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	sagralisse 2003-09-21 11:27 pm UTC (link)
	My main character is the type you can't help but love, but sometimes want to strangle because of her stubborness. ^_^ Oh, a strong-willed-yet-adorable main character? I can't wait! (Reply to this)

valarltd
2003-09-21 11:36 pm UTC (link)

OCs have their uses. And Non-sue OCs don't have to be ugly. I mean, Talla (a SW OC) is cute enough, looks-wide. She's as annoying as hell, and a basic plot device that vanishes after chapter 2. And Cardala is lovely, powerful, a telepath and runs trhe whole planet at the extremely young age of 80. But she's there as a foil. The Lady Tagge (who is not an OC, but I've been accused of creating her) is beautiful, rich and powerful. She's also obsessed with revenge on our hero.

And Lejilujo was green. He wasn't a nice man.

Some people.

Fanfiction is supposed to be fun, but if you publish, be prepared to be flamed.

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melange
2003-09-21 11:43 pm UTC (link)

Honestly, I tend to think that an OC can be annoying, even if they are a Mary Sue. I've come across fanfics, which actually did have good, well-developed OCs, but when I read fanfic, I want to read about the canon characters. If the written really loves that OC, write an original story about her (or him), because if she (or he) is getting more page-time than the canon characters (aka the ones I give a flying fuck about it) I'm going to make use of my back button.

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	pradaloz 2003-09-22 01:45 am UTC (link)
	but when I read fanfic, I want to read about the canon characters. That's pretty much always been my philosophy. I figure if I want a story that focuses on OCs, I'll go to the library, where my hit-to-miss ratio will be much higher than online. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	melange 2003-09-22 02:20 am UTC (link)
	I figure if I want a story that focuses on OCs, I'll go to the library, where my hit-to-miss ratio will be much higher than online. Exactly. What makes a good fanfic is very different from what makes an good original fic in a number of ways, and I don't want to wade through all the awkward exposition and clunky characterization that comes with 90% of OCs. (Reply to this)(Parent)

valarltd
2003-09-22 04:35 am UTC (link)

I'm of the opinion there's only so many ways the canon folks can interact. There's only so many times you can shoot the same stormtroopers/hex the same Slytherins/phaser the same Klingons.

Eventually, original characters come into it to provide the necessary conflict that drives the plot.

I agree they shouldn't be the main focus, but I'm saying if it's always Kirk vs. Kang, or we're still fighting the Empire, or whatever, it all starts to read the same.

I find original bad guys much more interesting than recycling the same cliches.

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melange
2003-09-22 06:09 am UTC (link)

Well, I agree and disagree that there's only so much you can do with canon characters. However, personally, I'd rather read a same-old same-old kinda fic, than one that over-used an OC.

I go into fanfic with different expectations than I have for original fic. In fanfic I have almost no patience for exposition. I want the plot to start right away, with none of that messy backstories and explanation. Finding one in a fanfic tends to be irritating just because I don't expect, or want it to be there.

Furthermore, someone who's been writing primarily fanfic isn't going to be practiced at writing exposition, and probably won't do it well. It's usually not well integrated into the plot, and I just end up being bored by it.

And since I read primarily slash (with a good smattering of het as well) and it sounds like you read gen, there's probably some serious genre issues that arise. This is just my guess, but I think that while different authors can have vastly different takes on the same ship, there's not bound to be a lot of variance between different action scenes.

In the end, I don't mind OCs on principle. I've come across a few fics where they're well done. I like an OC when they're integral to the plot, have a function that cannot be filled by a canon character, and when they don't become to focus of the story. Like I said, if a writer comes up with a stunning OC, that they just need to focus on, I say that they should write an original fic, where this character will shine, rather than overshadow the characters that I want to read about.

Of course, this is all very firmly JMO.

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valarltd
2003-09-22 07:18 am UTC (link)

Actually, I'm a slasher too, but I like plot-heavy slash. (I do write gen and het on the side) And no, there's not a lot of difference between action scenes. I've read het that was as slashy as anything in a slash zine, and gen that could go either way.

I write primarily in the SW milieu, and after the Empire's fallen, there's got to be *something* to keep the boys occupied. Not like they can spend their lives in bed.

Bear in mind, I consider everyone from the shopbot who says "Thank you come again" to the wicked gunrunner hellbent on getting into Han's pants as part of his negotiating fee to be OCs. And there's a huge difference in function. I may define it more broadly than most.

OCs, in my fic serve as one of several things:

Background scenery: the shopdroid, Lilla who fuels Luke's X-wing, the passerby in the Coruscant shopping district, the bartender, the docbot Luke had to reprogram to get to see his lover while Han was quarentined with the GFFA equivalent of chicken pox

Villains

Allies, or someone that has to be won over to aid the Republic

So far no one has managed to usurp the plot.

And I do write original fic as well. I started writing Trek, moved into original, lost my marbles, quit writing and came back to fanfiction while I found the words again. Original is a lot of fun. I'm writing slash-style noncon for a zine.

Opinion is good. Everyone should have one.
When I'm reading, I want to read about my boys. But I want them to DO something, be the heroes they are, and not just hang around having sex.

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melange
2003-09-22 04:46 pm UTC (link)

Actually, I'm a slasher too, but I like plot-heavy slash.

Ah, I'm the same way, even though I'm not a big fan of action-oriented plots (meaning battles, or violent fight scenes, I don't mind intrigue or even war-oriented plots, as long as they don't focus on the actual technicalities of war). It's not a huge distinction, though, since plots can (and are) recycled in all genres.

As for how you described your OCs, they sound like good ones, since they advance the plot, rather than absorb it. A good OC will make a fic better by injecting new elements, and testing the character's reactions. A bad one, I think, will become the focus to the exclusion of canon characters.

