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	kerikeri 2003-08-27 10:46 pm UTC (link)
	Hee hee! Ah, the good old days. Aeanagwen seems to have replaced me in the position of biggest fandom shit-stirrer and nemesis to the crazy fangirls. Truly a worthy successor. I'm proud. Oh, but one of her "very, very wrong and incredibly shallow" cliches was true... Aoki and Karen are So Fucking. ducks and runs (Reply to this)(Thread)

	onetrickpony 2003-08-27 11:58 pm UTC (link)
	Boo-yeah! During my five-second foray into X fandom the only pairing that even remotely appealed to me was Aoki/Karen. Because, y'know, ~~Aoki is just adorable and therefore I need no reason~~ they so are. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kerikeri 2003-08-28 12:07 am UTC (link)
	Hee. Yeah, I was the same way, only replace "five-second" with "year-and-a-half-long". I managed to make a name for myself as the A/K chick for a while, but it got old (and the fandom stopped erupting into flamewars every five seconds, and I have a short attention span and like to argue :D). I still like the pairing, though. And he is adorable, isn't he? ;) (Reply to this)(Parent)

iczer6
2003-08-28 01:38 am UTC (link)

Sorry, gonna have to side with Kaitou here. Fact is she's basically bitching about canon portrayals of characters.

Because unless I missed the Special Edition of X manga where Satsuki really is a sweet loving girl who wouldn't hurt a fly, where Arashi actually uses things like Common Sense, where Kusanagi actually did have a personality.

Sorry but Karen IS a flirt, Satsuki is Sociopath, Sora is genki.

Welcome to the X fandom, it's hurts soooo good.

Icz

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kerikeri
2003-08-28 03:04 am UTC (link)

Fair enough-- though I'm known to have similar views about the fandom, I think some of her complaints are a tiny bit exaggerated, particularly the ones about minor characters who just don't get written enough to have fanfiction cliches about them.

But as for the Karen characterization thing, I think it's a more minor complaint than people are representing it as-- I think all she's saying is that it's wrong to say that Karen never wears anything but lingerie, when in canon she only appeared in skimpy dress in one scene, and it was because she'd just come from work. The misconception probably has something to do with the movie, since she actually DID wear lingerie the entire time there. Nitpicky, yes, but it can get annoying-- then again, I haven't really seen it in much fanfiction. I've only seen it in comments from some ignorant fangirls who were trying to claim Karen was a "slut".

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iczer6
2003-08-28 03:09 am UTC (link)

{I think some of her complaints are a tiny bit exaggerated, particularly the ones about minor characters who just don't get written enough to have fanfiction cliches about them.}

I agree. It seems silly to complain that Yuuto's portrayed as shallow playboy in fanfiction when that's how he's portrayed in canon to.

{I've only seen it in comments from some ignorant fangirls who were trying to claim Karen was a "slut".}

I really haven't seen much female bashing in the X fandom, but I haven't been paying it that much attention. I recall seeing some light Kotori bashing in humor fics, but I really haven't seen Karen, Tohru and Satsuki bashing.

Maybe I'm reading the wrong fics?

Icz

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	shoiryu 2003-08-28 04:33 am UTC (link)
	Actually, it seems to me that for the most part it's Kanoe and Kotori who get the most crap, and Hinoto as well. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	shoiryu 2003-08-28 04:32 am UTC (link)
	grin Which is why I said "semi-valid". I agree with her on some points, and on other points, "WTF?" I just think the other girl's response was a little... extreme. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	iczer6 2003-08-28 05:00 am UTC (link)
	Wank on both sides. Original poster had some really good points, but her other points were more like 'put down the crackpipe dear'. The other two got way huffy, but I can understand that, mainly because I had no idea there was so much character bashing going on in the X fandom. [Despite this being the first time I've either heard of it.] But that's just me. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	schoenschoen 2003-08-28 11:10 am UTC (link)
	Ohhhh, pritty X Wank... the wank that always satisfies. :O I have no reference for the fandom, but is it just me, or does it seem pretty wanky for someone to be defending character bashing on a comm created to support frequently-bashed characters? Or at least disavowwing that the character bashing even happens? O_o Anyone? Bueller? (Reply to this)(Thread)

zannechaos
2003-08-28 12:36 pm UTC (link)

does it seem pretty wanky for someone to be *defending* character bashing on a comm created to support frequently-bashed characters?

