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w**k is a four-letter word ([info]esorlehcar) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2004-02-19 10:59:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Since no one else has written this up yet:

guardian_writer, in a now-locked post, stated that even though she writes slash, she is against gay marriage and doesn't believe in homosexuality.

[info]bnfshavemorefun (wayfairer on LJ) responded at length in her own journal, stating quite eloquently why she finds guardian_writer's position offensive and hypocritical.

Most of the many responses to Aja's post are positive, but there's definitely wank to be found:

See [info]lightnote_blend compare homosexuality to pedophilia, wax poetic about the grand 12,000-year tradition of heterosexual marriage, and claim that Aja stating her own opinion in her own livejournal proves she's against free speech! The mean-spirited and completely irrevelant jab at Aja's fiction is just icing.

See [info]deathkiss explain that accepting two men kissing is not the same as letting them pervert the holy tradition of matrimony!

See [info]ceresi claim that Aja should not name the person she's responding to, because Aja is a famous person and other people in fandom might think less of guardian_writer because Aja disagrees with her (this one's not so much wanky as baffling - how exactly is Aja responsible that people might think less of someone for something they themselves publicly said?)

And then see guardian_writer
whine completely illogically in her own LJ implying that her First Amendment rights have been violated:
Well.
I never thought I’d get wanked for my opinion. That’s nice to know that Amendments only apply when they agree with your means. Beyond that I can’t say anything that won’t be considered wanky or whatever. Yes I’m upset, no I’m not crying and I don’t think that the response I’m getting is merited. And I’ve never wanked one single person here for their beliefs. I’ve stayed silent, against my own judgments. That being said...

I’ve always seen it as, if you are opinionated enough to state your opinion on the net, no one else is going to change your mind, so why even bother with debates for the most part...its like beating your head into brick wall.

I’m taking a break for a while until this blows over. I’m sorry that I’ve offended people, that was never my intention. I still respect your opinions even though it feels like you do not respect mine.



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[info]panthea
2004-02-19 07:41 pm UTC (link)
That’s nice to know that Amendments only apply when they agree with your means.

Yes, because "disagreeing with your opinion in a public forum" totally = "restricting your First Amendment right to free speech." (I dunno, I'm just guessing that's the amendment she's referring to. Maybe Aja tried to quarter a soldier in her house against her will?)

Beyond that I can’t say anything that won’t be considered wanky or whatever.

"Beyond" that?

I love (read: boggle at) these people who are all "yay I can say whatever I want I have First Amendment rights!" and then, when someone publicly disagrees with them, they're all "omg yr trying to censor me!!!!" No, dear, she's just exercising her First Amendment rights.

Not to mention, the internet /= America. Get it right.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 07:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mirabellawotr, 2004-02-19 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cesare, 2004-02-19 08:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 08:43 pm UTC
... - [info]cesare, 2004-02-19 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2004-02-19 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-19 08:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]combledore, 2004-02-19 10:32 pm UTC
Re: - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-19 10:42 pm UTC
... - [info]mooncalf, 2004-02-20 02:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ehann, 2004-02-19 08:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greekhoop, 2004-02-19 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-19 10:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadda, 2004-02-19 10:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mrslovett, 2004-02-20 02:00 am UTC
... - [info]greekhoop, 2004-02-20 06:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]adolfa, 2004-02-20 09:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iamtheenemy, 2004-02-20 01:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ehann, 2004-02-20 04:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2004-02-20 06:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]liarliar, 2004-02-19 11:26 pm UTC

[info]stubbleglitter
2004-02-19 07:42 pm UTC (link)
Yes I’m upset, no I’m not crying

Thank God she gave us that assurance! I will sleep easier tonight.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:15 pm UTC
Dead Baby Icon! - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-19 10:26 pm UTC

pooka
2004-02-19 07:55 pm UTC (link)
guardian_writerin a now-locked post, stated that even though she writes slash, she is against gay marriage and doesn't believe in homosexuality.

So it's good when it lets her get her jollies, but bad when two people want to spend the rest of their lives together? Kind of like when guys spend gobs of money to see two pairs of silicone breasts rub against each other, and then call my cousin and her partner of five years dykes?

