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Dan Fogelberg's ([info]llama_treats) wrote in [info]fandom_wank,
@ 2004-05-15 23:58:00


Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:Presumptious

Can you turn it down? We're getting too much/not enough feedback!
The HP fandom has been rife with posts about giving/receiving feedback lately.

On the wanky side, we have fabularasa, who seems to think that no one should provide their opinion of her work, even though she posts it on the internet for the world to see:

It does seem to me that offering unsolicited con-crit is the rankest arrogance, since it assumes that you (oh writer) naturally value the opinion of me (the wise reader.) Just because I want you as my reader doesn't mean I actually value your opinion about writing; heck, nine times out of ten I don't even know you, so why should I? And I can't imagine posting a "read and review" at the top of any story. Drop a card if you liked it; hit "next" and move on if you didn't.

And in fact, no, I don't care to receive unsolicited con-crit myself, so I am simply extending the same courtesy to others. I am not going to go back and make editorial changes to a story I've already written; we're talking fanfic here, and it's purely for the passing enjoyment of myself and others, and in general I can't be arsed to undertake editing of something I've written and moved on from.

[Personally, if I didn't want comments on a story I wrote and/or didn't care what people think about my work, I wouldn't post it on the fucking internet; but I guess that's just me.]

Then again, I think idlerat may need to find herself a hobby:

And then of course there's you [fabularasa], where I've read hundreds of pages of your fic, made copious marginal notes, and never sent more than a generalized expression of fannishness in a comment to a random LJ post.

Continuing the discussion on idlerat's LJ, we get some additional opinions:

from lasultrix: My view on Fabula Rasa's view - dude, if 'read and review' excludes criticism, how on earth do you define 'review'?

[Ed: It's the opposite of "cue", silly!]

from cathexys: Also, considering what you and I do for a living, I seriously wonder about how arrogant we really are. Heck, if our analytic skills are good enough for Shakespeare and Woolf, they might be good enough for fanwriter x and y

Oy.

It's official. I need to stop searching for HP pr0n on LJ.




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(Post a new comment)


[info]marginalsanity
2004-05-16 08:00 am UTC (link)
just because I want you as my reader doesn't mean I actually value your opinion

Yeah, that's winning you a lot of readers right there kiddo.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - chief, 2004-05-16 03:09 pm UTC

ataniell93
2004-05-16 08:31 am UTC (link)
http://www.livejournal.com/~ataniell93/203931.html

I proffer my own contribution. And switchknife, I believe, wanked poetic as well.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Mmmmm! Tasty link! - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 08:40 am UTC
Re: Mmmmm! Tasty link! - ataniell93, 2004-05-16 08:45 am UTC
Re: Mmmmm! Tasty link! - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-05-16 07:40 pm UTC
Re: Mmmmm! Tasty link! - [info]singe, 2004-05-16 10:38 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-05-16 08:33 am UTC (link)
*runs away from HP fandom screaming* *does a movie!Denethor*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]zozma, 2004-05-16 07:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]frodaish, 2004-05-16 08:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]plazmah, 2004-05-16 10:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-05-17 12:54 pm UTC
Urgh, this person just makes me wanna...
[info]dotakapip
2004-05-16 08:35 am UTC (link)
I hope I'm not the only one who gets annoyed at fanfics with so many errors and things that need to be fixed. It almost makes them unreadable. In fact, I've literally stopped reading and left a fic with my favorite fandom, favorite style, favorite pairing/genre/whatever simply because it needed a lot of work in one category or another. Just because it's only a fanfic doesn't mean that the readers wouldn't appreciate some editing being done. In fact, it may just attract more readers. Constructive criticism is supposed to point out the faults that make a piece of work unenjoyable. I mean, if you want your fic to be crap, by all means, ignore the well-intentioned responses of concerned readers.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Urgh, this person just makes me wanna... - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 08:42 am UTC
Re: Urgh, this person just makes me wanna... - ataniell93, 2004-05-16 08:48 am UTC
Re: Urgh, this person just makes me wanna... - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-16 09:17 am UTC
Re: Urgh, this person just makes me wanna... - ataniell93, 2004-05-16 09:53 am UTC
Re: Urgh, this person just makes me wanna... - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-16 10:02 am UTC
Re: Urgh, this person just makes me wanna... - ataniell93, 2004-05-16 10:25 am UTC
Re: Urgh, this person just makes me wanna... - [info]elkins, 2004-05-16 11:19 am UTC

[info]misswindy
2004-05-16 08:50 am UTC (link)
Wowzer, did she ever go about it the wrong way.

