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	ataniell93 2003-09-24 05:30 am UTC (link)
	Oh, yes, because everyone knows there's no such thing as evil people, just misunderstood ones. *siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh* Anyhow, what if, you know, a fantasy writer really believes in monarchy? laughs (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kookaburra 2003-09-24 05:34 am UTC (link)
	Yup. 'Cause, y'know, your novel could CHANGE TEH WURLD!!!111!!! BELIVE IN UR POWERZZZ! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rann 2003-09-24 05:34 am UTC (link)
	to not glorify monarchies, violence (well, he basically says that there's no excuse for ANY violence), Okay, that leaves the genre with... what... long descriptive scenes of meals? (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kookaburra 2003-09-24 05:36 am UTC (link)
	And lovingly caring for their horses while inciting the peasants to non-violent protests against the feudal system. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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	darthhellokitty 2003-09-24 06:44 am UTC (link)
	Tons of graphic sex? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

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kookaburra, 2003-09-24 06:46 am UTC

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amakath, 2003-09-24 09:42 am UTC

necronomist
2003-09-24 05:41 am UTC (link)

"well, he basically says that there's no excuse for ANY violence"

And we can find copious evidence from history that violence is never, ever necessary. Not at all. Certainly not against monarchies or dictatorships. I won't invoke Godwin's Law here, but how does the author think democracies came about? Sure, India comes to mind, but what about the United States and France? Of course, ideas and checks and balances to further violence come to mind.

You know the sad thing is? I kinda agree with him. Tolkien is fine, but why must every fantasy novel be the same as his? I believe someone complained in offline_wank about a literature grad student claiming that everything in fantasy was done by Tolkien. You can base your mythos on other non-Celtic cultures (which have *gasp* monarchies, tribal counsels, and other structures of government).

I better shut up or it is really going to sound wanky.

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	teratologist 2003-09-24 06:04 am UTC (link)
	Is it just me, or is that article just a half-assed, weak version of David Brin's article on Star Wars, which was a bit o' the wank in its own right but at least had the advantage of being brassy and coming first? (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) -

kookaburra, 2003-09-24 06:54 am UTC

diamonde
2003-09-24 06:31 am UTC (link)

*reaches for bad things lurking in the bottom of the fridge*

I live in a constitutional monarchy. So do New Zealanders and people in the UK. Seems to be working okay. It's certainly not ridiculous - at least our ballot boxes don't wash up on the frickin' beach.

Maybe he's getting 'fantasy' confused with 'ideal'. And 'everything other than Norman Europe' as sweet, unsexist and peace-loving. Walk a mile in my shoes, buddy, try working with Ancient Egyptian theology. Seth married four goddesses and killed Osiris twice, then fed his dick to a cocodile over kingship. And Ra's response was 'aaaw, that's my little boy'.

Oh, wait, I should cut the violence and monarchy out? Which would leave me with... semen and lettuce? No, wait, that bit's a little homophobic. Um...

....

.... Thoth liked to write things down.

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kookaburra, 2003-09-24 06:36 am UTC

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banal_o_rama, 2003-09-24 07:10 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

(no subject) - jerry_ds_girl, 2003-09-24 04:21 pm UTC

(no subject) - angstbunny, 2003-09-25 12:02 am UTC

(no subject) - diamonde, 2003-09-25 03:45 am UTC

zannechaos
2003-09-24 06:38 am UTC (link)
I just looooove how he pardons and excuses child abusers.

Everyone that commits a crime does so because of the situations they are in. In the case of history’s most evil people, most of us recognise that societies have made our own monsters! To take the example of a child abuser—the majority of them were victims of child abuse. Criminals are often victims;
Translation?:

"Now, now, now," he chides us like the misguided youths we are, "all you need is love -- but not the No-No Touchies. After all, all people are good and kind, and the ones who do naughty things just need a hug. Child abusers are really good people deep down, they just need to be understood. If we all understood each other, and realized that nobody ever really means to do bad things, then the world will be a happy, shiny place and we will all skip merrily through the fields of daisies."