How very lame.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rhi_silverflame, 2004-02-19 08:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-19 08:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:46 pm UTC
Buttsex - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-19 09:28 pm UTC
Re: Buttsex - pooka, 2004-02-19 09:31 pm UTC
... - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-20 02:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - redwarrior, 2004-02-19 11:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]necronomist, 2004-02-20 01:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]feenix, 2004-02-19 09:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 11:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-02-19 11:51 pm UTC
... - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 11:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mirabellawotr, 2004-02-19 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhi_silverflame, 2004-02-19 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rann, 2004-02-19 11:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]loki, 2004-02-19 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-19 08:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]calluna, 2004-02-19 08:59 pm UTC
... - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-19 09:01 pm UTC
... - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 09:03 pm UTC
... - [info]crickets, 2004-02-19 09:19 pm UTC
... - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-19 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]loki, 2004-02-19 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 06:14 am UTC
... - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-20 07:17 am UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-19 08:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-19 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]calluna, 2004-02-19 08:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 10:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-24 03:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]a_sockpuppet, 2004-02-19 09:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]crickets, 2004-02-19 09:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]a_sockpuppet, 2004-02-19 10:36 pm UTC
... - [info]crickets, 2004-02-20 07:51 am UTC
... - [info]a_sockpuppet, 2004-02-20 08:30 am UTC
... - [info]delfeus, 2004-02-20 10:56 pm UTC
... - [info]a_sockpuppet, 2004-02-21 09:24 am UTC
... - [info]delfeus, 2004-02-21 07:52 pm UTC
... - [info]a_sockpuppet, 2004-02-21 10:11 pm UTC
... - [info]delfeus, 2004-02-22 09:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadda, 2004-02-19 10:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2004-02-20 05:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yadda, 2004-02-20 07:34 pm UTC
... - [info]smo, 2004-02-20 07:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:15 pm UTC
Re: - pooka, 2004-02-19 09:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - redwarrior, 2004-02-19 11:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tempslut, 2004-02-21 02:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]starkeymonster, 2004-02-24 11:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tempslut, 2004-02-25 04:31 am UTC
... - [info]starkeymonster, 2004-02-25 05:28 pm UTC

[info]ingrid
2004-02-19 07:57 pm UTC (link)
I'm forever hopeful that someday people will realize that free speech doesn't mean freedom from response.

In fact, it means exactly the opposite.

You talk the talk, you takes your chances on the resulting commentary, no matter what your wittle feelings demand.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 08:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mirabellawotr, 2004-02-19 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-19 08:55 pm UTC
... - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-19 09:54 pm UTC
... - [info]apoplexia, 2004-02-19 10:25 pm UTC
... - [info]yadda, 2004-02-19 11:01 pm UTC
... - [info]apoplexia, 2004-02-20 12:22 am UTC
... - [info]telesilla, 2004-02-19 10:51 pm UTC
... - [info]rhi_silverflame, 2004-02-19 11:15 pm UTC
... - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-20 03:00 pm UTC
Psych - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-19 09:53 pm UTC
... - [info]mirabellawotr, 2004-02-19 11:24 pm UTC
... - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-20 03:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alastor, 2004-02-20 02:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aruru, 2004-02-20 08:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-19 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thebratqueen, 2004-02-19 09:23 pm UTC
Re: - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:31 pm UTC
... - ataniell93, 2004-02-19 10:47 pm UTC
... - [info]thebratqueen, 2004-02-19 10:52 pm UTC
... - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-19 11:54 pm UTC
... - [info]thebratqueen, 2004-02-20 12:07 am UTC
... - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-20 01:06 am UTC
... - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-20 11:16 am UTC
... - tocomfortyou, 2004-02-20 05:42 am UTC
... - tocomfortyou, 2004-02-20 06:00 am UTC
... - [info]tempslut, 2004-02-21 02:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 10:05 pm UTC
... - [info]thebratqueen, 2004-02-19 11:06 pm UTC
... - [info]smo, 2004-02-20 04:59 pm UTC
Icon! - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-19 09:55 pm UTC
Re: Icon! - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 10:00 pm UTC
... - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 10:04 pm UTC
... - [info]alastor, 2004-02-20 02:22 am UTC
... - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-20 02:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 10:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ingrid, 2004-02-20 12:20 am UTC

ataniell93
2004-02-19 08:02 pm UTC (link)
When will people learn that we are obliged to respect their humanity, but not their opinions? An opinion is only as worthy of respect as it is informed, as it is consistent, as it is realistic.

