Log In

Home
    - Create Journal
    - Update
    - Download

LiveJournal
    - News
    - Paid Accounts
    - Contributors

Customize
    - Customize Journal
    - Create Style
    - Edit Style

Find Users
    - Random!
    - By Region
    - By Interest
    - Search

Edit ...
    - Personal Info &
      Settings
    - Your Friends
    - Old Entries
    - Your Pictures
    - Your Password

Developer Area

Need Help?
    - Lost Password?
    - Freq. Asked
      Questions
    - Support Area



白い竜 ([info]shoiryu) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2003-09-16 10:42:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:dirty
Current music:Bjork, "It's Oh So Quiet"
Entry tags:clamp, reviews, sockpuppets

Here we go again.
Brought to you from the fandom that takes it's canon as seriously as death.


Several months ago, in the X fandom, there came an upsurge of "anonymous fic review sites", in which members of the fandom- sometimes BNFs themselves- would assume a pseudonym and proceed to tear the hell out of someone else's fanfic. Some pretty darn snarky. Some were "dedicated to telling the truth about mainstream fanfic".


And then... there was Mary-Sue.


No, seriously, that's what she's calling herself. And she's already laid into a fanfic. Watch as I get wanky, someone else dares her to review one of their own fics, and the author of the reviewed fic finds out.


Small now, but knowing my fandom, it's going to explode, and soon!


(Post a new comment)


[info]iczer6
2003-09-16 07:49 pm UTC (link)
Er, sorry but I'm kinda on the reviewers side here.

To be fair it would've helped if they turned the snark down a few notches, but this just seems like another rehash of You-didn't-like-my-fic-so-you-suck argument.


Icz

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]shoiryu
2003-09-16 08:09 pm UTC (link)
To be fair it would've helped if they turned the snark down a few notches, but this just seems like another rehash of You-didn't-like-my-fic-so-you-suck argument.

That's exactly what it is, really. And to be honest, I do agree with most of her points about the story.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2003-09-16 08:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shoiryu, 2003-09-16 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]redpanda, 2003-09-16 10:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bohicamouse, 2003-09-17 04:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]banal_o_rama, 2003-09-17 04:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bohicamouse, 2003-09-17 06:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]redpanda, 2003-09-17 05:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quinctia, 2003-09-17 12:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rann, 2003-09-18 12:01 am UTC

[info]resmiranda
2003-09-16 08:05 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, I'm totally on the side of the reviewer here. Free-for-all on the net and all that. Also, I like snark in reviews, as it seems to emphasize what's wrong rather than undercutting the point ("it sucks!") with niceties ("but I liked the font!").

Reviewer: Thumbs up! Wank: Pretty damn funny, too.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2003-09-16 10:24 pm UTC (link)
*gets out marshmellows to roast over impending flame war* Anyone else want one ^^?

(Seriously, though, to quote Kim (http://livejournal.com/~sumeragiskank), "The X fandom needs controversy like an alcoholic needs cheap booze." and sadly, she's mostly right. This has the strong potential to get messy quick)

Heh. X Fandom/Wankers: Theirloveissoflamey. And I'm so going to hell for that ^^

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]shoiryu
2003-09-16 10:31 pm UTC (link)
*EG* I'm waiting for it to happen, really. I love it when the community gets all stirred up. :D You wanna code, mysterious anon? e-mail hellion@outgun.com

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]iczer6
2003-09-16 11:46 pm UTC (link)
Wanna code? Just email me at iczer6@aol.com and I'll be happy to give you one.


Icz

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2003-09-17 12:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2003-09-17 12:51 am UTC

[info]mpoetess
2003-09-16 11:06 pm UTC (link)
Oddly it's the final poster -- who I don't think is trying to be wanky -- who gets to me:

Personally, I want to see you put your money where your mouth is and show us some of YOUR fanfiction. If you can write, then I might just give a rat's ass about your reviews.


No. Nononono. Dude. No. Reviewing is not about being a writer, and aside from the ability to write the review, there's no put up or shut up required. Reviews are about about how one's story comes off to a reader. I don't give a fuck if my story's being reviewed by a plumber from Des Moines who can't string together two sentences worth of fiction and doesn't want to either. If he can talk about the canon, explain why my characters don't come off in a pleasing way and why my prose has something to be desired, he's worth listening to. I walk [note that original typo was 'wank'] out of a movie going "That sucked; it was so dark I couldn't follow the action, the acting was wooden, and I saw the plot twist coming 5 minutes into the film" and nobody says "Yeah? What movies have *you* made recently, bitch?" Er, except possibly Vincent Gallo.

Shudder. That "those who can, do, those who can't, teach" or "those who can't, criticise" thing makes my brain ache.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]resmiranda
2003-09-17 12:59 am UTC (link)
HA!