monsters must therefore be more than just implacably evil beings, or for that matter grotesque and ugly. Critics often see the ugliness of monsters as a message that labels uglier people as subhuman, and people with deformities as being monstrous and evil (this is typified by deformed soap opera villains, especially in Ireland and in Britain). This is not a call for political correctness, but making a villain ugly is often, if not always, a copout by a writer who has failed to create adequate suspense and fear around that character. Some of us also know that beauty can often only be skin deep
"And children, you must always remember: in your striving for fantasy, you must never create a bad person, because all a bad person really is deep down is just a good person who's misunderstood. And you must never create anything which is not pleasing to our eye as we understand beauty, because everyone is beautiful deep down! Even the monsters! Because monsters are just misunderstood good people! See, children, there's no need to play with silly swords."

Royalty is not seen in the glorious light today that it once was. The majority of the world’s states are democratic, and democracy is an ideal that the majority say they believe in. Why then should fantasy promote what amounts to despotic or feudal monarchies?
"Every writer should keep at their desk a gigantic American Flag so they will remember to never write anything that might possibly speak out against the great and glorious political structure of Democracy! After all, anyone who's intelligent knows that democracy is the way to go. You must promote the Patriot Act through whatever you do, and that includes your fantasty writing! Especially because you shouldn't write violence. Monarchies are big, bad no-nos, and oh, dear me, they're just so violent! But a democracy is perfect, and everyone gets along, and all the naughty people get enough hugs to make them not be naughty anymore, and there's no need for all this silly drama. Remember, boys and girls! Be a good American, and if you're not an American, well, it sucks to be you. You need to create a fantasy world based off American politics so everyone can understand what a glorious country America is."

::tic:: I love my country, and I love my flag. I have precious little faith in my government (which I hold separately from my country) but daaaaaaayum.

It's like this guy ate Dubya, Barney, and a bucket of ~~crack~~ sugar, and shat out that essay.
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(no subject) - mariagoner, 2003-09-24 06:52 am UTC

(no subject) - zannechaos, 2003-09-24 07:04 am UTC

(no subject) - mariagoner, 2003-09-24 08:20 am UTC

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(no subject) - iczer6, 2003-09-24 07:09 am UTC

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(no subject) - fandom_bitch, 2003-09-24 07:23 am UTC

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(no subject) - iris, 2003-09-24 07:48 am UTC

(no subject) - zannechaos, 2003-09-24 08:40 am UTC

Not to mention... - htrismegistus, 2003-09-24 01:03 pm UTC

Re: Not to mention... - amasaglajax, 2003-09-24 04:11 pm UTC

Re: Not to mention... - mariagoner, 2003-09-25 05:23 am UTC

Re: Not to mention... - amasaglajax, 2003-09-25 03:26 pm UTC

(no subject) - sagralisse, 2003-09-24 07:02 pm UTC

(no subject) - diamonde, 2003-09-25 08:07 am UTC

(no subject) - sagralisse, 2003-09-25 03:27 pm UTC

Peh.
banal_o_rama
2003-09-24 07:12 am UTC (link)
Everybody knows that oligarchy is where it's at.
(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Peh. - kookaburra, 2003-09-24 07:39 am UTC

Re: Peh. - amakath, 2003-09-24 09:53 am UTC

Re: Peh. - kookaburra, 2003-09-24 09:55 am UTC

Re: Peh. - amasaglajax, 2003-09-24 04:12 pm UTC

fandom_bitch
2003-09-24 07:19 am UTC (link)
What the...?!

What an utter b00b. Can I vote him n00b of the day? Please? Good grief what a bunch of tripe. The ONLY thing I agree with him on is formulaic nature of much of the fantasy literature out there, but the same can be said of just about any genre out there.

As an archaeologist and historian, I can name and cite many instances where democracies have encouraged and aided in war and violence. There are many, many examples. Both ancient and modern. There may be no justification for it, but it exists.

Besides, there have been some damn fine monarchs out there in the past. And to me democracy is just another form of government no better nor worse than any other form of government. Sorry, it works for some places but not for others. :P

personally, I'll write about whtaever the hell I please and because I write for me mainly, I believe my work actually does ring true in many ways. However, if anyone gets anything out of my work then that's great. I'm a happy camper.