I'm so tired of this "respect all opinions" bullshit. I don't respect the opinions of people who believe that Christianity improved women's rights in the ancient world, because the changes in ancient law codes clearly show an erosion of freedoms. I don't respect the opinions of people who believe that the Japanese didn't enslave women as military prostitutes during WWII, or that the Holocaust didn't happen. I don't respect the opinions of people who believe that some people are inferior to others due to their skin color. And I don't respect the opinions of people who wish their religious prejudices made into secular law.

Now, I write chan, so I can understand how you can write about something without thinking that it is a good idea. Murder mystery writers presumably don't believe that killing people is a good idea.

On the other hand, I'm thinking, if you write primarily slash, or only slash, and you write loving relationships between men as a consistent thing, instead of fucked-up love/hate slash with questionable consent--if, for whatever reason, your writing shows that you view gay relationships as truly loving and positive--and you still oppose gay marriage, you are probably fucked in the head.

[I've written one or two "good" chan relationships, between teenagers, but not child/adult as a grand good thing (and before someone gives me teh guff about Tom/Lucius in LW, there is only four years' age difference there; it's not my fault you're picturing Christian Coulson at 24 doing 12-year-old Lucius, it's Chris Columbus'.) Mikaija/Tarakhevan in Seafoam Diaries is not a good and lovely relationship. Mikaija just thinks it is.]

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-19 08:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-02-19 11:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]princessdot, 2004-02-20 02:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shoiryu, 2004-02-20 03:58 am UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-02-20 07:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-20 11:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-02-22 02:14 am UTC

[info]shoiryu
2004-02-19 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Oh wow, Aja. I KNEW there was a reason I like you.

Now, in what universe, exactly, is writing slash like pedophilia? Are they trying to use the arguement that fans of shotacon use? "I like to read/write it, but I'd NEVER do it/support it in real life?" It doesn't work that way. There's not a comparison. Homosexuality is not pedophilia. Pedophilia, real, live, pedophilia, /hurts/ someone. It creates a victim. Gay marriage and homosexuality in general is about being attracted to the same sex. It's no more likely to create a victim than a heterosexual relationship or marriage is.

Why does the issue always have to be how many penises or vaginas are involved in the relationship? It's just people. People will love who they love, whether they love men or women or both or neither or something else entirely. Why does who someone else loves frighten these people so much? Why does love create so much fear?

guardian_writer must love the nice, safe homosexuals on paper. They don't march in parades unless she writes them doing so. They don't want to get married unless she decides to allow them to want that. They don't get AIDS or beaten to death by homophobes or dismissed from a job or rejected socially unless it's for added angst or plot point, and I'm sure then their one twu wuuuv gives them healing buttsex afterwards. How nice it must be, to have safe happy homosexuals to play with, without having to worry or feel for or care about /real people./

How fuckin' nice.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 08:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]potter_wank, 2004-02-19 08:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 08:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 09:02 pm UTC
... - [info]yadda, 2004-02-19 11:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shoiryu, 2004-02-19 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 02:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]deoridhe, 2004-02-19 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]feenix, 2004-02-19 10:00 pm UTC
ph33r my L337 DnD sk1LLz! - [info]darkrose, 2004-02-19 10:36 pm UTC
Re: ph33r my L337 DnD sk1LLz! - [info]rhi_silverflame, 2004-02-19 11:12 pm UTC
... - [info]darkrose, 2004-02-20 07:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dawnswalker, 2004-02-19 10:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - redwarrior, 2004-02-19 11:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ishtar79, 2004-02-20 12:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 12:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shoiryu, 2004-02-20 03:55 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 06:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2004-02-20 04:19 am UTC

[info]eljuno
2004-02-19 08:09 pm UTC (link)
doesn't believe in homosexuality.

I have NEVER understood this turn of phrase.

I mean, what, people think it's an urban legend? That people makin' it with people of the same gender is on the same level as gators in the New York sewer system, or stolen kidneys? Or is it just PURE homosexuality that's a vanishing hitchhiker? That all those gay boys would go straight for the hoochie, if they wanted, and lesbians want guys?

