess it just depends on your definition of "bad thing". Yes, creating a separate group where X isn't allowed implies that one does not like X and does not want to read or see it. But that's not at all the same thing as thinking that X is evil, disgusting, and shouldn't be allowed to exist at all. That may be one reason for not being a yaoi fan, but it's not at all the only reason.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	nolifeking 2003-08-24 12:17 am UTC (link)
	What about just creating a group for Y? The difference in attitude between "We want to read het, so please don't post yaoi!" and "We don't want to read yaoi, so please only post het!". (Reply to this)(Parent)

virago
2003-08-24 04:03 am UTC (link)

I see where you're coming from, but I tend to want to tell people to suck it up and ignore what they don't like. An offshoot of Sturgeon's Law, maybe - you're not going to like everything, so you have to search for what you do like. Everyone does.

And "get it away from me" has an "evil/disgusting" implied. ;) But everyone has their squicks, and I don't hold that against anyone who's up-front about it. I just wish people had thicker skin and could just, you know, read what they like and ignore the rest. I do.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

pyratejenni
2003-08-24 08:28 am UTC (link)

An offshoot of Sturgeon's Law, maybe - you're not going to like everything, so you have to search for what you do like. Everyone does.

So what's wrong with someone creating a community where what they do like can be posted, so they don't have to go looking for it? I don't know about you, but I don't have that kind of time.

How many archives are there for different pairings in various fandoms? I don't see someone creating a het-only community being any different from a slash-only community.

The hysterics on both sides are unwarranted.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	virago 2003-08-25 06:46 am UTC (link)
	I've yet to see a slash-only community, but in that case I would be just as eye-rolling as I am now. I don't know, I just have an approach to fandom that it is a hobby, not some life or death matter that must be wrapped up with utmost speed and efficiency. Everyone goes about it differently, though. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	I've seen my share of slash-only archives karmakaze 2003-08-25 05:50 pm UTC (link)
	There are a number of slash-only archives out there. Wouldn't surprise me if there are slash-only communities as well, if only the ones dedicated to specific pairings. (Reply to this)(Parent)

nolifeking
2003-08-23 11:41 pm UTC (link)

Though they weren't commenting on that general ongoing discussion, but on a specific poster that went closer too "Well, if your parents knew you would just FLOG YOURSELF IN SHAME!" and "If you saw gay men in REAL life, you'd throw yourself to the ground and WEEP!".

Presumably there are wanky people on both sides, but I think it's usually a case of miscommunication. "Slash" had an original meaning as "gay porn", but has come to be used as anything on a scale between "PWP with any genders involved", "gay PWP" and "G-rated fic with some gay characters". "Yaoi" once only meant "gay PWP in the style of Japanese women's erotica", and is still used as that, but also used to mean "non-explicit romance" and "gay". Then there's the bleedover between the groups.

What I see more often than bigots on any side are people who use one definition running into people using another (points at previous HP comment). Because of this they see other people tell them that anything merely dealing with non-hetrosexuals is a strange kink that you have to understand people won't want to see in public (and slash/yaoi writers are often bi or gay themselves)/that they should relish the idea of explicit gay sex thrust in their faces or be seen as bigots. Then everyone goes too emotional to listen to what exactly the other side was talking about, and that damned flamewar starts again, as it will always do, until Earth has gone cold and dark.

Eh, I think I've just turned too serious for this forum, but what the hell.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

iczer6
2003-08-24 12:29 am UTC (link)

{don't really agree with the reasons the original poster gave for disliking yaoi in her fandom, but I do believe it's quite possible to not be all that turned on by the idea of two guys together without being a raging homophobe. Some of these people don't seem to grasp that concept.}

If you don't want to be treated like a raging homophobe don't act like a raging homophobe.

I'm sorry but I am so sick of holier-than-thou het fans acting like they can bash yaoi all the want and not deal with backlash.

Gee whiz when tell a group of people that what they like is evil, disgusting and that they shouldn't write it because YOU don't like don't be surprised when folks take offense.

And if you're a het fan, get over it. Your pairings aren't any 'better' or 'special' than yaoi pairings. Stop acting like you've been given some 'Holy Power' just because you don't like yaoi.

Icz

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

kerikeri
2003-08-24 01:24 am UTC (link)

If you don't want to be treated like a raging homophobe don't act like a raging homophobe.