Hmmm...better quit while I'm ahead before I start sounding wanky myself. :P
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(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-24 07:43 am UTC

(no subject) - starherd, 2003-09-24 09:01 am UTC

shoiryu
2003-09-24 07:20 am UTC (link)
GOD. Where do we FIND these people?!
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(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-24 07:41 am UTC

(no subject) - shoiryu, 2003-09-24 08:13 am UTC

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(no subject) - starherd, 2003-09-24 09:05 am UTC

dawnswalker
2003-09-24 07:28 am UTC (link)
Can anyone here actually give an example of a fantasy story that doesn't involve violence, monarchy, or misogyny in some way? I know I can't...
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(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-24 07:42 am UTC

(no subject) - rann, 2003-09-29 10:29 am UTC

(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-29 10:43 am UTC

Re: - rann, 2003-09-29 10:50 am UTC

(no subject) - phosfate, 2003-09-24 07:14 pm UTC

(no subject) - sewingmyfish, 2003-09-24 07:37 pm UTC

(no subject) - dejla, 2003-09-24 07:52 pm UTC

(no subject) - dawnswalker, 2003-09-25 07:17 am UTC

Suspending disbelief and dat belief... - dejla, 2003-09-25 10:27 pm UTC

(no subject) - sagralisse, 2003-09-24 10:24 pm UTC

(no subject) - valarltd, 2003-09-25 02:44 am UTC

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(no subject) - rann, 2003-09-29 10:32 am UTC

(no subject) - sagralisse, 2003-09-29 03:33 pm UTC

ivyblossom
2003-09-24 07:52 am UTC (link)
Am I allowed to write about monarchies if I believe that democracy is a crock of shit? Maybe I should be writing fantasy fiction set in a communist utopia. And since when are most nations in the world democracies anyway?

I'm shocked that this guy isn't American. But he is Irish, so maybe that answers that little monarchy question.
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(no subject) - amasaglajax, 2003-09-24 04:13 pm UTC

(no subject) - imnsho, 2003-09-24 06:08 pm UTC

(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-25 03:09 am UTC

(no subject) - rann, 2003-09-29 10:33 am UTC

(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-29 10:41 am UTC

Re: - rann, 2003-09-29 10:48 am UTC

(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-29 10:51 am UTC

Re: - rann, 2003-09-29 10:53 am UTC

(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-29 10:56 am UTC

sorchar
2003-09-24 08:22 am UTC (link)
People like this are the reason God invented pointing and laughing.
(Reply to this)

On a completely unrelated note...
zannechaos
2003-09-24 09:06 am UTC (link)
kookaburra? I just now read the text on your icon.

I really shouldn't have done so while in the middle of taking a sip of coffee. ::wiping up the mess, still giggling hysterically::
(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: On a completely unrelated note... - kookaburra, 2003-09-24 09:27 am UTC

starherd
2003-09-24 09:20 am UTC (link)
> Most great literature, fantasy included, deals with life and the world around us. If authors
> examine their own lives, pay attention to the tiny details that they see, and then transform
> those details they create art.

Ironically, I agree with this bit. It's one of the reasons that I appreciate J. K. Rowling as an author; she has a *fantastic* grip on how kids mature. After reading so many books, written for either adults or children, where the young protagonists are portrayed as just plain brainless... the Harry Potter books really stand out. If Ms. Rowling didn't have kids of her own, though, I bet that the books wouldn't have nearly the same level of attraction on that front.

But if only the guy would stop when he had a valid point...

> I will be the first to admit that my earliest writings were copies. The reason for this (and the
> reason it took me three years to publish work in Wyvern’s) is that I had no idea how to write
> stories that had a “soul.”

*smacks forehead*
...Um, I haven't read the guy's work, but if this essay is any indication...
I really don't think that writing stories with "soul" was the problem...

He really sounds like someone tried to give him a kind review, and this is what he got out of it.
I wouldn't worry - I doubt that we'll ever see him produce anything to be hailed as a great work. Though we might have to suffer though his repeated attempts, we at least now know his name, and can avoid him like the plague.