I am confused...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shoiryu, 2004-02-19 08:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shoiryu, 2004-02-19 08:17 pm UTC
... - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:20 pm UTC
... - [info]sporked, 2004-02-19 08:20 pm UTC
... - [info]mael, 2004-02-19 08:54 pm UTC
... - [info]sporked, 2004-02-19 08:57 pm UTC
... - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 09:01 pm UTC
... - [info]mael, 2004-02-19 09:03 pm UTC
... - [info]lemone, 2004-02-19 09:42 pm UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-21 07:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-02-20 01:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 08:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sporked, 2004-02-19 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sporked, 2004-02-19 08:18 pm UTC
... - allen, 2004-02-19 09:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-02-19 08:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-19 08:56 pm UTC
... - [info]sporked, 2004-02-19 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mael, 2004-02-19 08:59 pm UTC
... - [info]aruru, 2004-02-20 08:30 am UTC
... - [info]mael, 2004-02-20 02:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 07:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2004-02-19 08:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2004-02-19 08:39 pm UTC
... - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 10:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]crickets, 2004-02-19 08:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhi_silverflame, 2004-02-19 08:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - redwarrior, 2004-02-20 12:20 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-22 04:47 am UTC

croupier
2004-02-19 08:13 pm UTC (link)
I think guardian_writer announcing that she's heading south until this whole thing cools off is my favorite part of the entire thing. (Until people stop calling you out for saying stupid shit?) I loooove it when they declare hiatus. Hoight!

Okay, back to pretty pretty lurkdom now.

(Reply to this)


[info]jezrana
2004-02-19 08:18 pm UTC (link)
*applauds Aja's whole rant*

Comments disallowed on the "OMG I've been wanked!" entry. Why am I not surprised?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sporked, 2004-02-19 08:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sporkify, 2004-02-19 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 03:12 am UTC
... - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-20 03:16 am UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 03:52 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-19 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 08:43 pm UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-19 08:46 pm UTC

[info]kijikun
2004-02-19 08:33 pm UTC (link)
*sits back and watches* Popcorn anyone?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-02-19 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 08:37 pm UTC
... - [info]kijikun, 2004-02-19 08:44 pm UTC
... - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:25 pm UTC
... - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-19 09:46 pm UTC
... - [info]belafarinrod, 2004-02-20 12:37 am UTC
... - [info]alastor, 2004-02-20 02:30 am UTC
... - [info]alastor, 2004-02-20 02:43 am UTC
... - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-20 05:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2004-02-19 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:39 pm UTC
... - [info]kijikun, 2004-02-19 08:40 pm UTC
... - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:40 pm UTC
... - [info]kijikun, 2004-02-19 08:43 pm UTC
... - [info]apoplexia, 2004-02-19 10:20 pm UTC
... - [info]kijikun, 2004-02-19 10:45 pm UTC
... - [info]apoplexia, 2004-02-20 12:29 am UTC
... - [info]yadda, 2004-02-20 06:04 am UTC

[info]xturtle
2004-02-19 08:34 pm UTC (link)
Oh, so this is what everyone was obliquely referring to.

My utterly worthless reactions, in sequential order:
1) Whether or not someone should post an opinion is a really pointless debate when the people in question are posting to journals with their names on them. Blah blah blah rights, blah blah blah free speech. And, more practically, your flist mates have just self-identified a huge value difference for you. Usually to get to something like this you have to have an actual conversation, but in this case you can decide if the conversation is worth the effort, or if the value difference is just too huge for you to deal with.

2) I want a banner that says "come for the sex, stay for the human rights." Cause, d00d, this business of liking slash but being against gay marriage? Tacky is the best I can come up with. Go walk on the wild side with a predilection you can fully support, asshats.

3) 50% divorce rate, 24 hour marriages, marital rape is one of the most common and least reported forms of sexual violence, domestic abuse is one of the few crimes that sees few differences across various indices of stratification, and they're STILL plugging the "sacred institution" line? Someone wake me when it's all over, cause I'm tired of this whole debate.

Exhaustedly yours,
CJ

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-19 08:43 pm UTC
Re: - [info]xturtle, 2004-02-19 09:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaos_rose, 2004-02-22 09:30 am UTC
Re: - [info]xturtle, 2004-02-22 09:34 am UTC

[info]phosfate
2004-02-19 08:35 pm UTC (link)
I still respect your opinions even though it feels like you do not respect mine.

