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	acadine 2003-09-11 08:42 am UTC (link)
	Finally! <3 <3 <3 Man, I was worried I'd have to wank myself for this one to show up. Heh. Never let it be said that though I am wanky, I am unaware of this fact. (Reply to this)(Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)

	acadine 2003-09-11 08:46 am UTC (link)
	Aaah, is all t'the good, me lassy. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: celfry 2003-09-11 09:01 am UTC (link)
	Hee. Yes, I had planned on it when I first saw it, but didn't get around to it. But when I glanced back at your LJ and saw in the comments about it not being FWed, I thought, well let's not disappoint her. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	backfromspace 2003-09-11 10:23 am UTC (link)
	I'd just like to say you went to entirely too much effort here. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ciceronianus 2003-09-11 09:10 am UTC (link)
	Well, if nothing else at least the wank is nice and neatly linked - I'm sure that's excuse enough for most people to not respond. Sort of like "the first person to write a freakin' essay in response is the winner because they out-essayed everyone else or the loser because they bothered" etc. (Reply to this)

I don't think houseofsnark 2003-09-11 01:59 pm UTC (link)

I don't think that Justacat is the wanker, here. Or were you saying the one who wrote the essay is the wanker? I can get behind that -- lotsa wank coming from that direction. I hate the misogyny card. Almost as much as I hate het fanfic. And know what? I love real women. I even {gasp} like women protagonists when written by competent authors. I like women's bodies and minds. I hate het fanfic. I don't mind stories with elements of het in them. I hate fanfic where the point is the het relationship. They reek of misogyny to me - in that a woman is not complete without a man. But, hey, that's just my interpretation. YMMV Urgh... the rec site is so not the wank in this one. And I'm not just talking about the cry of misogyny and the subsequent arguments about it. The whole thing is wanky. You have a problem with the site, you go to the site owner, not fandom wank. I don't see justacat setting herself up as some kind of expert or what have you. I am not involved in HP fandom in any way shape or form, so I don't know anything about any kind of history, here. It sure seems there must be some though. (Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: I don't think celfry 2003-09-11 03:02 pm UTC (link)

Oh, I agree, I don't see Justacat as the wanker here. I brought up her site and the mission statement first for background info, especially as the mission statement seems to be part of what some complain about. (I've seen other posts critisizing the site similarly) The whole focus of this wank is Acadine's rant and the reaction it gets. And yes, it is all amusing. Is misogyny to slash what rape is to RPF? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: I don't think ingrid 2003-09-11 05:08 pm UTC (link)
	I hate the misogyny card. Almost as much as I hate het fanfic. And know what? I love real women. I even {gasp} like women protagonists when written by competent authors. Wish I could bronze this. Just ... word. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: I don't think pradaloz 2003-09-11 06:00 pm UTC (link)

I hate fanfic where the point is the het relationship. They reek of misogyny to me - in that a woman is not complete without a man. God, yes. I like het. I've written het. Het smut is a huge turn on for me because I like reading about female sexuality. And yet, most hetfic makes me want to claw my eyeballs out. I see far more negative portrayals in hetfic than I do in slashfic. In fact, I've often found myself on a slashfic binge because I need smut but can't tolerate reading another gruesome stereotype of female behavoir. (As opposed to the times I find myself on a slashfic binge because I crave guy-on-guy action.) Hell, slash is a fucking refuge from misogyny. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: I don't think pradaloz 2003-09-11 06:01 pm UTC (link)
	I see far more negative portrayals in hetfic... That would be: I see far more negative portrayals of women in hetfic... Apparently, my brain is still in bed. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

word (Anonymous) 2003-10-24 05:58 am UTC (link)

I write het too (occasionally, anything really) and have never been as pissed off as when a reviewer said she loved my story because the female chara was such a slut... wtf? (If I remember correctly, she only slept with one man in the story and enjoyed it, might have initiated it, without angsting around about true lurve and such) So now I feel forced to put warnings in my A/N not ever to call the female charas sluts when giving feedback (even if they have sex with more than one person during the course of the story) or else... and it works for some reason, lol. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: I don't think mythdefied 2003-09-12 03:13 am UTC (link)

Hell, slash is a fucking refuge from misogyny. I wish. I'm a rabid slasher but half of my fandom seems dedicated to bashing the female characters in order to get the guys together. Is that fucked up or what? The author, almost always a woman herself, portrays the women as hateful bitches out to ruin a guy's life, so then said guy must be saved from this harpy by his boyfriend. *gag* Makes me want to find the authors, slap them upside the head a few times and drag them to a few NOW meetings. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I don't think pradaloz 2003-09-12 06:26 pm UTC (link)