Wait, do plagues count as violence? damn.
(Reply to this)(Thread)

oh, and... - starherd, 2003-09-24 09:24 am UTC

<- Kibi, LJ
(Anonymous)
2003-09-24 11:07 am UTC (link)
He has some points which ultimately void itself in the context.

First, he is wrong. What about Steven Erikson's Malazan series? What about the Song of Ice and Fire? Specially that has an EXTREMELY ugly character, who - surprise - is not evil. Still has violence and bad monarchies ^_^

If you only read heroic fantasy novels, then you will most likely come to the conclusion that everay plot has been done and overdone. However, this essayist obviously did not read books like the abovementioned. He - thus - simply has no clue about recent fantasy novels and thus should not make an essay like that. Its ridiculous.

True - he has some points. I hate the "evil = ugly" thing myself. Its stupid. Very very stupid. A lot of fantasy novels, true, follow the typical patterns he mentions.

However - he does advocate the same, he just wants another pattern(ie anto-monarchy for some reason, no violence, and, good gracious, no misogony).

First, he needs to learn that the worlds you create do not have to reflect realizy. While based upon reality(not neccessairily, as unicornjelly demonstrates), it does NOT mean that bad things in that world are approved by you. Furthermore, bad things happen. Even our oh so good democracies do a lot of them, and corruption is everywhere.

Fantasy should, by all means, never be just a propaganda-vessel that merely says that monarchies are evil and democraZy is the only true way.

So, in one story I am writing, an empire arises through plotting, war, and the brains of its empress. Oh my. Does that means the message of the books is "overthrow democracy!!!111one"? Of course not. However, as each world is different, different solutions apply.

Even the glorified democracies wage war - in fact, they SHOULD - thats actually the point of it. Democracy does not mean to tolerate every opinion. It only tolerates things that are tolerant, ie obeys the definition of tolerance. Hence, democracies made itself the JOB to spread democracy. And just look at modern history how they do it - how they only CAN do it. War. Which means violence, since the smart bombs usually DO kill people. A lot of them actually.

And take misogony... Why is it so bad to portray that -without of course havign the goody-two-shoes democrats appearing changing everything in two days?

I don't like that. Worlds are different. Thats a fact. Worlds are not perfect either. perfection is, from a writers point, boring.

I really see why his stories suffer and lack soul. Worlds have flaws, just like our own. He tries to create a perfect, oh so politically correct world. Of course that has no soul. (recently, there was a book out here that included the creation of a perfect world with no drugs, no crime, no war - eternal piece. Someone altered history again and again and created that. Obviously the people were...not people anymore. They were machines, they lacked a soul deep inside, as people are not peaceful).

A good writer should make a flawed world WITHOUT correcting everything in the course of his novels. These corrections would only let the novel appear to be propaganda for our current system. Which is not the bst ever and never will be, as no system will ever be perfect - since humans are not perfect. And never will be =D

Flaws make a world alive. Only flaws have that power. Perfection ruins that.
(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: <- Kibi, LJ - (Anonymous), 2003-09-24 11:16 am UTC

Re: <- Kibi, LJ - zannechaos, 2003-09-24 11:42 am UTC

Re: <- Kibi, LJ - (Anonymous), 2003-09-24 11:53 am UTC

Re: <- Kibi, LJ - amasaglajax, 2003-09-24 04:18 pm UTC

Re: <- Kibi, LJ - teratologist, 2003-09-24 05:02 pm UTC

Re: <- Kibi, LJ - zannechaos, 2003-09-25 03:00 am UTC

Re: <- Kibi, LJ - valarltd, 2003-09-25 03:12 am UTC

Re: <- Kibi, LJ - sagralisse, 2003-09-25 04:44 pm UTC

ailei
2003-09-24 05:31 pm UTC (link)
As both a fan and a writer of the fantasy genre, I'd like to point out the concept of Jungian archetypes. Remember those? Remember the way *all* mythology and folklore the world over centers around certain universal concepts and themes? Hm. Gee, Tolkien = Kalevala = collective human genetic memory = no big fucking surprise we see the same themes over and over. The human mind and animus is programmed in a certain way. Check out of the species if you don't like it, Mr. Pretentious Essay D00d. Of course, that's no excuse for flat-out sloppy writing and world-building, but complaining because people center a story around defeating a great evil with a central band of heroic characters is just flat out silly.