Word.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]thewashinator, 2003-09-17 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lynstraine, 2003-09-17 07:27 am UTC

[info]pradaloz
2003-09-17 05:07 am UTC (link)
YES.

I'd also like to know when it became a reviewer's responsibility to tell an author how to improve her story. Granted, a thorough review will highlight aspects of the story that didn't work and can thus be used by the author to guide her writing in the future, but I had always thought that the intended audience for a review is the reading public, not the author. Letters of comment are written for authors; reviews are written for readers. That's why I read fic reviews, at least--not to see the reviewer take the author's hand and lead her down the glorious path of self-improvement but to see whether or not a fic is going to be worth my time.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Anonymous)
2003-09-17 05:16 am UTC (link)
I think the main points are that a fanfic gives her more credibility than just a peeved fangirl with too much snark, and if one knows how to write, it's easier to know how to correct and give advice. It's the difference between "this isn't right" and "this isn't right, let me show you" type on thing.
Oh well...in the end, it's wank wank and more wank, regardless.

-Imbrii

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]banal_o_rama, 2003-09-17 05:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2003-09-17 06:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2003-09-17 05:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2003-09-19 12:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2003-09-19 12:42 am UTC

[info]dontgiveahoot
2003-09-18 03:11 am UTC (link)
No. Nononono. Dude. No. Reviewing is not about being a writer, and aside from the ability to write the review, there's no put up or shut up required. Reviews are about about how one's story comes off to a reader. I don't give a fuck if my story's being reviewed by a plumber from Des Moines who can't string together two sentences worth of fiction and doesn't want to either. If he can talk about the canon, explain why my characters don't come off in a pleasing way and why my prose has something to be desired, he's worth listening to. I walk [note that original typo was 'wank'] out of a movie going "That sucked; it was so dark I couldn't follow the action, the acting was wooden, and I saw the plot twist coming 5 minutes into the film" and nobody says "Yeah? What movies have *you* made recently, bitch?" Er, except possibly Vincent Gallo.

You've just put one of my own pet peeves right on the line. I hate the "those who can't, criticise" school of thought as much as I hate the "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything" school of thought. The whole concept of not being "qualified" to make any non-positive comment without your own resume of fanfics (or fanart, or whatever is the topic) on standby is desperately irritating for two reasons:

1) It isn't true. I can't draw worth a damn - but does that mean I'm not allowed to point out errors in a piece of art? Does it mean I'm not allowed to see them, or think about noticing them because I'm not an artist and therefore I should hold nothing but mindless praise for someone who has?

2) It gives authors a cop-out from having to face up to an intelligent review that's less than the highest praise. "Oh yeah? Well, I don't have to listen to you, cause you're not a writer so you don't count!" This is a load of bullshit. Someone needs to tell the "Those who can" brigade that there's a difference between "those who do" and "those who CAN".

Jen / Quoth the Raven

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]split
2003-09-17 01:29 am UTC (link)
The reviewers have some valid points (but OOC-ness is in the beholder's eyes, so to speak), though I have a question - why should the reviewers go annoymous?

If they're BNF themselves, wouldn't their words meant more than a silly name like ... err ... "Mary Sue?" If they want people to take them seriously, I'll suggest them going by their normal online handle.

Not that I haven't done the whole assume-a-pseudonym-and-snarl-at-fandom thing before ... *cough* I'm not involved with the X fandom in any ways, but don't all fandom have their fair share of bad fics?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]iczer6
2003-09-17 03:06 am UTC (link)
[If they're BNF themselves, wouldn't their words meant more than a silly name like ... err ... "Mary Sue?" If they want people to take them seriously, I'll suggest them going by their normal online handle.]

I think it has to do with not wanting people to bombard her fics or email address with long rants on why she it the Greatest Evil the Fanfic World Has Ever Known.

Sadly I've seen things like this happen at FF.net, basically author leaves less-than-stellar review and the review-ee gets revenge by reporting the reviewers fics and getting them pulled.

Gotta love the internet.


Icz

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]harukami, 2003-09-17 06:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]split, 2003-09-17 11:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]harukami, 2003-09-18 07:43 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2003-09-17 03:11 am UTC (link)
Weeell, Xandra and Jessi are sorta BNF, which is why there's all this controversy - if it'd had been, say, the one fic _I_ wrote and posted on CLAMPesque, there wouldn't have been half the reaction. We've already got one of the other X BNFs (One of the ones who I'm pretty happy staying away from, no real offense meant to her) chiming in, and, well, there is something to be said for not waking up to find your inbox filled with angry e-mails from tons of X fangirls ^^

Not nessesarily the reason, but always a possibly one. I'm waiting to see when this matter moves off of LJ and onto personal blogs ^^
-Cocoa

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]split, 2003-09-17 11:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2003-09-18 12:03 am UTC

[info]kerikeri
2003-09-17 05:20 am UTC (link)
If they're BNF themselves, wouldn't their words meant more than a silly name like ... err ... "Mary Sue?" If they want people to take them seriously, I'll suggest them going by their normal online handle.

