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Dana ([info]danaoshee) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2004-02-26 14:22:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
This is more of a wank in progress, and I'm sure I'm only seeing bits of it - please add your own observed wank.

It started with Orson Scott Card not liking gay marriage and saying so.

People are surprised. People are sad. People are upset, and of course, people are upset that people are upset.

Highlights include someone who has met the man (and obviously knows that despite any inconvenient opinions, he is a GREAT MAN and if you haven't met him you just can't know that) and of course, comments like "I could be utterly wrong in what I have seen in some of his fiction, but if I am not, then he is a very screwed up individual who has to live with his own internal conflicts."

(sorry if this wasn't enough wank to post...I just saw it starting in my friends list and had to share.)

(Post a new comment)


(Anonymous)
2004-02-27 12:41 am UTC (link)
Umm, am I the only one who remembers Songmaster? Read it a while back, but I believe there was quite a bit of teh hot gay (and underage) sex. I think OSC falls into the category of homophobic slasher. Of course, that could mean that the horrible Book of Mormon rewrites and Mormon holocaust (which manages to be even worse than it sounds) are attempts at atonement.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]phosfate
2004-02-27 12:45 am UTC (link)
I read it years ago, and remember it as one of the gayest things that ever gayed. His attitude toward actual gay people came as something of a surprise.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 04:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shoiryu, 2004-02-27 05:44 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 06:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]psychofangirl, 2004-02-27 07:10 am UTC
bigoted - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 07:25 am UTC
Re: bigoted - [info]crickets, 2004-02-27 08:39 am UTC
Re: bigoted - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-27 09:51 am UTC
Re: bigoted - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 02:32 pm UTC
Re: bigoted - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 06:37 pm UTC
Re: bigoted - [info]psychofangirl, 2004-02-27 08:40 pm UTC
Re: bigoted - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 02:29 pm UTC
Re: bigoted - [info]phosfate, 2004-02-27 04:23 pm UTC
This is a different anonymous. - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 07:22 pm UTC
Re: bigoted - (Anonymous), 2004-02-28 02:51 am UTC

[info]resmiranda
2004-02-27 01:24 am UTC (link)
I was about fourteen when I read that book, and I think there is an exquisite irony to the fact that such a homophobic writer gave me my first taste of how terribly, deliciously hot gay (underage!) sex can be. Thanks, Orson Scott Card!

(I think my copy of that book falls open to one of those scenes...)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]amand_r, 2004-02-27 03:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]resmiranda, 2004-02-27 05:36 am UTC
Re: - [info]amand_r, 2004-02-27 06:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]resmiranda, 2004-02-27 05:30 pm UTC
"God, I love waffles" - [info]khym_chanur, 2004-02-27 03:33 am UTC
Re: "God, I love waffles" - [info]resmiranda, 2004-02-27 05:36 am UTC
Re: "God, I love waffles" - [info]khym_chanur, 2004-02-27 05:39 am UTC

[info]sagralisse
2004-02-27 01:54 am UTC (link)
Songmaster was written in 1978. He may have changed a lot since then.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]pyratejenni
2004-02-27 04:14 am UTC (link)
You know, though, Songmaster was written in the 80s. It's quite possible Card's gotten more conservative as he's gotten older.

I also seem to recall he caught a lot of flak from the Mormon community about the themes in his Alvin Maker series.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]backfromspace, 2004-02-27 08:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]coyotegirl, 2004-02-28 10:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyratejenni, 2004-02-28 04:25 pm UTC
Re: - [info]coyotegirl, 2004-02-29 12:48 am UTC
*headdesk!!!!11!1!*
[info]vasaris
2004-02-27 01:18 am UTC (link)
What floors me is the bit about how the courts can't do stuff to make sweeping changes socially.

Ummm... desegregation of schools and deciding that there's no such thing as separate but equal? Roe v. Wade? etc. etc. etc.

Courts make those kinds of decisions all of the time. We don't always hear about it, but it does happen.