Heh, I live up to my icon this morning. I obviously require more caffeine.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - ataniell93, 2003-09-25 03:02 am UTC

swimming upstream again.
sagralisse
2003-09-24 08:42 pm UTC (link)
I'm very picky about my fantasy. I cringe at the crappy stuff that is structured like a RPG or a video game. And, maybe unfairly, I cringe whenever an author thanks her online friends in the acknowledgements. So I have to be fair and say that I agree with most of this guy's points.

I was mulling over some of the same issues 15 years ago. Tolkien's legacy has been a mixed blessing. His formula worked for him because he breathed so much of his own love and life and pain into it. Without that it's like shackles... trudge trudge... omg elves! We've gotta kill the Evil minions... cleverly defeat the big Evil dude and save the world! Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Tolkien was a big ol' honkin monarchist. No question. His King isn't just the government but the divine intermediary between his kingdom and God. IMO monarchies are fine, but I don't believe that the Big Cheese has tapped anyone with the divine right to rule a people. And I don't know that much about history, but it seems like that when kings or anyone else has bought into that way of thinking, they've tended to treat their people like shit.

You can argue that capitalistic societies are no great improvement and we could have a debate and all, but I'd rather read a story that explores something different. I'd rather see authors who know that they can drop the "return of the king" plotline from their formula. I want authors that can write The Disposessed.

I'm also tired of implacable Evil in fantasy. I've seen a lot of fantasy with antagonists that were just as flat as Tolkien's Sauron... but worse, since at least LOTR doesn't pretend that Sauron is human or has a personality.

This has nothing to do with whether we should try to redeem child molestors, it has to do with writing antagonists who are bad for a believable reason, and not just so they can make the hero and heroine look hawt.

My heart sank when I attempted to read Anne Bishop's latest book. Her bad guys practically screamed "We must crush all the witches because they are wonderful and powerful and we're a bunch of mysogynistic power-hungry assholes." I mean, for fuck sake, she could at least go read some of the rhetoric from a couple of witch trials or something and make 'em an eensie bit convincing.

We could debate the death penalty and whether some asshole should get a couple of years off of their prison sentence because of the bad things Daddy did, but I'd rather read a story that explores evil in a believable way. Give me a Red Dragon or an Angus Thermopyle or a bunch of Tepper's whacked out Professors. That's what I want to read.

His point on legitimate violence goes hand in hand with the implacable evil. True Evil can never be redeemed. It has to be endured, overcome, destroyed. Tolkien's characters hunt orcs. They kill all that they are capabale of killing. No parley, no mercy. Because they are implacably evil, any violence against them is legitimate violence. The good characters can be all glorious in battle and never worry that they're killing somebody that has a home and a family and who might have been coerced into joining the wrong side.

Tolkien treats his humans with much more compassion, but the point is easily missed. It is too easy for fantasy to become D&D. I've read some books that drew influence from the Samauri traditions where the body count was unbelievably high... just to make the hero look super cool with a sword.

No, I don't want a genre about people having lunch. But if the characters are going to kill, their violent acts should affect them in a believable way. Give me Tad William's Simon at the Battle on the Ice: young, competent, deadly... and totally aghast at the reality of his first battle. That's something I will remember. That's a story that turns glorified violence on it's ear.