I think it really depends on the fandom. I've seen the "Must destroy girls so boys can get it on" mindset mostly amongst younger writers in fandoms with more young folks. But even so, in those same fandoms, the het fics tend to be ruled by the "Must destroy all girls except my favorite so the boy can get it one with her" mindset. I think it's more a matter of maturity than anything else. Young girls think that the competition needs to be destroyed, no matter what gender the competition is. And, I think, a lot of them haven't grown up enough to realize that, no, men don't "go gay" because they can't find any good women. Hopefully, these writers will grow past it. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: I don't think iczer6 2003-09-11 07:35 pm UTC (link)

{I hate the misogyny card. Almost as much as I hate het fanfic. And know what? I love real women. I even {gasp} like women protagonists when written by competent authors.} WORD. Honestly I'm not fond of many female characters because IMO in many of the series I read they're not written well. However I hate the concept that since I'm a woman I should automatically be 'bestest friends' with anyone who has a vagina. Really just cause the character is female doesn't mean I have to *like* her. Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: I don't think virago 2003-09-11 08:54 pm UTC (link)

>>I like women's bodies and minds. I hate het fanfic. I don't mind stories with elements of het in them. I hate fanfic where the point is the het relationship. They reek of misogyny to me - in that a woman is not complete without a man. But, hey, that's just my interpretation. YMMV>> Got the YMMV part. I'm just curious. Coming at this from kind of a stupid/disingenous angle here - how is this different from slash? Somehow slash doesn't suggest that a man isn't complete without another man, or a woman isn't complete without another woman? True, MANY het stories have that slant, but to say that hetero romance is inherently degrading, while homosexual romance is not, sounds kind of um. Yeah. If someone had switched those around, heads would roll. I know I've gotten bitchslapped before for daring to apply the same standards to slash and hetfic, but if anyone would humor me in explaining this, I'd really appreciate it. I can't help thinking like this; sometimes I hate my perspective. Everything goes in the same category for me. I can't see slash and het differently. It's a pain in the ass. Sometimes I wish I denounce one or the other like everybody else. One would think it's liberating, but really it's not. So I apologize. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: I don't think virago 2003-09-11 08:55 pm UTC (link)
	...sometimes I wish I could denounce one or the other, rather. Sometimes I wish I could comprehend English, too. Idiot... (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: I don't think iczer6 2003-09-11 09:37 pm UTC (link)

{True, MANY het stories have that slant, but to say that hetero romance is inherently degrading, while homosexual romance is not, sounds kind of um. Yeah. If someone had switched those around, heads would roll.} I think we were generalizing a bit there. Not all het romances are degrading that's very true. A well written romance between ANY two characters is truly a joy to find. I think issue is really with the het fics written by teenage girls who DO think that not having a boyfriend is the Worst Thing To Ever Happen are the ones that make me want to beat my head aganist the keyboard. And I feel the same way with slash stories that do the same thing. I think the real problem is that the romance genre itself it often poorly written and riddled with cliches. Did I make any sense here? Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I don't think virago 2003-09-11 10:35 pm UTC (link)

Yeah - it's not what was posted in the post I was replying to, but yeah, I think I see your point. I agree, Sturgeon's Law is most definitely in effect in the romance fic arena. Everywhere in fic, of course, but most notably in romance fics. However, that's not what I saw there - maybe I'm wrong. But generally it was coming across to me as "slash good! het bad!", which is an entirely different thing. When someone brings up the "slash demeans gay men" complaint, they're laughed out of the vicinity. This, to me, would be the reverse of that, and it's generally accepted. My double-standard alarm is going off like mad. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I don't think - robin_serrano, 2003-09-11 11:01 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - virago, 2003-09-11 11:26 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - iczer6, 2003-09-11 11:39 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - gairid, 2003-09-12 02:09 am UTC

Re: I don't think houseofsnark 2003-09-11 11:25 pm UTC (link)

Let's start with this Coming at this from kind of a stupid/disingenous angle here - how is this different from slash? Somehow slash doesn't suggest that a man isn't complete without another man, or a woman isn't complete without another woman? disingenuous - even though it was spelled incorrectly, it's the only word that makes sense in this context. And that thre me right from the start... disingenuous not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of frankness; So you're admitting you're baiting me, here? Just wanted to make sure. This is coming stream of consciousness, so bear with me because this isn't the place for an "the evils of hetfic" rant. I'm just sick and tired of seeing over and over again women who won't read het being accused of misogyny. Wrong. Het writers are victims and the perpetrators of the patriarchal misygonystic society. Women are the only oppressed group I've ever/b> heard of who vote to keep their oppressors in power. Women characters I've tried to read hetfic about. I'm going to go all specific now. Janeway Torres Scully Buffy A few more. But let's see what they all have in common? Sensing a patter there yet? And what do the women writers of hetfic of these few strong independent women characters do? Write stories where they angst over the feelings of the man they can't live without. Because, you know, women are nothing unless their married with children. And yeah, slashfic is rife, rife, with bad cliches and bad writers... I can't stand to see the viewpoint that woman without man = sad and lonely spinister with no point to her life. I can't stand to see strong and capable woman being made into simpering idoits to catch that man she's after. Hetfic - you can keep it. I'll read and write my slashfic where the missteps by writers aren't so frigging personal. And if someone thinks I'm a misogynyst. Well, good for them. The real truth is that I'm a misanthrope. I hate to see the misogynyst card played again and again. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I don't think - virago, 2003-09-11 11:32 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - houseofsnark, 2003-09-11 11:37 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - iczer6, 2003-09-11 11:41 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - virago, 2003-09-12 12:12 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