*shakes head*

(Reply to this)


pooka
2004-02-27 01:30 am UTC (link)
Who the hell is this guy, anyway? I've never heard of him, or the mysterious "Politically Correct Elite" he keeps referring to. Are they a secret society, like the Masons?

They will make it harder for us to raise children with any confidence that they, in turn, will take their place in the reproductive cycle.

Did anyone else hear Mufasa from The Lion King say that? No? Just me? Okay then.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]smit
2004-02-27 01:37 am UTC (link)
Sci-fi Spectulative fiction writer. Mormon. He wrote the Ender series. Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, etc.

I love how reproduction always plays into it. Oh, won't somebody please think of the children's children's children!!!!

Uhm, hate to tell you this, but the planet's sort of hit max capacity. Try worrying about the oil shortage/global warming/Planet X/supervolcanoes/aliens destroying the world before THE GAY AGENDA.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-27 01:50 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]fishandbicycle
2004-02-27 01:41 am UTC (link)
Now I also hear Mufasa saying it.

You have ruined my childhood OMG!!!one!!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: - pooka, 2004-02-27 01:44 am UTC

[info]panthea
2004-02-27 02:28 am UTC (link)
Well, if you haven't noticed, anyone that socially conservative people don't like is always dubbed "the elite", a.k.a., "They're out of touch with Real Americans because they have much more money than we do and thus don't know what we poor folks want!"

Somehow the Bush clan somehow manages to avoid falling into this category. No, I don't understand it myself.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rann, 2004-02-27 03:32 am UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-27 03:38 am UTC
Re: - [info]rann, 2004-02-27 03:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-02-27 03:46 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 04:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-02-27 04:06 am UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-27 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dhaunea, 2004-02-27 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 02:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]psychofangirl, 2004-02-27 07:12 am UTC

[info]lots42
2004-02-27 03:42 am UTC (link)
Oh it's the 'Everyone Must SPAWN!!!!1`131421' excuse to hate gay marriages. Excuse me while I quitely go throw up

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]backfromspace, 2004-02-27 08:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 02:36 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-02-28 04:29 am UTC (link)
Image

That was just begging to be iconed.


~Anonon

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: - pooka, 2004-02-28 04:43 am UTC

[info]darkrose
2004-02-27 01:42 am UTC (link)
*shrug* OSC is a good writer. He's also a Mormon, and he's pretty serious about it, so this doesn't surprise me.

Personally, I lost most of my respect for him after Children of the Mind, because that book was so obviously "I need to put the kids through college."

Though I do think it's pretty damned funny to hear Mormons arguing that gay marriage is a threat to the institution of matrimony. "Well, what's next? Polygamy...oh, wait..."

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-27 01:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lots42, 2004-02-27 03:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-27 04:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]embitca, 2004-02-27 06:56 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 07:52 am UTC
Re: - [info]embitca, 2004-02-27 10:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]backfromspace, 2004-02-27 08:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 02:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]backfromspace, 2004-02-28 07:15 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-03-02 04:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]khym_chanur, 2004-02-27 04:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]purest_chaos, 2004-02-27 07:29 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 07:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]purest_chaos, 2004-02-27 09:35 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-28 01:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]purest_chaos, 2004-02-28 03:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]backfromspace, 2004-02-27 08:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]purest_chaos, 2004-02-27 09:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]backfromspace, 2004-02-28 07:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]delfeus, 2004-02-27 04:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 06:41 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-27 09:56 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-27 10:04 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]apoplexia, 2004-02-27 05:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-28 04:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]apoplexia, 2004-02-29 08:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-29 09:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]apoplexia, 2004-02-29 09:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-29 09:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eljuno, 2004-03-01 04:59 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 04:57 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 07:37 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-27 09:56 am UTC

[info]lurker32
2004-02-27 02:04 am UTC (link)
OSC appears to have gotten a bee in his bonnet awhile back about CONTINUING THE HUMAN RACE OMG, and now he cannot shut the fuck up about it. He's going to be one of those scary psycho SF geezers in another ten years, tops.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dawnswalker, 2004-02-27 07:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]erik, 2004-02-27 02:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lurker32, 2004-02-27 02:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-27 09:58 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 05:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lurker32, 2004-02-27 06:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-28 12:20 am UTC

ataniell93
2004-02-27 02:06 am UTC (link)
People are surprised that Orson Scott Card is against gay marriage? That he is a flaming homophobe?