Anyway, Wallace isn't terribly eloquent, but I don't think his essay deserves as much derision as it's received so far.
(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: swimming upstream again. - (Anonymous), 2003-09-24 10:54 pm UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - eljuno, 2003-09-24 11:12 pm UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - (Anonymous), 2003-09-25 12:25 am UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - sagralisse, 2003-09-24 11:56 pm UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - (Anonymous), 2003-09-25 12:29 am UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - sagralisse, 2003-09-25 12:48 am UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - ataniell93, 2003-09-25 03:03 am UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - sagralisse, 2003-09-25 03:30 am UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - ataniell93, 2003-09-25 08:24 pm UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - sagralisse, 2003-09-25 11:49 pm UTC

You too? - limyaael, 2003-09-25 01:05 am UTC

Re: You too? - sagralisse, 2003-09-25 02:44 am UTC

Re: You too? - iczer6, 2003-09-25 03:27 am UTC

Re: You too? - sagralisse, 2003-09-25 04:24 am UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - diamonde, 2003-09-25 04:21 am UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - sagralisse, 2003-09-25 05:01 am UTC

Re: swimming upstream again. - diamonde, 2003-09-25 08:50 am UTC

(no subject) - rann, 2003-09-29 10:37 am UTC

(no subject) - kookaburra, 2003-09-29 10:40 am UTC

Re: - rann, 2003-09-29 10:44 am UTC

(no subject) - sagralisse, 2003-09-29 03:31 pm UTC

(no subject) - sagralisse, 2003-09-29 03:13 pm UTC

limyaael
2003-09-24 08:48 pm UTC (link)
God. God. I wish I could think that was a parody.

Remember if you want to be historically accurate, that even during times of male dominance women had considerable power in the household if not in government; but is historical accuracy important in fantasy?

*Limyaael smacks the dumbshit*

Ever heard of a little subgenre called "historical fantasy?" Guy Gavriel Kay and George R. R. Martin, to name two of the best writers I can think of, write it. They do have powerful woman characters, but they don't necessarily have them all riding around in armor and becoming queens, and the ones who want to do that face considerable obstacles. Fantasy can be based on a historical environment, and if that's the case, you do want to follow the standards that were in place in whatever society you're working on. Now, you could take this in a different direction and say that so much fantasy doesn't need to be based on medieval models, which I fully agree with. But if you're basing it on that, you'd better do some farking research.

The part about royalty...good honking god. I write fantasy where I make fun of royalty, but that's because it's a parody. Insisting that fantasy societies follow modern political systems and tackle modern political issues is a good way to get message fantasy, the kind of thing where the author really should have written a pamphlet instead. "Women are Good! Christianity is Good! Wicca is Good! Family Values are Good!" and on and on and on and on in the other varieties until I want to claw my eyeballs out. How is slavishly following the standards of reality any better than slavishly following the standards of Tolkien?

Besides, I don't know about anyone else, but I get quite a lot of preaching in my history and literature classes; I'm not looking for it when I read fantasy, and finding it makes me stop reading. Or throw the book against the wall.

Eeeurgh. One of the things I love most about fantasy is that it can just merrily hop over this bullshit and try to present a society where, yes, women are equal or people live in peace or don't live under any form of government now known- and try to depict that instead of getting bogged down in depicting the struggle to get there. And instead, it should be chained to enforcing the values that get preached all the time anyway?

Yeah. Whatever.

*Limyaael gives into temptation and smacks the dumbshit again*

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snowball
2003-09-25 09:24 am UTC (link)
Everything I want to say has already been said, except...

What the fuck is it with that guy and exclamation marks? They're to be used SPARINGLY, people, and they're almost never acceptable in formal writing. It just looks DUMB. *mutters*
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starkeymonster
2003-09-25 08:23 pm UTC (link)
This wank makes me want to bust out some intense counter wank of my own. I'll see his wanky "I'm so elite" mention of Vladimir Propp and raise a degree in folklore and mythology (with bonus gratuitous mention that the degree is from Harvard).

*fondles boxes of folklore texts lovingly*
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opera142
2003-09-26 01:28 am UTC (link)
"Remember if you want to be historically accurate, that even during times of male dominance women had considerable power in the household if not in government; but is historical accuracy important in fantasy?"

And no one wants to read a story about a character triumphing despite circumstance, situation and social pressures.
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jfpbookworm
2003-09-27 05:56 am UTC (link)
This sounds like chapter 1 of yet another "why science fiction is better than fantasy" wank.
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