*sniffs* Ahh some good old-fashioned Gundam Wing wank
Ok as you learned from Cyrelia who posted here, this took place on GWML(where you could once set your watch to the wanky posts). It simmered over months then suddenly exploded so i've tried to cut it down to the best parts.
It started out as just a discussion of I like relena because of *fill in the blank* and I dislike relena beacause *fill in the blank*



Cynthia: **Honestly, the way Heero interacts with Relena is far more intimate than the way he does so with Duo. Not that he's not friendly with Duo, or at least as friendly as someone as stoic as him can be, but he seems much more at ease around Relena. And this from a very objective point of view, since I like both 1xR and 1x2.
**Relena is the main character of GW. The Gundam pilots are all supporting characters. Main characters too, but with less importance than Relena in the plot.

Leela: You can't be saying that Relena is more important than Heero???

The entire thing is about him! The show is named after his Gundam!

A-chan: Oh I agree entirely. To me, Relena is QUITE unecessary to the show.
If you think about it, her role would've been easily replaced by
Noin, or Zechs, or someone else. It would've saved a lot of us huge
headaches if she wasn't put in it.

Cynthia: That's because you don't like her, so of course you would think she isn't necessary. However, there are anime characters I don't like, but I still recognize their importance. If Relena weren't the most important character of Gundam Wing, the entire ending theme would not feature only her. Of course the GW boys are also main characters, but Relena is *the* main character. You can determine a character's importance in a series by whether they are featured in the series' opening and ending themes, and how much they are featured in them. Basically, Relena is the main mover of the series, and the GW boys are the enactors, if you will.

Leela: *drops jaw
Oh dear god you poor delusional person. Heero is the main character. Relena just helps the plot. The ending credits are ridiculous and have NOTHING to do with her role in the show. They don't even have anything to do with the show. I can't believe you'd place her before the pilots and even Zechs and Treize. That's just silly.

Himura Shuuichi: Who, man, relax. I could call *you* delusional for thinking that Relena is unnessecary to the series, (The show is very political and Relena happens to be a politician, whereas Noin and Zechs are soldiers) but I'm not, am I?
Heero is, indeed, one of the main characters. However *so is Relena*. Deal with it.
As they are both leads, there is a reason plenty of people like to pair them up.
Since you don't like her, of course you wouldn't realize why she a lead. She is a lead because she is the one who becomes the mover of the political world, where the g-boy's enable her to make the changes by breaking down the power structures that are in her way. The g-boys just happen to be more visible in the way the work. (politics don't generally entail blowing up buildings, unlike terrorism...)

Dragon
She's a main character, she's nessecary, deal with it.

Cynthia: Look, I can accept your opinion, but don't start with the insults. Otherwise, don't expect to be treated with the slighest bit of respect. You can say whatever you want, but any expert on the matter will tell you that a character's importance is determined by how much they appear in both the opening theme and the ending theme of a series. Especially the ending theme. Note that in Gundam X, Tifa and Garrod appear the most in the ending, hence their importance. In YST, the troopers appear in the ending theme, hence they are the most important characters of the series. Of course, you may not like this because you don't like Relena, but you can't deny a character's importance based solely on your opinion of them. If that were the case, then to me Keiko wouldn't have any importance in YYH, even though I know for a fact that she does.


Since you don't like her, of course you wouldn't realize why she a lead. She is a lead because she is the one who becomes the mover of the political world, where the g-boy's enable her to make the changes by breaking down the power structures that are in her way. The g-boys just happen to be more visible in the way the work. (politics don't generally entail blowing up buildings, unlike terrorism...)

**Exactly my point. She is the main mover of all of Gundam Wing. She is a more major character than Heero because of her role as a politician, but Heero is also one of the main characters

Leela: Ok. Put it this way then... Why is the show called GUNDAM WING if not primarilly about the pilots and imparticular, Heero. I don't see it called Relena Peaccraft, Queen of the World. She is an essential element to the show, I understand that but she isn't the driving force of the show. She wouldn't be so annoying if she was.