Where did the original poster "act like a raging homophobe"? I don't see anything that implies that she thinks all gay people are horrible, or that writing yaoi is bad and evil and no one should do it. All she said was that she doesn't want to read it. I don't necessarily agree with everything she said, and I don't share all of her views, but I can certainly understand the sentiment of wanting to create a group dedicated only to the sort of thing she wants to read, so she doesn't have to wade through a lot of stuff that doesn't interest her.

I'm sorry but I am so sick of holier-than-thou het fans acting like they can bash yaoi all the want and not deal with backlash.

Um, I don't think I've ever seen that happen. I've never seen a het fan make a derogatory comment about yaoi without it resulting in a HUGE backlash. And sometimes that backlash is a good and necessary thing, if the comment was rude, hateful and homophobic. But sometimes, all it takes is someone standing up and saying "You know, slash/yaoi isn't really my thing", and they'll get jumped all over by rabid yaoi fans screaming homophobia and discrimination.

What I have seen is some yaoi fans feeling quite free to bash het and het writers endlessly-- saying they're all ignorant homophobes who like to flame slash writers, saying their work is subpar and not worth reading because it focuses on heterosexual relationships, even just being immature and making offhand comments like "eeewww, het!" Comments that, if made about slash fics or writers, would result in huge flamewars and accusations of homophobia. Why the double standard? It's never seemed quite fair to me.

Gee whiz when tell a group of people that what they like is evil, disgusting and that they shouldn't write it because YOU don't like don't be surprised when folks take offense.

Again, where did the original poster of the first thread say any of this? (I know that attitudes like this may have been expressed in the comments, but she was getting hysterical responses personally directed at her, before any of the others chimed in.) I don't remember anything in the first thread about how people shouldn't write yaoi, nor did I see the words "evil" or "disgusting" used by anyone other than the rabid commenters.

And if you're a het fan, get over it. Your pairings aren't any 'better' or 'special' than yaoi pairings. Stop acting like you've been given some 'Holy Power' just because you don't like yaoi.

Okay, not sure if this is a general statement or if it's directed at me personally; if it's the latter, then I think it's really rude and out of line to respond to me like that when I've been nothing but calm and civil in this thread (wanky and too serious for f_w, perhaps, but at least polite about it), but whatever, I'll respond anyway. Yes, I am a het fan. I occasionally enjoy reading and writing yaoi, but the idea of two men together does not hold any special appeal, thrill or turn-on for me, so I don't consider myself a "yaoi fan". No, I do not think that liking het makes me any better than anyone else. And I'm just as irritated about the homophobes and ignorant teenyboppers who write het as yaoi fans are-- maybe even more, because they're giving me a bad name by association. But I am able to see that there's hypocrisy and ignorance on both sides.

I just have to say that the attitude you mentioned above is not unique to het fans. I've seen plenty of yaoi fans who consider themselves cool, edgy and unique just because their OTPs are homosexual, and who think that even a badly written, cliched yaoi fic is inherently more meaningful and worth reading than even a really well-written het fic. You're right in that het pairings aren't necessarily any better or more special than yaoi ones-- but it goes the other way, too.

Can't we just chalk it up to the fact that there are idiots on both sides, that every group has its idiots, and not generalize about an entire subset of fandom for the bad behavior of a few of its ignorant, immature members?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

iczer6
2003-08-24 01:33 am UTC (link)

There's been a mixup here....

I wasn't replying to the first post I was talking about the second post with such lovely lines:

{So basically what I'm saying is this: if you're not gay yourself you have no business writing gay fiction or fanfiction for that matter. If gay love is something that you subconciously feel the urge to casually romantisize than I suggest you speak to the actual people and gay couples who struggle day in and day out with the reality of having their love rediculed and questioned. Writing romantic whimsies about it is just offensive.}

This guy does have a few good points but they're drowned out by his self-rightousness.

And this: {I find this a fun post... I enjoy poking and proding... normally I would viciously attack yaoi fans... but since I'm horribly outnumbered... I'll bide my time... but soon... soon *evil laughter*}

These are the people I have trouble with.

{Okay, not sure if this is a general statement or if it's directed at me personally; if it's the latter, then I think it's really rude and out of line to respond to me like that when I've been nothing but calm and civil in this thread (wanky and too serious for f_w, perhaps, but at least polite about it), but whatever, I'll respond anyway.}

No that comment was not directed at you, I was ranting about het fans in general, sorry for the mixup I should've been clearer on that subject.

{Can't we just chalk it up to the fact that there are idiots on both sides, that every group has its idiots, and not generalize about an entire subset of fandom for the bad behavior of a few of its ignorant, immature members?}

Sure.