She's got a point. Before I send someone more detailed feedback than "Wow! Hot! Good characterization!" I usually *ask* the person if they're looking for detailed feedback and/or constructive criticism, or if they prefer to just have their story out there. Because people write for different reasons. Some people write to Share Their Literarily Artistic Soul With The World, and some people (most, I'd wager) write primarily - though not exclusively - as a form of fannish currency. As a way to make a place for themselves in fannish culture. It's almost a social act at that point, and sending them vitriol about why Spike/Ephram/Clark/Methos/Neelix would have NEVER said/done/screwed/believed that in a million years is kind of a social rejection. This is why I personally don't care for public communities about badfic. Most of the people who write badfic aren't doing it to be the next Shakespeare, but to fit in and be part of the party. They don't usually write badfic to piss the rest of us off. So, whatev, I think she has a point, and the people that were all "But I must personally rescue literature from all bad Krycek/ Spock/ Xander/ Sydney characterizations!" made my eyes roll right out of my head with the splooge.

That said...... good LORD, she expressed it in the most confrontational, provocative, vitriolic, WANKY way imaginable! I can't get over it! I *agree* with her and I feel like yelling at her! Impressive, really. Also ironic, in that she doesn't like critical feedback, and heh, here we all are.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kijikun, 2004-05-16 09:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-05-16 07:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jwaneeta, 2004-05-16 08:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagralisse, 2004-05-16 09:22 pm UTC

[info]janegraddell
2004-05-16 08:52 am UTC (link)
I'm just going to say this: I'm so incredibly fucking tired of the (far too many) Harry Potter writers who treat readers like something they stepped in and tracked on the carpet. Arrogant? Bitch, please.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dotakapip, 2004-05-16 08:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dotakapip, 2004-05-16 09:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dotakapip, 2004-05-16 09:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegraddell, 2004-05-16 09:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegraddell, 2004-05-16 06:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]liarliar, 2004-05-16 09:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:34 pm UTC
Re: - [info]liarliar, 2004-05-16 09:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amandatwop, 2004-05-16 09:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubosquared, 2004-05-17 02:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]isiscolo, 2004-05-16 07:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegraddell, 2004-05-16 08:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]isiscolo, 2004-05-16 09:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegraddell, 2004-05-16 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]idlerat, 2004-05-17 07:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-17 07:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegraddell, 2004-05-17 07:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-05-18 06:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eiviiaru, 2004-05-16 09:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eiviiaru, 2004-05-16 10:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 10:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eiviiaru, 2004-05-16 10:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 10:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]embitca, 2004-05-16 11:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kannaophelia, 2004-05-16 05:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 07:34 pm UTC
... - [info]darkrose, 2004-05-16 07:56 pm UTC
... - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 08:05 pm UTC
... - [info]visp, 2004-05-17 05:09 am UTC
... - [info]kannaophelia, 2004-05-16 08:30 pm UTC
... - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 08:45 pm UTC
... - [info]kannaophelia, 2004-05-16 09:15 pm UTC
... - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:30 pm UTC
... - [info]liarliar, 2004-05-16 09:40 pm UTC
... - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 10:02 pm UTC
... - [info]liarliar, 2004-05-16 10:16 pm UTC
... - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]idlerat, 2004-05-16 07:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eiviiaru, 2004-05-16 08:26 pm UTC
... - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 08:53 pm UTC
... - [info]idlerat, 2004-05-17 03:27 am UTC
... - [info]singe, 2004-05-16 11:12 pm UTC
Re: - [info]embitca, 2004-05-16 09:01 pm UTC
... - [info]singe, 2004-05-16 11:14 pm UTC
... - [info]idlerat, 2004-05-17 03:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-17 07:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-16 10:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 10:28 am UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-05-16 10:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 10:52 am UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-05-16 11:24 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-05-17 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiasian, 2004-05-16 07:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiasian, 2004-05-16 07:45 pm UTC
Nope! - ataniell93, 2004-05-17 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-05-17 08:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-17 07:24 am UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-05-17 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2004-05-16 06:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-05-17 08:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elfy, 2004-05-16 11:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 11:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]elfy, 2004-05-16 11:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 08:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elfy, 2004-05-17 03:31 am UTC
... - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-17 04:29 am UTC
... - [info]elfy, 2004-05-17 04:42 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-05-16 09:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 03:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 03:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]singe, 2004-05-16 11:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]visp, 2004-05-17 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - ataniell93, 2004-05-16 09:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]madelfdisease, 2004-05-16 11:33 am UTC
(no subject) - chief, 2004-05-16 03:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hermiones_hymen, 2004-05-16 11:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]visp, 2004-05-17 05:19 am UTC
*clapclap* - (Anonymous), 2004-05-18 08:36 pm UTC