Remember, none of the gay sex in Songmaster ever made anyone happy. The man is a hyper-conservative Mormon. I find his opinions annoying. But never surprising.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-27 02:20 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-02-27 02:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pipssister, 2004-02-27 03:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-02-27 03:28 am UTC
(no subject) - pooka, 2004-02-27 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-02-27 03:48 am UTC
Re: - pooka, 2004-02-27 03:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wakkymse, 2004-02-27 07:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-02-27 09:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skijg, 2004-02-27 05:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiasian, 2004-02-27 09:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]panthea, 2004-02-27 09:21 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 05:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lurker32, 2004-02-27 06:20 pm UTC

[info]iczer6
2004-02-27 03:48 am UTC (link)
I do wonder why so many people get freaked out over the idea that the term 'marriage' might have it's meaning changed.

Because I guess no word ever had a different meaning that the original associated with it.

*coughGAYcough*

And that if we dare to change or update the meanings the universe will collapse in on itself.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]resmiranda, 2004-02-27 04:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iczer6, 2004-02-27 05:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2004-02-27 07:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 02:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-02-27 05:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nights_mistress, 2004-02-27 05:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slashcat, 2004-02-27 05:53 am UTC
Re: - [info]nights_mistress, 2004-02-27 05:54 am UTC
Re: - [info]slashcat, 2004-02-27 05:55 am UTC
Re: - [info]nights_mistress, 2004-02-27 05:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackjackrocket, 2004-02-27 08:18 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 01:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-02-27 02:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 02:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hansbekhart, 2004-02-27 10:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-02-27 02:20 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]azarias, 2004-02-27 07:00 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]apoplexia, 2004-02-27 05:15 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]apoplexia, 2004-03-01 02:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dreamtoday, 2004-02-27 07:26 am UTC

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(no subject) - roxannelinton, 2004-02-27 12:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 02:45 pm UTC
Re: - roxannelinton, 2004-02-27 03:56 pm UTC
Re: - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-27 04:27 pm UTC
Re: - roxannelinton, 2004-02-27 05:08 pm UTC
Re: - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-28 01:43 pm UTC
Re: - roxannelinton, 2004-02-28 01:47 pm UTC
Re: - [info]big_bad_wolf, 2004-02-28 02:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]psychofangirl, 2004-02-27 08:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-28 01:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]psychofangirl, 2004-02-27 08:48 pm UTC
Re: - [info]dreamtoday, 2004-02-28 02:54 am UTC

[info]ivyincubus
2004-02-27 06:18 am UTC (link)
You know, I'm trying to actually read this, really I am, but then I see the word Mormon. And I just crack up. Hee! Mormon. Say it with me, feel the laughter.

Mormon...

Mormons are an endless source of amusment, and wank, to me. Where I was living last year, there was actually a colony of Mormons, and they had their own shops and movie theatres and everything. And a big stable. And only Mormons lived there. It was freaky. And endlessly amusing.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]ivyincubus, 2004-02-27 06:50 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 07:44 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 07:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ivyincubus, 2004-02-27 08:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-27 06:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ivyincubus, 2004-02-27 06:56 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-02-27 07:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ivyincubus, 2004-02-27 07:58 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-02-27 03:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wakkymse, 2004-02-27 07:29 am UTC

[info]garlicbug
2004-02-27 02:15 pm UTC (link)
It's always a bit of a shock to find out someone you admire has vastly different opinions to your own. I remember the irritation I felt when I found the weblog of one of my favourite artists and the very first post I read was him expressing puppy-esque adoration for Bush after the capture of Saddam. *sigh*

But that's the thing--they're all just opinions, and the artist I'm speaking of and Orson Scott Card both have as little power over my opinions as I do over their own. When people discover something about the creators of their favourite works that upsets them, nothing's stopping them from complaining, sure. In the end, however, they're just going to have to choose between ignoring the creator and enjoying the creation for what it is, or ignoring the creation in protest, because unless you corner the creator in a convention during a blue moon or whatever, there is very little chance you're going to change their mind.