Icz

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	virago 2003-08-24 04:05 am UTC (link)
	>>Can't we just chalk it up to the fact that there are idiots on both sides, that every group has its idiots, and not generalize about an entire subset of fandom for the bad behavior of a few of its ignorant, immature members?>> I'll drink to that! Hell, I wish BOTH sides realized that more often. (Reply to this)(Parent)

limyaael
2003-08-24 12:04 am UTC (link)

In my opinion, unless you can fully relate to the experience of a homosexual individual, be they lesbian, male homosexual, transgender, transexual, questioning etc, you have NO business, NONE whatsoever, even FRONTING a fanfic depicting this kind of intimacy.

So no one should ever write anything that's not from their own perspective? How wide does that spread? If you can't write characters of different sexual orientations, what about characters of different sexes, ages, skin colors, classes, religions, backgrounds, heights, eye colors? Should everyone just sit down and fill their stories with quiet little copies of themselves? And what happens if someone wants to write a character who's not human, and they're not furry/otherkin?

Yes. I just committed a logical fallacy. I think it goes along nicely with the one right above it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	sorchar 2003-08-24 01:37 am UTC (link)
	Should everyone just sit down and fill their stories with quiet little copies of themselves? A world full of Mary Sues! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	limyaael 2003-08-24 01:47 am UTC (link)
	Or viruses. Then again, I think the differences between Mary Sues and viruses aren't that great. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	virago 2003-08-24 04:05 am UTC (link)
	You can inoculate against viruses. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	darthhellokitty 2003-08-24 04:14 am UTC (link)
	How do you FRONT a fic, anyway? (Reply to this)

ruaki
2003-08-24 04:29 am UTC (link)

... ;_; It's a beautiful day. Finally, some Naruto wank. I was waiting for it, with the manga being translated and all, but I had thought the yaoi/het wank wouldn't pop up until after the anime was translated. (Since Naruto has spawned countless upon countless of yaoi doujinshi--I think it overshadows even the hentai stuff--including some very strange fan-based yaoi couplings.)

... sadly, the wank seems more centralized over the usual yaoi v. het arguments instead of whether or not Sasuke really is GAYGAYGAY. Yanno, since Naruto and Sasuke kissed in canon and all. (Sure, it was an accident, but ask the fangirls! Sasuke paid to have it happen!)

... anyway. Nice to know that even Naruto isn't sacred. Oh blessed wank!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	iczer6 2003-08-24 04:51 am UTC (link)
	I'm just waiting for some Shaman King wank. Especially with it being brought over by the same people who brutally raped...I mean translated YGO. Oddly enough despite the series being a huge steaming pit of yaoi goodness I actually prefer the Het pairings! I'm a traitor! Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

ruaki
2003-08-24 06:15 am UTC (link)

Considering the Mankin anime pretty much bites the proverbial cock anyway, it can't be fucked up any more.

Oddly enough despite the series being a huge steaming pit of yaoi goodness I actually prefer the Het pairings!

In what, Naruto or Mankin? o.o;

I used to be a huge HoroRen fan Back in Teh Day--you'll probably find my artwork splattered all over HoroRen pages like some kind of sticky goop--but the anime pretty much took out all the HoroRen context anyway, so I'm waiting for some wank to pop up about THAT particular pairing, since it's incredibly popular with Japanese webpages, and Teh Fans Before It was Translated OMG!111.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	iczer6 2003-08-24 06:19 am UTC (link)
	[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<in [...] o.o;>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.] <In what, Naruto or Mankin? o.o;> Mankin. Naruto has some yaoi potential but it's really more about watching ninjas beat the hell out of each other. Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	redmenace 2003-08-24 09:53 am UTC (link)
	Cheers to that. And Harrem no Jutsu. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	dawnswalker 2003-08-24 10:59 am UTC (link)
	And fights filled to the brim with "Flashback no Jutsu" and poorly drawn spectators! :D (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

eljuno
2003-08-24 08:00 pm UTC (link)

And Sakura acting like a little cheerleader!

Honestly, we only watched up to...I think 20-something...in my anime club, but every time Sakura showed up I wondered if the ninja had a VERY bad affirmative action program going. I mean, she's GOT to be as strong as teh boyz, and she does the tree-running thing in the blink of an eye, but every time they fight she just...stands there. And lets Sasuke and Naruto do everything. Every...bleeding...time. Ev...e...ry...sin...gle...time. DO SOMETHING, GIRL!!!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

iczer6
2003-08-24 09:29 pm UTC (link)

{I mean, she's GOT to be as strong as teh boyz, and she does the tree-running thing in the blink of an eye, but every time they fight she just...stands there. And lets Sasuke and Naruto do everything. Every...bleeding...time. Ev...e...ry...sin...gle...time. DO SOMETHING, GIRL!!!}

She does DO something, later.... She has her moment in the sun.