[info]criticalcricket
2004-05-16 08:56 am UTC (link)
Feedback is like thank you notes, but better; if you really didn't like the gift, you don't have to write one.

*stares*

So basically, she thinks she's gifting us with her brilliance and we're not qualified to do anything more than kiss her ass? Well damn, she'd hate to get a review from me. Frankly, I think her assumption that people can't point out errors because they're not important is the rankest piece of arrogance I've read in quite some time.

Personally, I am of the opinion that constructive criticism is the only way you can improve. If you put your hands over your eyes and scream "I can't hear you! You don't exist to me!" then all you're going to do is stay stuck in a rut and turn out the same junk you've always turned out. A lot of people do it these days, so I'm not surprised. I'm just terribly disappointed that the attitude is spreading. Even if you're writing for fun, you should still take pride in doing it well and if you have to take a few pieces of criticism in order to improve, so be it.

Honestly, I couldn't read through the whole thread simply because it makes me so angry that this attitude has become so engrained. "OMG! You can't say bad things about me because I'm a sensitive artist! I am already the Greatest!!!" I just want to take away their soapbox and beat them over the head with it really.

A lot of people won't comment on fics. Many are scared of attitudes like those expressed above. That's when I say screw it, slap that fic on the dissecting table and cut that sucker open. If you're going to inflict your work upon me. I'm going to inflict my opinions upon you in the form of a harsh dose of reality. People need to open their eyes. That sort of arrogance just isn’t going to cut it. More people need to speak out against it, stop the blatant ass-kissing or we’re all going to be sitting around up to our ears in bad crap. These people will move on thinking that they’re the greatest thing since Kraft singles and only continue to grow more mule-headed as they go along.

It’s definitely time to put some feet down, preferably ones that are swathed in steel toed combat boots as we deliver a nice swift kick in the pants. Feedback is like a thank you note, eh? Yeah well, thanks for killing some more of my faith in humanity. Let me pay you back with a nice big boot to the head!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dotakapip, 2004-05-16 09:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 09:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dotakapip, 2004-05-16 09:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 09:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dotakapip, 2004-05-16 06:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 10:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]embitca, 2004-05-16 11:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 11:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seventy_three, 2004-05-16 04:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-05-16 07:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 08:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-05-16 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 08:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]singe, 2004-05-16 11:50 pm UTC
... - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-17 10:27 am UTC
... - [info]singe, 2004-05-17 02:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thebratqueen, 2004-05-16 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 08:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thebratqueen, 2004-05-16 09:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-05-16 09:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 11:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]embitca, 2004-05-16 11:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 12:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toxictattoo, 2004-05-16 04:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seventy_three, 2004-05-16 06:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 07:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-05-16 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 08:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]plazmah, 2004-05-16 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bubosquared, 2004-05-17 02:46 pm UTC
Enlighten me, please?
[info]elkins
2004-05-16 09:08 am UTC (link)
OK, now I'm a little bit confused.

Does the OP -- the one who was complaining about getting feedback at all, I mean -- actually upload her fanfic onto some site that has no feedback form? Like onto a private webpage, with no "feedback button" option anywhere on the site? So that people really have to go out of their way to hunt down her email address in order to send her crit?

If so, then I can actually sort of understand her complaint. But if she's posting it on a fanfic forum, or publicizing and plugging it lots of places ("Read my fic! It's over here! Go! Read! Now!"), then it looks like serious mixed messages to me.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Enlighten me, please? - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 03:28 pm UTC
Re: Enlighten me, please? - [info]zing_och, 2004-05-16 03:50 pm UTC
Re: Enlighten me, please? - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 03:54 pm UTC
Re: Enlighten me, please? - [info]zing_och, 2004-05-16 04:02 pm UTC
Re: Enlighten me, please? - [info]elkins, 2004-05-16 10:35 pm UTC
Re: Enlighten me, please? - [info]kindest_demon, 2004-05-17 05:58 pm UTC
Re: Enlighten me, please? - [info]elkins, 2004-05-18 07:14 am UTC
Re: Enlighten me, please? - [info]kindest_demon, 2004-05-18 05:28 pm UTC