Cynthia: That would be an awfully strange and ambiguous title for an anime. As for why, the show centers around Gundams, and Heero is one of the primary characters. But contrary to everything in the plot centering around Heero, it in fact centers around Relena. Heero is *a* main character, but he does practically all that he does either for Relena or thinking of her. She is basically the main focus of the show. And why would Relena have an entire ending to herself, without the appearance of even Heero, were she not *the* main character of the show.

leela: Oh that's bull. Most of what you said isn't true. I'm not gonna go through points cause I can't be stuffed but you're looking at it one sidedly. I don't think the credits have jack to do with anything. In Neon Genesis, the end credits show Rei but there can be no argument that that show is primarilly about Shinji.

Cynthia: Ok then, you want to start with the insults? Fine. I think your opinion is bull too, put frankly. I'm not going to restate my arguments, that would be a waste of time and, in this case, effort as well. But I know for a fact that any expert will tell you the exact same thing.

Lady Douji: I was just sitting back watching this trainwreck but this was bugging me. Exactly WHAT ending sequence of Gundam X are you talking about? All GX has is a little window on the left hand side of the screen showing clips from that days episode, while credits take up more than 50% of the screen. That's IT! The only ending change at all is they go from an English version of the song to a Japanese version.

Cynthia: Yeah, but they don't show all the scenes of an episode in the ending. In fact, it seems they focus on the scenes of Garrod and Tifa, in the ending.

Lina: If Relena is a main character...than so are all the guys and Zechs and
Lady Une and Noin and Treize. Simple as that. The main character is
USUALLY a single person or thing the plot revolves around IE.
protagonist. Often there is a counter character IE antagonist or
villain who is also a main character or rather close to being one.
Characters who share as much screen time (or paper time or movie time
or whatever one wishes to call it) yet DO NOT have the plot revolving
around them and who help further the plot and develop the main character
are SUPPORT characters. It is NOT uncommon for the story to follow them
for large sections of time as what they do will later affect the MAIN
character.

The plot of Gundam Wing revolves around Heero, how he changes and grows,
what he does, and how he changes the world by growing. There is NO
doubt that Relena SUPPORTS Heero in these things. Yet Duo also SUPPORTS
Heero's changes. As do Trowa and Catherine. Eventually Zechs does the
same. And on and on.

Lastly, the creators of Gundam Wing have stated (many times in many
interviews) that Heero is their main character. And there is 1 SOLID
NEVER ARGUE WITH IT RULE in CANNON.....what the creator or original
author says GOES. Otherwise you have an AU. Luckily for us, the
creators have also repeatedly said they never wrote the characters with
any pairings in mind or even an sexual preference. This gives us TONS
of leeway. Something that doesn't happen very often in many fandoms. Sigh.

Cynthia: **I never said Heero's not a main character, same thing for the other pilots. But *the* main character, if one should be named, is Relena. The plot seems to revolve more around Relena than Heero to me. Heero is like the others, just a Gundam pilot fighting for the colonies **They *all* grow and change. But the show seems to focus more on Relena's personal growth, especially in maturity and responsibility. You may say that everyone supports Heero, but he's the one who has the most changing to do, next to Trowa.
**Whatever people tell me about what the creators of GW supposedly said, I really don't believe any of it. I will find an interview transcript on the internet if I want to confirm something. I've heard half a ton of rumors from the fans, each more ridiculous than the next.

Lina: Then go look it up. It was published in several places a few years ago.
Not sure where to find it anymore. (Gundam Wing isn't as hot as it used
to be. Sigh) And I am NOT going through over 300 Animericas. Simple
FACT is that Heero is the MAIN character. HE gets more screen time,
more plot involvement, the characters revolve around him, interact with
HIM the most, and when the moment comes that the world hangs in the
balance....HE is the one who changes the course of history. NOT Relena.