You mean the commenter who chimed basically shrieking "OMGWTFBBW!!!1one!!! u r so wrong i h8 u!!! how dare u say taht!!?!!!!one!!!!five!!!11!!!" (with better spelling, but that's what it was reeking of)

The poster was complaining about her experiences and observations in what she's seen in fandom, and then someone jumps in shrieking at how DARE she make such ABSURD claims because those characters really ARE trampy/sucky/shallow/screwing the neighbor's dog/whatever.

If I saw a post from a X/F 'shipper bitching and whining about how everyone in the fandom hates that pairing and bashes poor Filia or turns Xellos into an evil baddie, I'd disagree, but I wouldn't tell her she's wrong, for chrissake! I'd simply direct her to other areas of the fandom that she might not be familiar with. She's speaking from her experiences, and that does NOT make them false! If it's not an accurate represenation of the whole fandom, then the bitchy commenter should have STFU and instead directed her to other areas of the sandbox where things might be more to her liking.

But nope. What happened? In the simplest terms: "How dare you think that so-and-so is anything BUT this-and-that because it's CANON!"

In other words, this person's saying the kind of crap that the poster was ranting about doesn't happen in fanfiction because the commenter agrees with those portrayals that the poster was ranting about!

That would be like me ranting about Amelia-bashers, and someone coming in and saying "I don't know what kind of crack you're smoking, because Amelia's never portrayed in any fanfiction in any kind of way that you're bitching over, because EVERYBODY knows in canon she's a narrowminded fanatic with all the personality of a dead squid and she's annoying and self-centered and stupid!"

Riiiiiiiiight. Wank on.

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	zannechaos 2003-08-28 12:39 pm UTC (link)
	...ignore my few typos and missing words. I think I'm more tired than I realize. (Reply to this)(Parent)

schoenschoen
2003-08-28 07:42 pm UTC (link)

I just wanted to follow this up with a little counter-rant of my own. I'll probably join [Bad username: hated_characters] later tonight and say it there, too.

I don't see Yuuto as being 'shallow'. Granted, I've only watched about half the TV series, and not read any of the manga. But he didn't strike me as any more shallow than, saaaaaay, Youji Kudoh. I see him as being 'subtle'. So the guy likes sex? So what! And the conversation they're talking about him having with Satsuki? It basically went like this:

Satsuki: *aka cold, emotionless, sociopathic, creepy computer bint* I don't understand... why is it wrong to kill people? *this is apparently something that has been puzzling her for awhile, and she just doesn't understand it*
Yuuto: *thinks for a second* Well... I suppose it would be because people would cry.

I probably got the quotes wrong, but you get the general idea.

Now, suppose you are talking to someone who doesn't respect human life. And suppose they ask you, because they are genuinely baffled, why it is wrong to kill. There would be no way to answer them in terms they would understand. You could say "You don't have the right to take that person's life" and other stuff like that, but the counter-reasoning would go "If I don't, then how come I *can*?" Simply, killing is something that we think of as so basically wrong that we don't actually sit and try to figure out *why* it's wrong exactly.

Or, let me put it another way. If your grandfather passed away *this is strictly hypothetically speaking ^^* you would be sad. But considering that I don't know your grandfather, I wouldn't care - unless I knew you were sad, in which case I'd care.

I can't see that statement as shallow. No. Sorry. It may be *simple* and it may be *flawed* and it may be *subtle*, but it's definitely not shallow. Truth be told, I was actually *touched* when I saw that part of the series - Yuuto was the only one who could make her understand *why* it was wrong to kill people.

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(Anonymous)
2003-09-06 05:19 am UTC (link)

Or someone saying "Chocolat Misu is NOT written OOC in fanfiction, because everyone KNOWS she's a slutty, Carrot-obsessed, sister-neglecting little bitch in canon!". SO far from the truth-Chocolat may be Carrot-obsessive and flamboyant, but she CAN go five minutes without taking her clothes off and trying to shag him senseless. She DOES love her sister. And the "slut" thing is so ridiculous it makes me laugh. This sexy, flamboyant "take me now!" behavior? It's directed at CARROT. Not Gateau, not Marron, not Sirius, not Milphey. CARROT.

I hate it when people get so one-sided like that.

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	Ack, clumsy... (Anonymous) 2003-09-06 05:20 am UTC (link)
	Oh, and this is Sara Jaye, who doesn't yet have a journalfen account...forgot to sign my name earlier. Sorry about that. (Reply to this)(Parent)