Come back when you can restate that idea properly, and actually understand what it means.

(Reply to this)


[info]crickets
2004-02-19 08:35 pm UTC (link)
Props to you, Aja. Brilliant.

(Reply to this)


[info]rhi_silverflame
2004-02-19 08:40 pm UTC (link)
Aja, I fucking love you.

(Reply to this)


[info]theamazingrando
2004-02-19 08:43 pm UTC (link)
I see the hypocrisy fairy has paid guardian_writer a visit.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 09:28 pm UTC
... - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:32 pm UTC
... - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 11:29 pm UTC
... - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-20 05:15 am UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-19 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]belafarinrod, 2004-02-20 12:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]a_sockpuppet, 2004-02-19 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-19 09:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]a_sockpuppet, 2004-02-19 09:04 pm UTC
... - [info]eljuno, 2004-02-19 09:08 pm UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-19 09:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-19 09:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]a_sockpuppet, 2004-02-19 09:06 pm UTC
... - pooka, 2004-02-19 09:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]deeablo, 2004-02-19 09:41 pm UTC

[info]sanguinary
2004-02-19 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Okay I (might) be able to understand that you would be against gay marriage, even though you write slash. (personally, I'm against gay marriage in fanfics because it's just so badly done. Keep marriage in RL where it's not overwrought, and provides teh funnah when things go wrong at least).

But to be against homosexuality, yet you write slash? So, you think two men or women being together in real life is bad, yet you go out and write it anyway? At least admit that you're shallow as a wading pool for only thinking of teh hawt, and then shut up before you make yourself appear even stupider.

(Reply to this)


[info]photosinensis
2004-02-19 08:54 pm UTC (link)
I have a tendency to step in these, don't I?

But for the record, I don't believe that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing (though pedophilia can be homosexual). I was just making an attempt to point out that some people do view the portrayal of both homosexuality and pedophilia to be either intellectually or erotically stimulating without condoning either.

As for the free speech comment, that was ill-thought. Perhaps I shouldn't have said that. Oops. However, I stand behind my jab at Aja's characterizations. Her H/D reads like two women with penises.

But the true wank here is the trolling of Guardian's lj, not her opinion itself. At least she admitted to having a hypocritical viewpoint. That's usually a step in the right direction.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sorchar, 2004-02-19 09:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bonibaru, 2004-02-19 09:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thebratqueen, 2004-02-19 11:14 pm UTC
Re: - [info]bonibaru, 2004-02-19 11:44 pm UTC
... - [info]cesare, 2004-02-20 12:14 am UTC
... - [info]bonibaru, 2004-02-20 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snacky, 2004-02-19 09:53 pm UTC
Re: - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-19 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-19 10:09 pm UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 12:00 am UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 01:18 am UTC
... - pooka, 2004-02-20 01:19 am UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 01:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 12:37 am UTC
... - [info]bonibaru, 2004-02-20 01:11 am UTC
... - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 01:36 am UTC
... - [info]bonibaru, 2004-02-20 02:22 am UTC
... - [info]elfy, 2004-02-20 11:14 am UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 01:24 am UTC
... - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 01:38 am UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 03:03 am UTC
... - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 01:41 am UTC
... - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 02:17 am UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 03:07 am UTC
... - [info]elfy, 2004-02-20 11:18 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 06:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-19 11:57 pm UTC
Form vs. content - [info]cesare, 2004-02-20 12:18 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 12:42 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:07 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 01:09 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:18 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 01:20 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:26 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 01:29 am UTC
... - [info]panthea, 2004-02-20 02:04 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 02:23 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 02:34 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 05:53 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 05:54 am UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 01:15 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 01:17 am UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 01:38 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 01:39 am UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 02:07 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 02:34 am UTC
... - [info]crickets, 2004-02-20 07:01 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:05 am UTC
... - [info]cesare, 2004-02-20 01:32 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 02:23 am UTC
... - [info]liarliar, 2004-02-20 07:16 am UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-20 12:37 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:08 am UTC
... - pooka, 2004-02-20 01:13 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:20 am UTC
... - pooka, 2004-02-20 01:26 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 02:54 am UTC
... - [info]darkrose, 2004-02-20 07:27 am UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 01:32 am UTC
... - pooka, 2004-02-20 02:08 am UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 02:30 am UTC
... - pooka, 2004-02-20 02:34 am UTC
... - [info]sistermagpie, 2004-02-20 01:17 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:22 am UTC
... - [info]sistermagpie, 2004-02-20 01:30 am UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 02:12 am UTC
... - [info]roz_mcclure, 2004-02-20 07:32 am UTC
... - pooka, 2004-02-20 02:47 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-03-30 08:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 12:47 am UTC
... - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:09 am UTC
... - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 01:42 am UTC
... - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 01:53 am UTC
... - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 02:15 am UTC
... - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 02:21 am UTC
... - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cesare, 2004-02-19 09:58 pm UTC
Re: - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-19 10:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-19 10:08 pm UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 01:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 11:09 pm UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 01:20 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:14 am UTC
actually, you can. - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 01:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mirabellawotr, 2004-02-20 12:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 12:50 am UTC
Re: - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 01:26 am UTC
Re: - [info]mirabellawotr, 2004-02-20 01:39 am UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 03:05 am UTC
... - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-20 03:13 am UTC
... - [info]mirabellawotr, 2004-02-20 03:28 am UTC
... - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 03:53 am UTC
... - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 04:06 am UTC
... - [info]darkrose, 2004-02-20 07:35 am UTC
... - [info]pyratejenni, 2004-02-21 03:07 am UTC
... - [info]telesilla, 2004-02-20 07:41 am UTC
... - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-20 12:57 pm UTC