As for growth....not sure how far she grows. By the end of the series,
she still hasn't given up and realized enough to respect Heero for who
he is. She has a VERY idealized vision of the world UNTIL Endless
Waltz. I will admit she FINALLY grows up a bit there. The whole teddy
bear things proves she has a LONG way to go before becoming as mature as
the other characters. But then she is young and pretty much the only
one without a TON and a half of pain and tragedy in their lives.

Heero on the other hand has learned to depend on others, accept them as
they are, the value of human life, about friendship, how one person can
matter, how to trust in others, and that sometimes there are things
worth dying for besides the mission. That's a lot for a guy who used to
think Mission was everything.

Do I say she is NOT the main character because I dislike her? Actually
no. Over the years, I have come to see Relena as a valuable part of the
Gundam Wing universe even if I think she should be slapped for some of
the things she does. But then I think the guys need to be slapped
sometimes too. I have a Bachelor's Degree in English and am working on
my Master's. For my classes I have to discuss and analysis MAIN
characters, why they are MAIN characters, who the SUPPORTING characters
are, how they interact with the MAIN character, how the plot is affected
by all this...and a WHOLE lot more. It's a lot of work without much
room for mistakes.

Now, I've been in this fandom a long time...long enough to know that
some people will NEVER accept something they don't want to. That's true
for any fandom. I could dig through all my magazines and come up with
the article, scan it in, and you still wouldn't believe it. Why?
Because you don't want to. There are plenty of series out there with
female main characters. Unfortuantly, Gundam Wing is NOT one of them.
Relena is the main FEMALE character but NOT the MAIN character. I'm
not saying this because I want it to be so. I'm not saying it be
argumentative or cause problems. I am saying it because it is simple
FACT. Cannon might be unpopular, but it is still CANNON. I depise
Miaka getting Tamohome...she SO doesn't deserve him. But it is CANNON.
And so I have to accept it as FACT. Of course, I write lots of AUs. ;)

Cynthia: **I could just do a search for a Gundam Wing creator interview on Google. *shrugs* But I said it before, the ending theme begs to differ on just who the main character is. Let me remind you that not a single other character (except the animals) appear in this ending, just Relena. To give a really concrete example, just look at YuGiOh. Bakura is in every opening theme, but none of the ending themes. Because although he is one of the main villains, he is not a main character. Heero may change things by fighting, but Relena is the one to voice the beliefs of the Gundam pilots. In that sense, she is more important to me. There's no denying that politicians have more influence than soldiers, after all.
**Just a second here. Haven't you ever had a boyfriend who gave you things? Including winning/buying you a stuffed toy? That was pretty much the meaning of Heero's gift: his support, and his love. As for Relena not growing, well, seeing as she goes from being the spoiled, pampered Minister's daughter to a well respected politician in her own right, I'd say she grows quite a lot. Getting to a position of power requires wisdom, and maturity. I don't understand what you mean about Relena respecting Heero for who he is. If there's anything the ending of the series told me, it's that Heero's as human as the rest of us. If anything, I would say that Relena is the only one who understands him almost completely. She may have an idealistic vision of the world, btw, but then everyone who isn't a sadist does too. Everyone wants to believe in the goodness of people, especially in times of war.
**You may have been in this fandom long, but so have I. Don't imply things about people when you don't know them. After all the bullshit I've heard from obsessed GW 1x2 fans (I'm a fan of it to, but I'm not delusional, unlike most of those fans), of course I want some real proof when it comes to anyone claiming anything factual about GW. You should understand that. If you can't present any proof, then don't claim anything, and least of all undermine people who don't believe you without your proof. Because they're right not to. You and I just don't agree about Relena being the main character of GW, and we can each have our own opinions, but just stop implying insulting things.

Lina: So you are basing your arugment on who appears in the credits?! Should
I list all the shows who have DEAD characters as main attractions for
their credits? Or characters who haven'teven shown up yet? Or
characters who were in season one but leave for a season? Or the
credits which have NOTHING to do with the series at all? Who or what
appears in the credits does not make them a main character.
Actually...the whole mess was started by soldiers...and one particular
assassin who killed a politican
1. Heero is NOT her boyfriend. CANNON clearly states (as said by the
creator) that NONE of the characters were written with a pairing in
mind. Therefore, one canNOT call Heero her boyfriend. Anymore than one
can state the Duo and Heero are in love. We can assume and are given
leeway by the creator saying he does not mind if we make our own
pairings...but CANNON is still that they are not together.

