Asian-elitist wank that puts anime fen to shame...
So, I'm big on watching Japanese dramas and on a search for spoilers of the new TricK season I check the listings of a Southern California broadcast channel that caters to Asian dramas and programming. You'd think since it wasn't all important anime the fans would be a tad more mellow given it was a smaller fan base. And a little less elitist and pretentious since it's not being played on the EVOL Cartoon Network to all those plebes, right?

Not so with the tiny Korean drama "One Million Roses," which starts, as all Korean drama does, by someone calling someone else's mother (or fictional mother of a mother) a bad name. Enter the Asian values wank...


Inuwashi: I have noticed that many people here refer to the grandmother in One Million Roses as "mean grandmother." I'm wondering if anybody has a reason or explanation for why they think she is "mean." It bothers me because I fear that there is a big misunderstanding.

I am also puzzled by the (very sympathetic, or partial) attitude of many toward Min Jae. Where does that come from?

It seems to me that many people here don't have a very good understanding of the dynamics of Korean or Japanese (Asian?) family and interpersonal relations -- but base their reactions on an American way of thinking, on what would be the case in Amerca. But one of the things that makes these dramas so interesting is the very complicated web of such relations and the (Asian) social reality behind them. This is especially true of many Korean dramas, which deal with important social and cultural problems in daily life these days. Everything must be understood in that context.

For example, Yellow Handkerchief caused a lot of thinking and discussion because of the way it dramatized the problems in the family registry law, and as a result, it is going to be changed. One drama accomplished that! Japan also has a family registration law, and various problems in it have caused trouble too. It is difficult to explain such things because there is no law like that in Western countries. But you can't understand attitudes (and behavior) toward marriage, divorce, adoption, etc., if you don't know and understand the family registration law and family law in general. Also social customs are very important, and very different from Western countries. For this reason, it is not good to judge people in dramas too quickly and easily. They are not Americans speaking Korean or Japanese or Chinese.


Nsheldon: Many people who are part of the discussions on this (and other) boards are Korean. Many are not. We've ALL learned a lot regarding cultural differences & are still learning. We discuss it & sometimes 'take sides' on who we like or dislike. We enjoy differences of opinions & sometimes someone else's opinion can make us look at things in a different light. I am on the side of Hyun kye & Hye ran getting together. I personally think Min jae is somewhat uptight... However, I DO sympathize with him & can understand his pain & where it came from. It was from years & years of emotional abuse & rejection from Hyun kyu & mean grandma.

I refer to grandma in that way because she IS mean. I DO understand there are differences in families & classes. This grandma is mean and spiteful. She intentionally has done things to her daughter in law that were mean spirited & done to make her daughter in law look bad. There is NO excuse for treating someone ill when there have been years of that same person doing everything they can to please the mean person... Mean grandma is mean grandma... But, I can almost bet that she will change her attitude by the end of the drama because all these type of dramas have happy endings & all the mean people eventually come around to be more understanding & compassionate.

There are about 1/2 people on the boards I visit that cannot tolerate Hyun kyu & think he is spoiled, irresponsible and do not believe he should be with Hye ran. I have come to be more kind towards Min jae because of what Hyun kyu has put him thru over the years. I still like Hyun kyu & think he has a great personality (fun)... I am enjoying OMR very much. Most of us watched & loved Yellow Handkerchief. There were some wonderful exchanges of ideas on that show. There are wonderful exchanges now on OMR...


Now, despite the heavy-handed tactics Inuwashi has people generally respond with the "we agree to disagree" parts. Much fun is had by all and the spirit of poking "mean grandmother" continues. Kindle laid, here comes the spark:

mikey: Well, fair enough . . . but there are certainly universal standards for what might be considered appropriate human behavior. Just because a group of jungle cannibals might decide to consume their neighbors doesn’t mean us ignorant Americans can’t condemn them for their activities because we don’t understand their culture.

And some of these universal standards might include a grandmother treating her daughter-in-law and step-grandson with at least a reasonable degree of decency.