[info]yankthewank
2004-05-16 09:30 am UTC (link)
Authors of actual novels, the paper kind, don't post their addresses all over kingdom come and they still get criticism of all types from the public. If a person posts her work where another person can easily obtain and read it, i.e. online, then she needs to be prepared for the consequences. If she doesn't like it then she needs to stop making her writing accessible to the public. The point of art as far as I could ever tell (and I am not necessarily saying that THIS qualifies as art) is to evoke a reaction. I am generally not in favor of flaming someone but she's practically begging for it.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]elkins, 2004-05-16 11:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bitca, 2004-05-17 10:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-17 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elkins, 2004-05-18 07:21 am UTC

[info]fairy_tale_echo
2004-05-16 10:43 am UTC (link)
I don't ring up Rowling to lecture her on her love affair with the adverb, and I don't expect fanfic readers to lecture me on inconsistencies or flaws in my stories.

But you SHOULD! You should totally ring up JK Rowling and lecture her! Because she uses sooooo many adverbs which is the sign of a very weak and unimaginative writer and you, certainly, could do much better than her. But only if you never got criticized!

Just because I want you as my reader doesn't mean I actually value your opinion about writing

Well then why in the fuck do you want me as your reader? You don't value my opinion about writing so why should you want me reading your work? I am clearly a moron who doesn't know the first thing about writing so why do you want me as your reader?

I guess what really irks me about this isn't the attitude towards feedback but towards con-crit which she uses several times, specifically. It just seems to scream to me: "Get that CON out of there and take your CRIT with you! I like feedback, but only if it says yayayayayay!" that's irritating.

Maybe she has a point and you should write only for yourself but as a participant in many creative writing workshops I just don't understand that, but hey, that's just me. But did she have to be so amazingly wanktastic about it?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-05-16 08:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hermiones_hymen, 2004-05-16 11:42 pm UTC

[info]redjackcash
2004-05-16 11:25 am UTC (link)
Honestly? I think it all comes down to the fact that sometimes, people don't want to hear that the things they put their heart and souls into are shitty. Because, let's face it...most of the time they are.

Which I totally understand. If you're doing it for fun, then fuck it. But then, you wouldn't need people to tell you it was good or bad - just the act of producing it would be enough.

But if you're going to call yourself a "writer", or an "artist", you're insinuating that it's about a craft. More than just about fun, but about talent and expression. People are going to criticize how good you are at said craft, and one would hope you would be trying to improve your craft.

And let's not forget the final point: if you're going to put your work out for mass consumption, and want opinions, asking for only positive opinions and saying "No negative comments, please!", is like asking for someone to manually masturbate you. It's HUGE RED FLAG that you just want someone to stroke your ego, instead of hearing how your work really is. You just want validation from people over the internet - blind acceptance because you share the same fandom. It's asking people to lie to you to and sugar-coat things to make you feel good. Which, when you think about it, is kinda sick. I mean, if you're the kinda person who searches for personal and artistic validation via the internet...

...then you would be Crystal.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 12:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]redjackcash, 2004-05-16 12:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 01:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]redjackcash, 2004-05-16 09:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]singe, 2004-05-17 12:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-17 02:11 am UTC

[info]charmian
2004-05-16 11:44 am UTC (link)
Reaction to sum total of HP threads...

I am never sending feedback. Ever.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]meril, 2004-05-16 12:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - chief, 2004-05-17 02:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snarl, 2004-05-16 08:42 pm UTC

[info]nevadafighter
2004-05-16 12:07 pm UTC (link)
Not touching this one. Just from this post alone it's obvious that "if it's bad don't read"/"you should want your work to be good even if it's only for fun" both have strong arguments and could go back and forth until doomsday.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 12:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2004-05-16 12:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2004-05-16 12:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2004-05-16 12:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 01:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nevadafighter, 2004-05-16 01:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 07:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thebratqueen, 2004-05-16 08:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mirabellawotr, 2004-05-17 12:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-19 05:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-17 12:00 pm UTC
Constructive criticism
[info]prettyveela
2004-05-16 02:09 pm UTC (link)
If a person is being blatantly rude on purpose to a fanfic writer, then I could see the point. But a true artist or writer that doesn't want constructive criticism, does not want to improve their craft in the least.