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	lots42 2003-09-22 11:03 pm UTC (link)
	Original bad guys is fine. Original good guys in fanfic ... not so fine. I like Buffy fanfics that feature, you know, Buffy. (Of course, good stories can violate whatever 'rules' they want) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	backfromspace 2003-09-22 12:20 am UTC (link)
	They're all very literate and long-winded. (Reply to this)

shoiryu
2003-09-22 12:44 am UTC (link)

Smack me if I'm wrong, but I've found in my research that in order to have a non-MS, your character has to have practically no beauty, no motivation, and NO uniqueness in their character at all. You basically end up with a paper thin thing that takes up little of the plotline.

*smacks* You're wrong. Listen up:

An OC can have power, looks, and attitude, AND be related to a main, well-beloved character somehow. I've got one who manages it nicely. Make a little effort, maybe you can pull it off too, instead of being stubborn.

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	iczer6 2003-09-22 01:57 am UTC (link)
	[You basically end up with a paper thin thing that takes up little of the plotline.] Because, God forbid that the readers DON'T want to read about your OC, but instead want to read about the canon characters. Icz (Reply to this)(Parent)

	lots42 2003-09-22 11:05 pm UTC (link)
	My first reaction in seeing a fic where we find a canon character's unknown relation is to run screaming and cursing god... I'm gunshy. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sewingmyfish 2003-09-22 02:25 am UTC (link)
	Hey, anyone know if the Sue-defender is writing a novel? I'm not sure, what with it only being mentioned ten times per message. (Reply to this)

	nevadafighter 2003-09-22 10:05 am UTC (link)
	OCs that aren't Mary Sues are ugly This is a fallacy that I've run into again and again in the never-ending MS debate—that in order to ensure an OC is not a MS all you have to do is make her ugly. And that is because of the other fallacy that if a character is beautiful or smart or powerful she's automatically a MS. (Reply to this)

limyaael
2003-09-23 05:15 am UTC (link)

Yeah, OC's can be good; I'd agree with some of the things she's saying. But really, even if the character does have beauty and power and special things out the wazoo, must they harp on it?

*big sparkly personal opinion hat*

I really don't care if a character's blonde or brown-haired or red-haired or emerald-eyed. What bearing does that have on the story? Mention it once, if you must, and then get it out of the way. I tend to jump ship on fanfics the moment I realize the author has talked about the character's hair or eyes, especially using synonyms like "cerulean" for "blue," twice in two paragraphs. (Aside: This applies to canon characters as well. I've stopped reading some fanfics that I otherwise really liked, because the author could not stop calling Harry "the emerald-eyed boy" or Draco "the cool blond," and so on).

I really don't care if a character has pretty sparkly powers, unless they're essential to the plot. Going on and on about how all the other characters are in awe of them all the time is silly. Except in stories where learning to control the magic is essential to the storyline, why keep saying, "Oh, yes, and Alexandra Caitlin Amanda can levitate! Don't forget she can levitate!"

Same thing with relation to canon characters. Calling her "Snape's sister" or "Legolas's daughter" every single time the character pops up also makes me run away. And unless the relationship is somehow essential to the plot, which it isn't most of the time, why keep it?

What turns an OC into a Mary Sue for me isn't so much what she has, but how much the author can't let me forget what she has.

/*big sparkly personal opinion hat*

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	Re: calluna 2003-09-23 07:37 am UTC (link)
	That's basically what I meant to say, but you said it a lot less wankily. ;) Alexandra Caitlin Amanda You saw my Sue Name Survey, didn't you? ;) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	limyaael 2003-09-23 05:12 pm UTC (link)
	Yep, saw the survey. I must say I was really surprised to see Amanda rank so high. I knew about the Cat names, and I've reported enough Sues of my own that were Alexandra/Alexis/Alexa/something like that, but Amanda seems like such an un-Suey name. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	delfeus 2003-09-25 11:14 am UTC (link)
	Where is this survey? curious (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	limyaael 2003-09-25 03:27 pm UTC (link)
	Here, a survey of the names of MS's reported at the MSR. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: delfeus 2003-09-25 11:37 pm UTC (link)
	bows Thank you! (Reply to this)(Parent)

delfeus
2003-09-25 10:45 am UTC (link)

That My main character is the type you can't help but love, but sometimes want to strangle because of her stubborness really stabbed me in the eye, and I instantly went to this person's website to read a fic. I couldn't find one, and had to run screaming after 30 seconds anyway, because of the horrible music that hunted me on every damn page. WHY DO PEOPLE PUT BACKGROUND MUSIC TO THEIR SITES? It's the fastest way to get me out of there. I can't really even cover it with winamp, because it still plays under that...

Who's Mozenrath? I don't follow Aladdin... but he sounds like a character I might like. :D

Anyway, you had good points in the long message.

And if I ever have children, I'm going to name them really awkward names.
Well, I hope she(?) doesn't, then. Poor kids.

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	Re: calluna 2003-09-25 08:39 pm UTC (link)
	She's got a seperate Mozenrath site, but she hasn't got any of her fics linked yet. I have copies, but I haven't read them yet. Anyhoo, Mozenrath is an attractive (say we fen ;) ) young evil sorcerer from the Aladdin TV series. Magic lifeforce stealing glove, undead servants, the whole nine yards. Needless to say, he's a huge Sue-magnet. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: delfeus 2003-09-25 11:16 pm UTC (link)
	Oh he's that guy. I remember drooling over him when I saw the first Aladdin movie many many years ago... I can easily believe him to be a Sue magnet. :D (Reply to this)(Parent)