I (and many others, I assume) have come to use the “mean grandma” term primarily for simplicity: everybody immediately knows whom we’re talking about (and maybe we all chuckle about the “mean grandma” moniker we’ve laid on her) and then we move right on to the discussion.

Yes, we all know that she may have her own reasons for hating Sun-young and Min-jae, and we all know that elderly grandmothers hold a position of much greater respect and authority in Asia then they might in America – but her kind of meanness just isn’t appropriate in *any* culture – sorry.

Suggestions that those of us who sympathize with Min-jae are a bunch of ignorants who simply can’t comprehend Asian culture also seem to fall short given that step-father In-hwan and half-sister Eun-ji also seem to be pretty sympathetic towards Min-jae. Am I to assume that these two Korean characters just as ignorant about Asian culture as we dumb Americans are?

Sorry, but blowing off non-Asians with this haughty “you’re not Asian, so you’ll never understand” attitude just really irritates me.


Inuwashi:No. The problem is that you do not understand what is going on in that family because all you know is American ideas, concepts, values, etc. My point is that you can not understand or interpret a Korean or Japanese or Chinese drama on the basis of American ideas, concepts, values, etc. That is one reson why I suggested to HanadaTattsu that she advertise these boards at AsianAvenue.com, where there are many Korean, Japanese, and Chinese people who know both cultures and languages in each case. It would be helpful to many people here to have their input and reactions to things. They would be a source of knowledge and understanding that would help you to understand and interpret things better. But if you insist on seeing things through your American filter and insist on some fictitious set of "universal standards" that somehow override and neutralize Korean or Japanese or Chinese culture and society, then their help and contribution would be meaningless.

"blowing off non-Asians with this haughty "you’re not Asian, so you'll never understand" attitude"

That is not what I am doing. I am pointing out problems in the way that some people here see and judge things, from the standpoint of Asian society and culture. If that is "blowing off non-Asians" to you, then you will never learn and understand. We have our own culture and we do not need to apologize to Americans for it or change it because some Americans don't like it.

Translation: STFU bitch, my intepretation is the right one because I'm Japanese and you're not. Neener neener.

Trying to respond with canon, nsheldon: Well, in defense of Min jae I can say that he WAS mistreated growing up. MEAN grandma & Hyun kyu (at the MEAN grandma's urging) treated Min jae as an outcast. Believe me I know that it CAN affect you as an adult when you are mistreated constantly as a child. It has been definitely indicated that this was the case with Min jae. Min jae's mother did not want to cause problems & would urge Min jae to always 'give in'. So he didn't have the support even of his own mother. I really have nothing more to say about it and can only say that this board is only a place to share differences of opinions. I see no reason to be hateful and no reason to make accusations of ignorance by some of us on the asian customs/culture. I'm very sorry you are so offended and feel the need to lash out. I will not respond to anymore of your MEAN statements...

Inuwashi tells nsheldon off for interpreting things out of context in the canon. Then proceeds to postulate the future of the canon...

Inuwashi: In the future, there will certainly be a conflict about having both Min Jae and Hyun Gyu in the company (Joy Land), and one of them may have to quit. (This is almost like fate.) If Min Jae quits, he will not be very successful elsewhere, so it would be a disaster. But if Hyun Gyu quits, he will be successful in some other company, or even in a new company that he starts. Hae Ran can also see this. She is very perceptive about such things, as many women are when they pick a mate. Min Jae is a tragic person who is suffering because of his parents' mistake. It is wrong to blame that on the grandmother or Hyun Gyu.

mikey brings us the "Whaaaaaaa! I'm going home!!" and leaving the sandbox of fandom: I guess it’s fruitless to attempt to carry on a conversation with a condescending, all-knowing, all-seeing individual whose only response to the issues I raise seems to be (in essence) “you’re too ignorant to understand.”

Very well, then: I too shall therefore depart this board in search of greener pastures, a place where sincere people of diverse backgrounds can engage in lively discussions in an atmosphere of enthusiasm, respect, and good cheer.

Inuwashi kicks sand at the departure: To nsheldon and mikey:

I am sure that you can find some place where bigots hang out and reinforce each other's ignorance and arrogance.