[info]cesare
2004-02-19 09:12 pm UTC (link)
I adore Aja's screed, I really do.

But I do think that even on the side of the angels, there's some conflation going on.

It's entirely possible to write about something, and believe that what you're writing about is not morally right, without being a hypocrite. An author who writes about Robin Hood does not have to believe in stealing. An author who writes about serial killers does not have to believe in murder.

I think the confusion here may be that we're discussing someone who writes about gay relationships and gay sex in the context of a community that's formed around writing on those topics. And most people in this community proceed from the assumption that one of the shared tenets of the community is that gay sex and gay relationships are good things both in fiction and in reality.

(And yes, by virtue of the friends lists, Livejournal is a community site; the friends page is a self-selected community. While Guardian has every right to state her opinions on her own journal, if she is part of the slash community by virtue of the fic she's written and feedbacked, the lists she's a part of, the slashers she has friended and who have friended her, then her opinions are also being stated in the context of the slash community.)

This situation is sort of like meeting a white racist at a hip-hop concert. Everything about the cultural context at a hip-hop concert is tacitly opposed to everything the racist believes in and represents, to such a degree that it's hard to understand why they'd even show up there. But it's possible for that racist person to simultaneously believe that white people are superior and still like hip-hop. That doesn't necessarily make that person hypocritical, even though it's very dissonant and confusing.

Of course, if a white racist shows up at a hip-hop concert and starts talking about how white people are superior to black people, they'd be foolish not to expect a strong negative reaction.

And if a person who disapproves of gay relationships states that disapproval in a community devoted to writing about gay relationships, they'd be foolish not to expect a strong negative reaction.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-19 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]embitca, 2004-02-20 08:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ecchaniz0r, 2004-02-21 01:00 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-19 10:10 pm UTC
Aha!
[info]sagralisse
2004-02-19 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Another piece falls into place:

- fictional men written by women != actual gay man
- hoyayphobia != homophobia
- slash writer != gay activist

Are we seeing a trend here?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Aha! - [info]darkrose, 2004-02-20 07:43 am UTC
Re: Aha! - [info]kannaophelia, 2004-02-21 03:15 am UTC
Re: Aha! - [info]cmikhailovic, 2004-02-21 09:22 am UTC
... - [info]kannaophelia, 2004-02-22 02:48 am UTC
Re: Aha! - [info]telesilla, 2004-02-20 08:11 am UTC
Re: Aha! - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 03:29 pm UTC
Re: Aha! - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 03:48 pm UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 05:11 pm UTC
... - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 05:20 pm UTC
... - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-20 09:34 pm UTC

[info]toxictattoo
2004-02-19 09:35 pm UTC (link)
[laughs]

I saw this entry, 26 comments.

I go to read.

I come back, 117 comments.