2. By tearing up the note and demanding next time he see her in person,
she shows she STILL does not understand Heero.
Or just him showing his friendship and appreciation for what she has
done and tried to do.
Now I have been calm and stating facts and you go and get all insulting.
Which is usally the last defense of someone who knows they don't have a
leg to stand on. You present your proof which (by your own above stated
standards) is no more valid than mine yet dismiss mine as being the
invalid one. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways.

You have not refuted anything I have said other than to insult me and
imply I am a rabid fan. In fact, in the last year my love of Gundam
Wing has faded due to people wanting Fannon (FAN cannon) to override
REAL, FACTUAL CANNON. (Something I am currently trying to write a
thesis on and this whole discussion would make a wonderful chapter)

Now you say you can do a google search and then imply you will not do
so. That tells me a great deal.

If you cannot find something solid to base your supposition on, do NOT
insult me. It is not my fault. If you cannot be civil, please stop
posting.


Cynthia: Most of those shows would likely mean nothing to me, so you probably shouldn't. I don't necessarily like most of the series that most people like. For example, Inuyasha is nothing more than a bad mix of DB and YYH to me. I am telling you, Relena's appearance in the ending credits, and the fact that she appears completely alone aside from the animals, makes her the major character of the series.
**Yes, but if it hadn't been a politician, it wouldn't have been such a big thing. And yes, soldiers do go to war, but always in representation of something or someone, and the ones who have the real influence are the politician
**Perhaps not, but they both like each other a lot. That much is obvious. Need I mention the way he looks at her in ep 48, before he pushes her away? That tender look in his eyes. And the many times that he tells her that he is nothing compared to her. I've never heard the boy lavish compliments that way on much of anyone else, so obviously, something's going on. Either way, you know what I mean. You give people you like/love gifts. Teddy bears are among them
**I really don't know you came to that conclusion, but I don't agree. If anything, Heero is starting to show even more how much he does care for her.
**I didn't see him handing out teddy bears to the other Gundam pilots and everyone else who ever tried to help him.
**Calm huh? Next you're gonna say you were being polite when you called what I said "a load of bull"? Please. I did not insult you, but you do not have the right to assume anything about me without knowing me. Or if you do, keep it to yourself. And did you even read what I just said? I said that I have a different opinion from yours and we can each have our own opinions. I don't criticize people's opinions so long as they respect mine. And calling mine "a load of bull" isn't really being respectful of someone. *I* am the one who was calm before you threw the first insult at me. Btw, how was anything I said insulting? I just told you not to claim anything to me without showing me the proof. That's hardly an insult, just a matter of fact. And I suppose you think it's insulting for me to tell you not to undermine people who don't believe a claim unsupported by proof?
**Hey, if the shoe fits... But I am not the one who put the shoe on your foot. I was talking about fans in general. It's a well-known fact that GW 1x2 fans are rabid, for the most part. I don't know if you're a 1x2 fan, and I don't know if you're like most of them, but most of them hate everything about Relena and think Duo is the most perfect person on the planet, and that he and Heero have a lot in common, so they'd make a great couple. Personally, I don't see any similarities between the two aside from them both being Gundam pilots, and skilled ones at that. In fact, I like 1x2 because of their differences. They complement one another. And I like 1xR because they are a lot alike and understand one another, therefore I think they'd make a great couple. In case you misunderstood, which it seems that you did, I was not talking about you. Heck, I wasn't even thinking about you, since I thought you'd be backing up your word with proof in the next email you sent.
**Oh really? Please find any quote which would actually back up what you are, yet again, assuming about me.
**You were the one who first insulted me! Unless you don't think calling what someone says "a load of bull" insulting! Please, get over yourself! I did not insult anyone first, yet I keep receiving insult after insult from you.