It is typical of immature ignorant people that when challenged they run away like cowards, rather than stand and respond with intelligent ideas and argument, or perhaps even a question. Maybe you think you can insult Asian culture and every "docile" Asian will let you get away with it, but not this one. You can't stand and argue because you have no basis for doing so. But you can't get away with your attempt to force your American thinking and values on other societies and cultures. Whether they speak out or not, people value and are proud of their society and culture, and they will always resent any attempt to force American ideas and values on them, even in discussing a drama about their society and culture. It is just too bad that bigots like mikey and nsheldon refuse to recognize and understand that. That is why so many people around the world resent and even often hate America and so many Americans who are just like these two. But then they wonder why most of the rest of the world resents them and sometimes attacks them. They never try to find out why. They just make excuses and concoct crazy theories about it. It is sad that Americans have to suffer because of these ignorant, arrogant fools.

If this place is for such people, then I will leave. But I don't think that mikey and nsheldon are typical of all people here. At least I don't see that yet.

Mikey returns from his leaving: Well, I’m okay now. I’m not boiling over any more. So it’s once again safe for me to communicate here worrying about losing my cool and dragging this board into flamethrowing battle that ultimately denigrates everybody involved. It would be an inexcusable disservice to all the fine people who frequent this board if I allowed myself to get all nasty.

Mr. Inuwashi, I believe now I understand why you are so vigorous in your defense of the fictional grandmother in “One Million Roses.” It is because your own personal behavior so closely mirrors hers, and you apparently interpret criticism of this fictional character as a personal attack upon yourself.

Sir, you seem incapable of comprehending the fact that sincere people can have differing opinions, and that this is normal and expected, and that lively discussions between such sincere people is one of life’s great delights. You appear to have only one version of the truth – yours – but, as you must have discovered by now, attempting to *dictate* your version of “truth” to others is very unlikely to persuade them of the correctness of your views!

Furthermore, sir, if I were to make a blanket statement about how “Asians all think alike,” I would be correctly chastised for my bigotry – and yet, this is how you come off sounding, as you were the spokesperson for each and every Asian worldwide. I flatly do not believe that every last person in Korea agrees with you on the issue of Min-jae’s step-grandmother’s “meanness” (yours *may* be the majority opinion in Korea – I do not know) but I am quite confident that Koreans, just like Americans, must also have a wide range of opinions about such things.

But more than this, sir, is your unfortunate lack of knowledge of (and even greater lack of respect for) American culture. Your characterization of America being a land of “child molestation” speaks volumes . . .

I do not know how an Asian person would have received the comments you’ve posted above – perhaps they would have responded with submission, apologizes, and promises to reform their way of thinking – but to Americans, your attitude is arrogant, bullying, and insulting. Whether or not this American mentality is a good thing is a separate issue – that’s just the way it is.

Perhaps you don’t believe that you’re being arrogant, but you are in America, and you are communicating with Americans, and you should realize that Americans *do* think your attitude is arrogant, and you should adjust your attitude accordingly if you wish to have any hope of persuading Americans of the validity of views. Coming across as arrogant and condescending does not convince Americans of anything, all it does is make them hurt, stubborn, and angry.

Consider nsheldon (herself a grandmother) pointing out her feelings about a fellow grandmother’s behavior in “One Million Roses.” And you respond by bullying her such that she decides to leave the board! And then you follow that up by branding fellow members of this board (such as myself) with the hateful term “bigot” for having the audacity to actually stand up to you and challenge your opinions! Shame on you!

Yes, I left, too – not because (as you suggest) I was a “coward,” but rather because I was getting really angry with your attitude, and I was edging close to losing my temper – something I am loathe to do. So, a “time out” was necessary for yours truly, and now once again I am confident that I can communicate here rationally. But now that you’ve crossed the line into making personal attacks, it’s a whole new ball game. And – rest assured – I can fight in the mud just as good as anybody, if that’s what you’re really looking for.

Yes, I may indeed need more cultural awareness. Most Americans do. The difference between you and me, sir, is that I can acknowledge this about myself – and you cannot. Until you open up your own horizons and try to understand and respect cultures other than *your* own, your opinions here will continue to be criticized, ignored, and ultimately disregarded.