Actually, I gotta disagree with this. I'm not sure why people always assume anonymous = not credible. Granted, if someone's claiming to have inside industry knowledge or something (case in point: the whole Domlijah thing), it's a problem if they don't have a name or proof to back themselves up. But when all they're doing is reviewing fanfiction, I'm not entirely sure how much difference the name makes in terms of credibility.

In my experience, adding a personal dimension to reviews like this makes them less likely to be considered seriously. When there's a name and face to put to the words, it automatically becomes "Oh, she's just attacking me because she doesn't like me!" and just starts a whole lot of drama. Not that this isn't starting drama, but it's a drama that's a bit less likely to undermine the sentiments of the review.

JMO, of course.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]split, 2003-09-17 11:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2003-09-18 04:37 am UTC
Re: - [info]split, 2003-09-18 04:53 am UTC

[info]parlance
2003-09-17 04:14 am UTC (link)
Anonymous review LJ's seems to be the next wave of of wank.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]banal_o_rama
2003-09-17 04:48 am UTC (link)
Note to self: start anonymous review journal.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Hmmm...
(Anonymous)
2003-09-17 07:25 am UTC (link)
I think one of the huge problems in this entire arguement is the confusion between 'opinion' and 'constructive criticism'.

The difference between the two is an opinion is just that, an opinion by the person. It doesn't have to even go into detail even. Criticism is taking a time out to make something better.

The person who wrote the review, I don't think was wanting to give criticism, period. She simply wanted to express her opinion on a fanfic, which, to me, is perfectly okay. We do it everyday with products, video games, TV shows, etc. She didn't like it, she stated why, big deal! Move on!

And I think she indirectly proved why she wanted to stay anonymous too. I mean, if she was going to get this harsh type of treatment back for expressing her opinion...

If this was my story, I would've been tempted to e-mail the reviewer and actualy ask her for criticism and point out specifically why so-and-so doesn't work and what I could do to fix it. If I didn't agree with the person, I'd just move on. It's no big deal, not everyone is going to agree with you on characterizations in fiction.

The thing is, with this person, she was able to back up her opinion. She stated why the characters were out of canon, she backed up her opinion, which made her look good, in my eyes.

Most people just saw the 'snarkiness' of this thread, not the opinion itself. I don't think you're going to change the person who did the original review's mind by just saying, 'Oh, you shouldn't be so negative!' Tell them why they're wrong instead of saying that they shouldn't post things like this on the net. Instead of saying how wrong it is to be so negative, prove to them why their opinion is wrong.

I hate to say this, but people in reality don't sugar coat things. And why should they anyways? Reality can be much more harsh than this person's review.

The motive for things like this is simple: Expressing one's opinion. NOT giving feedback, but expressing an opinion on a piece of work, and that's where I think everyone lost it at.

And the whole 'If you don't write fanfiction, you shouldn't review' is absolutely stupid. That's a double standard. I know people out there who gave opinions on cartoons, video games, artwork, paintings, movies, TV shows, etc and they don't make them. So they can't state their opinion on it? Right...

My two pennies.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Hmmm...
[info]iczer6
2003-09-17 07:50 am UTC (link)
[Most people just saw the 'snarkiness' of this thread, not the opinion itself. I don't think you're going to change the person who did the original review's mind by just saying, 'Oh, you shouldn't be so negative!' Tell them why they're wrong instead of saying that they shouldn't post things like this on the net.]

I think that's the heart of the issue, far too many folks seemed more annoyed that she didn't sugar coat her opinion than they were with the opinion itself.

Like I said earlier it's the old assumption that any comment that isn't gushing praise MUST be a flame, in the fanfic world IMO there is very little middle ground.

Very few people if any gave evidence of why the reviewer was wrong. Instead of backing up their claims they basically whined about how mean the person was.

Wanna code? Iczer6@aol.com

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Hmmm... - [info]phosfate, 2003-09-17 05:39 pm UTC
Re: Hmmm... - [info]kannaophelia, 2003-09-23 04:14 pm UTC
Re: Hmmm...
[info]resmiranda
2003-09-17 03:03 pm UTC (link)
And what a fine, shiny two pennies they are. Thumbs up. Would you like a code? resmiranda23 @ yahoo.com

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Hmmm... - (Anonymous), 2003-09-17 10:45 pm UTC
A few random comments from a n00b
[info]embyquinn
2003-09-17 07:59 am UTC (link)
First, while the review WAS snarky, it was certainly specific and not just a "MAN does this SUCK ASS!" rantfest. I'm a fanfic writer, and so long as people bother to tell me what they don't like rather than just insult me, I'm willing to listen even if I don't agree with what they say or how they say it.