Lina: Please show me where in my response I used those words. Better
yet...don't. It has become quite obvious you will drag this into a
flame war and no matter how often your supposition is disproved, you
ignore the evidence. I do not have the paitence anymore to deal with
rabid fangirls. Not of any kind. You have devolved this into insults,
one of which was directed toward an entire section of the fandom.

As has been stated, credits mean nothing. More often than not, they are
simple fanservice. And "any expert" worth a grain of salt would never
say who appears in the credits determines who is the main character or
even who is important in a series. An expert would know from simple
experience such a thing is not true. You refuse to listen or
acknowledge anyone having a valid point except your own.

I will no longer respond to this subject. It is too ridiculous and a
waste of time. Fannon is NOT Cannon and never will be. Not matter how
much some people may want.

So dear flamer, I leave you to your rant. Totally wrong though it is.

Good night dear readers and good luck. You'll need it.

Mai: To which Cynthia Ahmar replies:

>>**Most of those shows would likely mean nothing to me, so you probably shouldn't. I don't necessarily like most of the series that most people like. For example, Inuyasha is nothing more than a bad mix of DB and YYH to me. I am telling you, Relena's appearance in the ending credits, and the fact that she appears completely alone aside from the animals, makes her the major character of the series.<<

So... to understand this... the main character is identified by how often they appear in the credits, particularly the closing credits, only on shows you *like*? And if the show is one you do not like, who is in the credits makes no difference to who is the main character. Forgive me if I've misunderstood the argument, but this strikes me as hypocricy.

The significance of closing credits is minimal for one main reason: very few people watch them. This is the time when people are flipping through their guides to find out what's on next, or refilling their snacks before the next show. Even the opening credits are a questionable guideline, because the footage used there can as often be teasers of the show's eventual direction as an introduction of the leads.

Further, if we base who is a main character upon how often they appear in the credits, Zechs and Treize have almost no significance whatsoever, as they only have one brief shot in the opening. I can see the argument that Zechs is a supporting role, but I would dearly love to see anyone explain how the GW storyline could have happened at all without Treize.

I don't like Relena, but I won't discount her significance to the series. Yes, she is the female lead, and her presence is vital to the story. But she is not *the* main character, nor is she completely indespensible. Sylvia Noventa has been brought up before, and I believe that character could have accomplished similar ends as Relena with only minor variations of the script. The only things Relena could do that Sylvia couldn't are claim the Sanq throne and have that ultimately futile argument with Zechs at the end.

The show is called Gundam Wing for a reason. The majority of the air time focuses on Heero for a reason. At best, it could be argued that GW is an ensemble show, in which case all the lead characters share equal importance, and there is no single "main" character. Even that I would find hard to support.

Cynthia: **It doesn't really have anything to do with the shows I like, except that all the shows I like are serious. For example, show me Inuyasha, Ranma, Slayers or Azumanga Daioh and I'll have the urge to run away screaming my head off. I like things with a lot of depth, and that can even be seen as depressing, like TB and X. I like shows that make me think. I'm sure there are plenty of serious shows that I've never seen (and perhaps don't/wouldn't even like), but I have noticed that a major trend in serious series is that major characters always appear in the opening theme, and the most important ones are in the ending theme. There's the significant example of YuGiOh. Bakura is Yuugi's friend, but the spirit inside his Millenium Ring is evil and most of the time controlling him, so while he is in the opening as one of the major villains (present in all seasons), he is in none of the ending themes.
**I dunno about that. I really love endings, and I'm sure there must be other people who do too. But about the teasers, why do you think they'd show teasers of the main characters?
**They are important characters, just not major characters.
** *shrugs* That's your opinion. I don't share it. Least of all about Sylvia. The girl struck me as being a lot weaker than Relena.
</lj>
The admins killed the thread shortly after that and I think one person got banned for ignoring their warning. And trying to think of some comments to help illustrate the wank, but I'm tired and my brain has shut down for the evening. *crosses fingers hoping the lj-cut tags work properly*