Interesting enough, I know one BNF who kicks off people who give her any other feedback other than positive.

If any of these people think that J.K. Rowling or Stephen King went through life with pats on the back, they are sadly mistaken.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Constructive criticism - [info]seventy_three, 2004-05-16 05:02 pm UTC
Re: Constructive criticism - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-16 08:22 pm UTC
Re: Constructive criticism - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-17 12:25 am UTC
Re: Constructive criticism - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-17 01:54 am UTC
Re: Constructive criticism - [info]elfy, 2004-05-17 03:41 am UTC
Re: Constructive criticism - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-17 07:34 am UTC
Re: Constructive criticism - [info]elfy, 2004-05-17 04:47 pm UTC
Re: Constructive criticism - [info]msmanna, 2004-05-17 04:02 am UTC
Feedback or not? That is the question
[info]azazello
2004-05-16 02:15 pm UTC (link)
Just a few random subjective opinions...

Don't like 'em, don't read 'em as they say.

For the benefit of the poor reader - whatever you do will be wrong, our "writer" egos are involved and you are on a hiding to nothing.

1. However many reviews a writer gets, they will never be enough, however much you tell yourself that there are plenty of sucky stories with gajillions of squeeage. In the back of your mind is the belief that X gets more reviews because they are - better?

2. However few reviews you convince yourself you get, there is always someone worse off - I whinged among pals earlier this week about my own dearth of reviews, to be told by one pal her (good) story had two reviews. Not gonna say how many I get, but it is a fair bit more. A certain BNF has over 10,000 on one site. So there's always someone worse off, and always someone better off. Deal with it as they say.

3. Flames. A bad review is not a flame, imho. A flame is a blatant personal attack on the writer, their views, their person, or their morals, etc. A review positing that a story contains poor grammar, hamfisted plotting, absurd canon rape, abysmal characterisation, etc. well well be the truth as the reviewer sees it. It is a REVIEW. Not, admittedly a polite review, but still not a flame. Here is a flame: "Burn in hell, m*****f****r!" See the difference? Again, that is merely in my opinion. If a review is hostile, remember that professional authors get reviewed in newspapers where everyone can see. I've read critical reviews that make the bulk of internet flames like kisses off mummy. If such a review pissed you off, you have the facility to reply. Generally, professional authors who are given bad reviews do not.

4. If someone wants to squee at my stuff, they are welcome, ditto sycophancy. Ditto gifts of money, designer clothing, jewellery and real estate. It wont compromise MY artistic integrity.

5. Concrit, and pointing out of errors is okay. It jolts me when I read a misspelt canon name in someone else's stuff, so I appreciate someone pointing out my own ommissions so I can go back and correct them. Ditto if I use a clumsy or cliched phrase. I aim to improve.

6. I appreciate reviews, but would prefer for any reviewer not to use that thread to publicise their own work without seeking my permission and approval first.

7. Spamming ditto.

8. Using my review forum to publicly protest over the predicted outcome of my story, or to publicly resign from the readership because my story looks like having a gloomy ending is irritating. As is calling me a pretentious and egotistical cow when I take the opportunity to point out that the ending of the story is my decision alone, and if I want to kill my characters I can.

Otherwise, I'm always tickled pink that anyone bothers. Even when it is merely "OMG!!!!! UPdAte Soooooooon!" At least they liked it, they bothered. It is a review thread, not a literary salon. If you aren't prepared to get criticism, suggest not uploading or find one of those archives where you cannot review, or if you do it is in the form of a personal email to the author. I think anyone who says they are indifferent to, or does not want reviews is fibbing. Reviews are the fanficcer's wage.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 07:57 pm UTC
Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-16 08:30 pm UTC
Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]misswindy, 2004-05-16 09:11 pm UTC
Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]yankthewank, 2004-05-16 09:17 pm UTC
Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]singe, 2004-05-17 12:25 am UTC
Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]elfy, 2004-05-17 03:33 am UTC
Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]singe, 2004-05-17 05:47 am UTC
Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-05-16 08:09 pm UTC
Wot Feedback? Flames and Lunacy - [info]azazello, 2004-05-17 12:29 pm UTC
Re: Wot Feedback? Flames and Lunacy - [info]ymfaery, 2004-05-17 01:30 pm UTC
Re: Wot Feedback? Flames and Lunacy - [info]azazello, 2004-05-17 03:06 pm UTC
Re: Feedback or not? That is the question - [info]scribbles, 2004-05-17 01:26 am UTC