Second, posting under a pseudonym can have several justifications. In a sense, we're all anonymous in cyberspace. (In cyberspace everyone can hear you wank.)

Third, the assertion that a reviewer has to be proficient in the field of the reviewed work is, well, too pointless and idiotic to even bother with.

Oh, and I'm Emby. Hi. :B

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: A few random comments from a n00b
[info]shoiryu
2003-09-17 08:25 am UTC (link)
...Heeey, the Emby Quinn who makes KiSS dolls? :D *Wave* Welcome, welcome!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: A few random comments from a n00b - [info]embyquinn, 2003-09-17 03:45 pm UTC
Re: A few random comments from a n00b - [info]amakath, 2003-09-18 01:44 am UTC
Hmmm...
[info]shimegami
2003-09-17 04:08 pm UTC (link)
Ah, yes, X fandom. I remember thee. I also remember the verbal smackdown I got from my single X fic because I didn't translate Fuuma's name correctly, which resulted in me and the reviewer having a wankfest over a name. Good times, those.

Personally, I wouldn't be too upset if I get a bad review, or if someone snarked me out over my fanfic. Because, yanno, it's just fanfic. I write them because they're fun and I have nothing else to do with my time. If I were aiming to become a professional writer, perhaps I would take them more seriously, as I would want to become a better writer. But, when it's just fanfic, I somehow feel like people are wasting time obsessing over cannon and such.

Now, if this were original story stuff, my opinion might be different. But sometimes I think people take their fanfics a wee bit too seriously. Just because someone reviewed your story and pointed out things wrong, or even didn't like it, it's not the end of the world.

-Shimegami, the author without a single fandom!

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2003-09-17 07:01 pm UTC (link)
Honestly, my favorite part of the whole wank is everyone whining that this girl was too mean in her review. Oh, right. Because reviewers are just peaches and cream in the first place. Like it would even make a difference.

People don't like to read that their story is ass. Never have, never will. It wouldn't matter if this girl brought up a bunch of valid points and sugarcoated it in a sweet, sappy manner -- the authors would probably still get ticked off and react in the same wanky way.

That's the thing that I love about this piece of wank. Everyone is so upset about the *way* this review was written. Because you're supposed to be nice all the time. Well, I guess no one gave that memo out to the rest of mankind, because movie reviewers were really just so sweet and sympathetic after the mess that was Gigli.

I don't understand why people think that kindness is the standard when it comes to criticism or reviewing. It's not. Hell, most movie, book and television reviews nowadays are full of snark. You don't see professional critics saying things like, "Well, this movie is ass, but wasn't Mariah Carey lovely? We should snuggle her and have candy."

The reviewing world isn't a nice world. Why are people so surprised that fanfic is the same way? Yeesh.

AnnieSJ (http://www.livejournal.com/users/anniesj)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: A few random comments from a n00b - [info]amakath, 2003-09-18 02:01 am UTC
I worry about these things...
(Anonymous)
2003-09-19 09:57 am UTC (link)
Because really the only issue for me is respect. The review was disrespectful, which is all well and good, but if you're going to be disrespectful ... acknowledge it. What bothers me is when people are disrespectful to others and yet pretend to be doing people favors. I get this mental image of fanfic authors bent over the snarky reviewer's knee and being forced to say "please sir may I have another?" every time someone decides to post an "honest" review. Are writers not allowed to have a reaction to being disrespected? Do we just have to grin and bear it while everyone else gets the right to express their opinions? When authors disrespect the reviewers they're always labeled as whining and being oversensitive, but when the reviewer disrespects the author they're just being "honest". Why does one group have the right, if not the responsibility, to vent their frustrations while the other is suppose to sit down and shut up?

When you write to post something for the public, a consequence of that is negative feedback. Writers should acknowledge that risk when they post their stories, but at the same time reviews are also a form of writing and they bear the same consequences. In the same way fanfic reviewers have to accept responsibility for what they say, and when they deliberately disrespect someone they cannot run behind their principles and righteousness for protection. It's their responsibility to accept the consequences of what they've written, otherwise their just as bad as the fanfic writers who cry "waaaahhh you're so mean!!!" at the very hint of negative feedback.


--Isa ^_^

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: I worry about these things... - [info]banal_o_rama, 2003-09-19 06:50 pm UTC
Re: I worry about these things... - [info]shoiryu, 2003-09-20 12:52 am UTC
Re: I worry about these things... - (Anonymous), 2003-09-20 12:38 pm UTC
Re: I worry about these things... - (Anonymous), 2003-09-20 12:39 pm UTC
Re: I worry about these things... - (Anonymous), 2003-09-20 01:16 pm UTC
Re: I worry about these things... - (Anonymous), 2003-09-21 05:28 am UTC

  
   
Privacy Policy - COPPA
Legal Disclaimer - Site Map