Inuwashi: The discussion is about a Korean drama and about aspects of it. You can interpret it any way you want and form an opinion based on your interpretation, but if that interpretation is not based on valid facts and understanding (which are Korean in this case), then you are just imposing your American ideas and thinking on something that is not American at all. That is not merely having an opinion. It is bigotry in action. It is how prejudices and racism get started and keep on going.

Wrapping ignorance and bigotry in an "opinion" and then saying that it is okay and valid because it is an opinion (as if all opinions are automatically valid and worthy) is a dishonest way of insisting that any idea or thinking or viewpoint must be respected because it is just an opinion. There are valid opiniuons and invalid opinions. There are opinions based on being knowledgeable and informed about the matter, and those that are merely concocted in somebody's head on the basis of some foreign ideas and ways of thinking.


"this is how you come off sounding, as you were the spokesperson for each and every Asian worldwide"

This is your exaggeration. This says nothing about me or about other Asians. It merely says something about your dishonesty and arrogance. You can't make a legitimate argument, so you make such accusations instead. That seems to be all that you are capable of.


"But more than this, sir, is your unfortunate lack of knowledge of (and even greater lack of respect for) American culture. Your characterization of America being a land of "child molestation" speaks volumes . . ."

The content and context here is a Korean drama and the culture, society that it takes place in.

Are you going to make a fool of yourself by insisting that "child abuse" (my term) is not a huge problem in your society? (And that is to mention nothing about the rampany abuse of females, rape, etc., in your society -- and the fact that your jails are filled with people convicted of such things.) When your newspapers are full of it, when children are taken from their parents in thousands every year in every big city, and when the whole world knows that? Do you really think that we are ignorant fools who don't know what's going on? What arrogance!

Funniegirlie tries to mediate: ...as for the on-going fire in this forum (sorrie for bringing it up again but just gotta since i haven't yet)...mikey and nsheldon: just be ur normal selves and disregard rude comments/postings. though i haven't been in here for awhile but i've read all the postings and it's just ridiculous. this is a forum to discuss our likes and dislikes in a drama...it's not some place where we come together to "trash" the Asian culture or any other culture being portrayed in the drama(s). most of the time, things in the dramas are overly dramatized thus couldn't really be applicable to daily life. however, it does serve as a teaching tool for us to learn or how some culture view their family and friends and what-nots but that's just something additional for us to learn. each of us here have our own point of views and no one can tell us to change ourselves/view of life...so just let it be. this is suppose to be a fun place where we can discuss about our favorite couple or character(s). it's not a cultural forum where we have to learn and agree 100% with that culture, and in turn changing our understanding toward that culture. frankly, i don't see anyone in here commenting about OMR based on their raising backgrounds or whatever (at least i don't see it that way)...most postings in here are just presenting facts from the episode(s).

Inuwashi: Where does it say that? Where does it say that it can only be that? Where does it say that you cannot comment on incorrect or misleading ideas or interpretations that are posted? Where does it say that everything that is said by everybody is automatically correct or authentic?

"most of the time, things in the dramas are overly dramatized thus couldn't really be applicable to daily life."

How would you know that? Are you from Japan or Korea or China? What knowledge and experience do you have in those societies and cultures? Without that, you have no basis for saying that something is "overly dramatized" or "not really applicable to everyday life."

"it's not a cultural forum where we have to learn and agree 100% with that culture, and in turn changing our understanding toward that culture."

Maybe not, but when someone makes cultural comments or explanations, or complains about the way in which something is being interpreted, that is a valid, legitimate thing to do here. And when Americans who have zero experience of an Asian culture and society act like they know everything, then that needs to be pointed out and corrected. And when such Americans insist that they are right even after such a post by an Asian, their arrogance needs to be called in question. Nobody should be required to put up with such insults and arrogance. Nobody will. Whether you like it or not.