Not that it matters, Sakura's completely undermined by her unhealthy obessesion with Sasuke, despite the fact he wouldn't spit on her if she was on fire.

She has such potential but she's willing to chuck it out the window so she can be Sasuke's Number 1 fangirl.

Icz

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rowan 2003-08-25 02:19 am UTC (link)
	That's one thing I don't like about shounen anime - the female characters tend not to be very interesting. (To me, anyway. Boobtastic does not = interesting. Yes, I'm looking at you, Hevn from Get Backers.) At least Sakura does get to DO SOMETHING, but.... eh. At least she has a personality. glares at Sasuke Oh well. At least Nami from One Piece is pretty cool. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	iczer6 2003-08-25 05:02 am UTC (link)
	[Oh well. At least Nami from One Piece is pretty cool.] Very true. Oh if you want strong female characters in shonen manga I'd reccomend Tenjo Tenge. Not only can the kick ass the can do it in high heels and short skirts. Your icon made me giggle for 10 minutes straight. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rowan 2003-08-25 05:57 am UTC (link)
	As you can see, I have FOUND THE GAY. ;) (Reply to this)(Parent)

dawnswalker
2003-08-25 04:31 am UTC (link)

"Not that it matters, Sakura's completely undermined by her unhealthy obessesion with Sasuke, despite the fact he wouldn't spit on her if she was on fire."

Seconded. I'm hoping that later on in the series, she either finally gets it through her head that Sasuke is never going to be interested in her, or she at least puts a bit more effort into being her own person. No honey, beating the crap out of your rival/friend/doujinshi fanon lover doesn't count.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	iczer6 2003-08-25 05:00 am UTC (link)
	{No honey, beating the crap out of your rival/friend/doujinshi fanon lover doesn't count.} Was this the same friend she ditched so she could pursue Sasuke despite the fact he's never shown either the girl the slightest interest? Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	dawnswalker 2003-08-25 06:05 am UTC (link)
	"Was this the same friend she ditched so she could pursue Sasuke despite the fact he's never shown either the girl the slightest interest?" The same. Because she is The Cause of All Her Problems. That is, when you look at it through Teen Girl in a Shonen Series Logic. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	iczer6 2003-08-25 07:19 am UTC (link)
	{Because she is The Cause of All Her Problems. That is, when you look at it through Teen Girl in a Shonen Series Logic.} Good to know that even in anime female friendships can be destroyed by the age old BITCH STOLE MY MAN! Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)

musette
2003-08-24 10:17 am UTC (link)

::sigh:: Sure pumpkin, all the heterosexuals will stop writing slash, if you think it's fair to also say that all the homosexuals have to stop writing het.

When will people get the fuck over it and realize that bad fic just fucking is BAD FIC? It's bad because it's badly characterized and badly researched and has plot holes the size of Wisconsin, it isn't bad simply because someone who isn't gay is writing it. I'm just as annoyed/offended by bad Mary Sue het fics as I am bad slash fics. It's /fiction/ people, it's being made up. Well researched/thought out fics are a good thing across the board, but I am getting so incredibly tired of slash being singled out as the reason a fic is bad. It's bad because it's BAD, not because it happens to have two guys shagging.

(Reply to this)

eljuno
2003-08-25 12:10 am UTC (link)

And basically this is my NUMBER ONE beef with yaoi and yaoi writers. In my opinion, unless you can fully relate to the experience of a homosexual individual, be they lesbian, male homosexual, transgender, transexual, questioning etc, you have NO business, NONE whatsoever, even FRONTING a fanfic depicting this kind of intimacy.

Oh high declarer of who may and may not write slash, I am queerer than a three-dollar bill, in many exciting ways. May I please be allowed to write hothothot cartoon homoseks?

KTHXBYE

(Reply to this)

	rowan 2003-08-25 02:17 am UTC (link)
	Am I the only person who doesn't care about pairing fic at all, and just wants to see good fic in the spirit of the original series? ... Hello? Anyone? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	musette 2003-08-25 06:17 am UTC (link)
	Can I get big a amen to that. Sweet wounded jesus. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	virago 2003-08-25 06:48 am UTC (link)
	I'm not against pr0n, but yeah, I could definitely go for that nine times out of ten. (Reply to this)(Parent)