That said, there's wanking a-plenty in this one. I stopped reading Orson's article after the part about constitutional change to reform society being undemocratic because there's something about that statement that's making my head hurt.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]garlicbug, 2004-02-27 02:21 pm UTC

[info]delfeus
2004-02-27 04:39 pm UTC (link)
It was so long that I didn't bother to read all of it, especially since it seemed so pointless - to me marriage != breeding. I consider marriage to be a pact between two people who love each other. There may be kids later on, or there may already be at the time of the marriage, but they're no requirement for marriage - just like marriage is no requirement for having children. My sister has two kids, the older of them turns 17 tomorrow, and sis has never gotten married to their father, although they've been living together for 20 years. I have Christian cousins who get married when they're about 18 and breed like rabbits [aunt has 14 children]. I personally will probably never get married, to a man or a woman, but I feel that everyone deserves the right to choose whether or not they want to get married to the person they love. Who does it hurt if two adults want to be happy together? I will never understand my religious cousins' will to get married young and make lots of children, but who am I to stop them? It's their right to choose. Just like it is the right of two gay adults to choose whether or not they want to register their relationship.

The deciding factor in me leaving the Christian church was the fact that when the gay marriage law was discussed here in Finland, most of the people opposing it were Christians. There were some priests and other Christians who supported the gays' right to register their relationship, but most were against it.

I was rather shocked the first time I heard that OSC is against homosexuality. Granted, I have read only two books other than the Ender saga by him, but I've always viewed "Speaker for the Dead" in positive light - I even quoted it in an essay I wrote for an Ethics course about gays and gay rights.

(Reply to this)


[info]lots42
2004-02-28 02:23 am UTC (link)
Oh, Orson. Only you could want equal rights for murderous aliens and artifical intelligences but not peaceful gay men.

P.S. Ender was -so- bi

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2004-02-29 07:14 am UTC (link)
Wow. that's just.. shocking.

But Bean so had a crush on Ender.

Only then he had to marry breed with Petra because the world needed smart babies and Mr. Card needed an excuse for 3 more books.

(Reply to this)


redwarrior
2004-02-29 07:02 pm UTC (link)
Well, if all human beings exist for is to pass along our DNA, that kind of negates the fact that we, and our civilization, exist. To be human, IMHO, is to somewhat liberate ourselves from the bonds of nature, to live on intellect insead of instinct.

If the world were just about reproduction, as soon as you'd give birth, you'd have to die because your purpose is done. They don't need you anymore.

(Hey...that sounds like a good SF fic to write...)

(Reply to this)


[info]ladyrogue
2004-03-02 02:42 am UTC (link)
I was wondering when this wank was going to pop up. It's not so much the fact that everyone is talking about it that annoys me, because God knows I don't agree with OSC's opinions at all. I think it's more because most everyone I've seen has posted something about it and then in a very whiny tone said something to the effect of "OMG I'LL NEVER BUY HIS BOOKS AGAIN EVEN THOUGH I LOVE HIS WORKS. TAKE THAT OSC." Because you know, that'll show him.
Yeah, it sucks that OSC is being an asshole about the gay marriage issue. But if you still can't help but think, "But I really love his writing..." then read them. It's simple. I care about art. And I review people on whether or not they have created 'art'. If I judged people on their affiliations or opinions of political issues, I'd be a politician. And truly, I could care less about politics.
But if you can't look at a book of his now without thinking about the article, then move on and look at someone else's books. But for the love of God, stop whining about it!

That is all. ^ ^

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-03-02 05:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyrogue, 2004-03-02 11:20 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-03-08 08:40 pm UTC (link)
http://www.journalfen.net

(Reply to this)

  
   
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