"frankly, i don't see anyone in here commenting about OMR based on their raising backgrounds or whatever (at least i don't see it that way)"

If you had read my posts and the post by iluvpucca on page 17, you would know that that is false. In any case, the facts of such things do not depend on how you happen to see things. My background and ethnicity is not a matter of your opinion. It has nothing to do with what you think or believe.

"most postings in here are just presenting facts from the episode(s)."

If you have no experience in Japanese, Korean, or Chinese society and culture, then how do you know what is a fact and what is not, what is a correct interpretation and what is not? Or do you think that somebody gave you the power of a god to know and understand everything in the world? There is a lot of interpretation and mere opinions in the posts here, and some of that is highly questionable, or even wrong.

But it seems that to point out such things is some kind of crime here. There seems to be a tyranny of opinion here, in which every opinion is right and valid and correct merely because it is somebody's opinion and it was posted here.

Asian society and the Asian family is very different from the society and family in America. If you have experience only in American society and families, then there is no way that you can understand most of what goes on in Asian societes and families. It is a completely different world. What is common sense in America is not necessarily common sense in Asia. It is very arrogant, and very incorrect, to think that the whole world is just like America, or that it should be. It is not, and it never will be.

Because, seriously, if you've never been in a divorced family running an amusement park and have two brothers going after the same girl you shouldn't talk because you have no experience!

Mikey:Dialog from Friday’s “One Million Roses,” episode #44. Hye-ran’s mother is speaking to Hyun-kyu’s stepmother about the behavior of our notorious “grandmother”:

“Forgive me for saying this, but I felt sorry for you living such a sorry life under your mother-in-law. The way she looked at you – Her words had thorns in them. There’s no guarantee she won’t do the same to Hye-ran.”

Wasn’t that just delicious? And such serendipitous timing, too . . .

Inuwashi: Thank you for proving my point. You take superficial things and with your American filter turn them into something that they are not -- and ignore all kinds of things in order to do that. For example, the fact that Hae Ran's mother can't tell the truth about why she is opposed, so she has to find something to use instead. So she becomes hypocritical abd dishonest and blames Hyun Gyu's grandmother for what she is actually doing to Hae Ran. (But she was not against working for the Oh family when it was convenient for her. She didn't feel mistreated there either.) The real person who has been living a sorry life is Hae Ran's mother, but she projects her circumstances on Hyun Gyu's stepmother and uses that as her reason for rejecting the marriage. She is the one being dishonest and miserable (out of desperation), not Hyun Gyu's grandmother. Hyun Gyu's grandmother is running her family as she is supposed to (as Korean society has expected for hundreds of years), but Hae Ran's mother is not doing that, and that is why her children have suffered so much. She can't be honest about the past, and her husband hasn't had the guts to do that either, so everybody suffers. That is not true of the Oh family. But then you don't know anything about Korean society, so you wouldn't know or understand that. Instead, you have to grasp at superficial straws and ignore everything else of importance in order to try to make another dishonest attack. I hope it makes you feel good.

One more thing. Apparently mikey is so infantile that he thinks that just because a character says something, it is true, regardless of all the other factors involved. Hae Ran's mother is not the only one who is desperate and dishonest. Not "delicious," just sad and unfortunate.

It's a think of wanky beauty on all sides. And the best part is Inuwashi and nsheldon are both in the sixty year mark. Elder statesman wank!! The thread starts here and proceeds to go through approximately six pages before normalcy returns.

However, as glorious as the wank is in the thread about "One Million Roses," the best part comes when the moderator steps in. Those who want the main splooge should just go here for instant payoff.


HanadaTattsu: Okay, I rarely visit the K-Drama board (I'm mostly at the C-Drama and the J-Drama boards) but it has been brought to my attention that there have been problems between Inuwashi and Mikey, Nsheldon, and norest.

I'm not gonna declare who is right and who called whom a bigot or arrogant, or whatever, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, and I'm likewise not going to say that so and so started it.

I'm just letting you guys know to please don't get insultive and insult each other over opposing views. You guys see a character different ways, and that is no reason to point fingers at each other. Again, I'm not saying that one was right, and one was wrong, I'm not gonna get involved in that. I'm just saying to please stop attacking each other there.