Re: I don't think - kannaophelia, 2003-09-13 05:42 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - (Anonymous), 2003-09-13 05:16 am UTC

Re: I don't think - robin_serrano, 2003-09-13 11:32 am UTC

Re: I don't think - ipardonyou, 2003-09-13 03:41 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - zorrorojo, 2003-09-13 03:46 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - kannaophelia, 2003-09-13 05:52 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - zorrorojo, 2003-09-13 07:28 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - kannaophelia, 2003-09-13 08:05 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - zorrorojo, 2003-09-14 09:59 pm UTC

Re: I don't think - beccastareyes, 2003-09-16 05:31 am UTC

Re: I don't think teratologist 2003-09-12 12:52 am UTC (link)

Going at this from a slightly different angle than the person that the question was, you know, directed to - I think there are a couple of answers to your question. Slash is different a.) because slash a literature that even dares to, well, speak its name has a much shorter continuous history in western culture than het fic. Therefore the cliches have had less time to become ingrained and widespread, so they seem a little less overwhelmingly revolting, at least to me. b.) Because the unfortunate truth is that a portrayal of a relationship between two men or two women, in a lot of fandoms and with a lot of authors, will generally come closer to being portrayed as a relationship between equals than a het relationship. I get turned on by relationships between equals. Obviously not all slash is between equals - Snarry squicks me utterly because the relationship is so very clearly destined to remain unequal, for instance. But fics where the relationship is unequal AND there's a female in there getting the worse end of the stick, those I take more personally. c.) And as a matter of taste, I am left cold by the entire history of marriage-centric literature from Jane Austen to the Harlequins, whether witty or stupid, sexy or chaste, and those seem to be the predominant models that hetfic writers I have encountered draw on. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I don't think - virago, 2003-09-12 04:42 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

Re: I don't think - teratologist, 2003-09-12 05:57 am UTC

Re: I don't think - sidhebastardess, 2003-09-12 06:24 am UTC

Re: I don't think - necronomist, 2003-09-13 01:52 am UTC

Re: I don't think - virago, 2003-09-12 06:54 am UTC

Re: I don't think - kannaophelia, 2003-09-13 06:22 pm UTC

Re: I don't think valarltd 2003-09-12 02:15 am UTC (link)

Far too much het is wtritten by people with no clue. It ends up being 1) I Must Have a Man! I'm Nothing Without a Man! I'm hurling myself at someone who doesn't give a damn just because--oh, wait, that's canon... 2) Her enormous C-cups quivered as he pounded his massive eight inch rod into her sopping fuckhole, gushing gallons of space-cum into her thirsty womb. "More, more, daddy" the perverted princess cried nastily. 3) Look, it's me! Having sex with Boba Fett! (and we know how much fun other people's sex fantasies are, right?) 4) Look, it's you! Having sex with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan! In Present Tense! The slash I read, the sex tends to be incidental to the plot: the lovers are having sex to release the tension generated by the plot, or they're just stealing a few moments to themselves. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: I don't think - mythdefied, 2003-09-12 03:23 am UTC

Re: I don't think - virago, 2003-09-12 04:45 am UTC

Re: I don't think - valarltd, 2003-09-12 04:49 am UTC

Re: I don't think - virago, 2003-09-12 06:57 am UTC

	*rolls her eyes* ereshkigal 2003-09-11 03:34 pm UTC (link)
	Man, seriously, if you have enough time to bitch at length about something that's rather... stupid to begin with, then you need another hobby. Otherwise, you might turn into MsA. (Reply to this)

	franny 2003-09-11 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	This is my favorite bit of this whole kerfuffle. I boggle. (Reply to this)

askye 2003-09-13 05:04 am UTC (link)

I was wondering when this was going to end up here. I'm a friend of Justacat's and I can tell you that Acadine never contacted Justacat to let her know about the problems with the misspelling and the links. Justacat had to learn it all second hand after someone else told her about Acadine's link. I figure if Acadine is so upset by everything going on and taking up that much time to type up that much material emailing the owner of the site can't be too hard. Because that's an awful lot of time and trouble to put into something and be that offended by something and not tell the person who's accidentally offended you that you're offended. (Reply to this)