Man....I miss all the good shit.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]smo, 2004-02-19 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhi_silverflame, 2004-02-19 10:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phosfate, 2004-02-19 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]esorlehcar, 2004-02-19 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 06:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]telesilla, 2004-02-20 08:15 am UTC
... - [info]snacky, 2004-02-20 04:09 pm UTC

[info]bookshop
2004-02-19 11:34 pm UTC (link)
For my own part, apart from [info]lightnote_blend's comment, I don't really see anything too wanky about the rest of the comments in my entry. Ceresi's opinion was stated more as a precautionary note, I think, out of a wish to keep a well-intentioned entry from being susceptible to the wank factor given the, er, wank factor. :)) Granted, the whole thing is wanky, but it's worth pointing out that the more heated discussions are taking place with perfect civility.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]photosinensis, 2004-02-20 07:06 pm UTC

[info]ishtar79
2004-02-20 12:28 am UTC (link)
I think Aja's post was on the money, but even if I didn't...I don't see how someone responding to an opinion, be it on their own lj or someone else's, has anything to do with infriging freedom of speech.

It's the very definition of freedom of speech. She saw something that bothered her, wrote a long response with her opinion, the end. Beeing a BNF should not be a deterrant to her expressing her opinion-and on the other hand, the people making counter-arguments to Aja's are perfectly entitled to do so.

I'm normally the non-confrontational sort, but I think that once something is posted on a public lj, it's fair game for discussion/disagreement.

(Reply to this)


[info]sarajayechan
2004-02-20 12:30 am UTC (link)
...How can someone write slash and not be accepting of homosexuality? @_@ Or should I even be trying to figure that one out?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-20 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2004-02-20 07:23 am UTC

[info]abaddon
2004-02-20 12:39 am UTC (link)
Regarding the characterisation snipe, from what I remember of Aja's original post - which was edited at least once since it was posted, she claimed to be deeply upset that someone could read her fanfic (she specifically mentioned LUW that I remember) and take this stance, as in her opinion, her fanfic was involved in a pro-gay rights agenda.

So I think then analysis of her fic is fair, but pointless, seeing as how anyone can interpret any text into being pro-gay, anti-gay and bloody anti-giraffes if they want.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-20 12:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 12:48 am UTC
Re: - pooka, 2004-02-20 12:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 01:31 am UTC
Re: - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bookshop, 2004-02-20 02:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-02-20 02:24 am UTC
... - ataniell93, 2004-02-20 02:28 am UTC
... - [info]panthea, 2004-02-20 02:51 am UTC
... - [info]abaddon, 2004-02-20 02:37 am UTC
... - [info]shoiryu, 2004-02-20 03:56 am UTC
Um. Guys?
[info]dafnap
2004-02-20 12:44 am UTC (link)
Since the original post is locked an all, I can't really comment on the wankiness of the statement...but a lot of us write incest, rape and inherently pedophilic relationships as well, but I'd doubt anyone would support those in real life.

Let me make one thing clear, homosexuality does NOT equal pedophilia and rape and incest. Never, nuh uh, not true. It's not the same thing, and never will be, no matter how much the Christian Coalition and the far right will try and spew. But to this person, whose set of morals and laws comes from a religion, to her, it's at that same level. Personally, I think it's entirely possible to write, and get off of, on things you don't condone.

On another note...why do people keep mistaking "wanked" with "disagreeing"? Just because you're being an ass, doesn't mean we (Teh Hive Vagina) disagrees with you. We just think you're being stupid about it. Really stupid.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Um. Guys? - [info]belafarinrod, 2004-02-20 12:49 am UTC
Re: Um. Guys? - [info]dafnap, 2004-02-20 05:27 am UTC
Re: Um. Guys? - [info]belafarinrod, 2004-02-20 05:01 pm UTC
Re: Um. Guys? - pooka, 2004-02-20 01:07 am UTC
Footnote and everything - smirnoffmule, 2004-02-20 05:16 am UTC
Re: Footnote and everything - [info]dafnap, 2004-02-20 05:23 am UTC
Re: Footnote and everything - ataniell93, 2004-02-20 07:45 am UTC
Re: Um. Guys? - [info]iczer6, 2004-02-20 07:56 am UTC
Re: Um. Guys? - [info]dafnap, 2004-02-20 08:10 am UTC


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