If you guys hate each other, just ignore each other, or just don't read the persons posts who you don't like. But please don't make this struggle public.

I have also noticed the racist term "Jap" being used. This was a stupid American racist term for the Japanese during World War II, and bad memories are being brought back from this. Please refrain from this.

Thanks.

Seems everything is well and good right? Nsheldon, Mikey and No Rest apologize. However...

Inuwashi: "don't argue dramas, just discuss them."

Don't disagree. Let people say whatever they want to. Don't dare disagree. In Japan, this is called kirei-goto. It is juvenile thinking that is typical of kindergarten or the early grades of elementary school, where getting along is more important than facts, which can be discussed, disputed, argued about when you are older.

This is like saying that you do not tolerate difference of opinion and arguing or debating about it. (If you tolerate difference of opinion, you must also tolerate arguing or debate about it. Also, there is such a thing as objective reality, empirical facts, cultural and social reality, etc., that are not matter os opinion or belief.) It is saying that every opinion is equally right and valid. What mature adult believes that?

At the same time, what value is there if American ideas, values, thinking, etc., are imposed on foreign reality so that it is bastardized and distorted? If that is what you and to do, then you should be watching and discussing only American dramas. And if some Asian person comes and disagrees with any of you, and is outraged by what is said and assumed here, then what are they supposed to do when they express themselves and meet with the kind of arrogance and willful ignorance that I have? You are saying that they should just shut up and let people say anything they want? Why don't you ask people their ethnicity when they register here and exclude everybody who says it's Chinese or Korean or Japanese or Asian, everybody but Americans? If we are not allowed to speak out and defend our societies andc ultures, then what are we supposed to do? How will bigotry and ignorance and racism ever be reduced or eliminated in that case?

Maybe you should do that and say to all Asians who disagree with you to just get out and not come back. That is the attitude I see here. If you want to disagree, get out! Is that it? If you want to oppose bigotry and ignorance and arrogance and racism, just get out! Is that it? Don't argue about it, just shut up! Is that it?

Do you think that these dramas were made so that people can act in such a way? Is that how you think they want you to react to them and look at them? Do you think that they are broadcasting them so that ignorant, arrogant Americans can demonstrate their ignorance, arrogance, and bigotry? If not, then what and why? It is certainly not to create a tyranny of an ignorant, arrogant mob (of three people so far) that is too immature and intelligent to deal with criticism or explanations of why things are not as they are being thought to be by some people.

What is the point or value of having a board like this if arguing and debating are not allowed? Or is this some kind of online kindergarten?


HanadaTattsu: Like I said, I'm not taking sides, but you seem to be hostile, the way you say "Americans" sounds remindful of "Japs". Please calm down, and let's just leave this, and discuss our views, okay?...The context you use it in is bad, such as "I'm not gonna let some American" is like that. You live in America, so you're an American.

To which Inuwashi throws a glorious shit-fit:
Nonsense. Why do you think that Asians (and also other peoples) live in their own communities where there are a lot of them? In Southern California alone, there are distinct Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Filipino, Thai, etc., etc., communities where the culture and language is their own, not American. One is American by ethnicity, not by address. One is Japanese or some other ethnicity by ethnic identity, not by where they live. America is no longer a so-called "melting pot" because there are too many people who reject American cultural values and attitudes, so they keep their own and stay separate. That's one reason why there is an online community like Asian Avenue, for example. We are Asians and do not want to be eaten up by some "melting pot" that turns everyone into American clones whether they like it or not. We have the right to live as we want to, and to define ourselves as we wqant to, rather than letting Americans do that for us, expecially against our will.

I have been talking about ethnic, cultural, social things, not residence. Don't confuse the two or wrap them up together as the same thing. They aren't.

Finally, living in America doesn't make me American any more than living in Japan would make you Japanese. The whole idea of that is ridiculous, silly, absurd. You don't change ethnicities by just changing your address. Nobody can do that. And it's wrong to demand that people do that.

To which, the mod replies with "...I merely was implying that you are an American of Japanese descent, but you are an American citizen, rite?"