[info]ladystarlight
2004-05-16 03:31 pm UTC (link)
Meanwhile, some of us would whore ourselves out sell off our firstborn</i> really like some feedback. Gahh.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ladystarlight, 2004-05-16 03:32 pm UTC
of no consequence. - smirnoffmule, 2004-05-16 10:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - allen, 2004-05-17 04:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bitca, 2004-05-17 10:31 pm UTC

[info]sarajayechan
2004-05-16 05:44 pm UTC (link)
On the wanky side, we have fabularasa, who seems to think that no one should provide their opinion of her work, even though she posts it on the internet for the world to see

[snip]

That "logic" is skewed at best. u.u;

[Personally, if I didn't want comments on a story I wrote and/or didn't care what people think about my work, I wouldn't post it on the fucking internet; but I guess that's just me.]

Ditto. I come up with some wacky things and write em, but I'd never post em to ff.net or anywhere else they might not be 100% appreciated. ;P At most, I might stick up up on my website since that doesn't get a lot of hits.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 08:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-05-16 08:19 pm UTC
D'oh! - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 08:22 pm UTC
Re: D'oh! - [info]sarajayechan, 2004-05-16 08:28 pm UTC
why am I mixing reason with wank? me = dumb
[info]dorian
2004-05-16 06:42 pm UTC (link)
It seems silly, to me, to get worked up over getting feedback when you don't want it; I mean, as a pr0n addict fanfic reader, I assume people want feedback, even if they don't explicitly say GIVE ME FEEDBACK RAR~!! I don't think that's a ridiculous assumption, since they're putting this stuff out on the internet and it's sort of the nature of internet-posted fanfic to be open to feedback. Or at least that's how I percieve it.

If you get feedback/"con-crit"/whatever you want to call it, you can just ignore it. Delete the email once you've figured out what it is. Ignore the comment on your LJ. Whatever. If you're polite, you can even throw in a "thanks, I'll take that into consideration," but you don't really have to.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: why am I mixing reason with wank? me = dumb - [info]seventy_three, 2004-05-16 06:56 pm UTC
Two Cents - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 07:15 pm UTC
Re: Two Cents - [info]dorian, 2004-05-16 11:26 pm UTC
Re: Two Cents - [info]singe, 2004-05-17 12:29 am UTC
Re: Two Cents - [info]dorian, 2004-05-17 12:47 am UTC
Re: Two Cents - [info]singe, 2004-05-17 01:08 am UTC
Re: Two Cents - [info]dorian, 2004-05-17 01:20 am UTC
Re: Two Cents - [info]singe, 2004-05-17 04:20 am UTC
See, I don't *want* the pretentious fanfic writers to go away...
[info]limyaael
2004-05-16 07:12 pm UTC (link)
...because they make me laugh harder than anything. I swear, these are my favorite wanks here, when some fanfic author starts thinking she can dictate readers' reactions/is above criticism/knows the characters better than the canon creator. I roll among them and giggle hysterically.

Not to say that people can't take fanfic seriously, because they can. But anybody who, rather than having a healthy respect for themselves and their work, reverences it, is fucking awed by it, gains my undivided attention at least until the next wank comes along.

Bless you, fabularasa! You have reassured me that this breed of authorial arrogance has yet to die.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: See, I don't *want* the pretentious fanfic writers to go away... - [info]hermiones_hymen, 2004-05-16 11:55 pm UTC

[info]idlerat
2004-05-16 07:17 pm UTC (link)
Then again, I think idlerat may need to find herself a hobby: "And then of course there's you [fabularasa], where I've read hundreds of pages of your fic, made copious marginal notes, and never sent more than a generalized expression of fannishness in a comment to a random LJ post."

This cracked me up. Though in the interests of full disclosure maybe I should mention that this isn't entirely a hobby; I'm writing scholarly stuff on HP fanfic. Which doesn't mean that my level of useless note-taking isn't insane, and my dramatizing in that exchange wanktastic.

The last thing I wanted was to get FR fandom-wanked though. Really.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eiviiaru, 2004-05-16 08:29 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-05-16 07:23 pm UTC (link)
Sorry for the anon--I'm not a troll, and follow this community when I have time (which, let's face it, is usually), though I write in a different fandom. It doesn't get nearly as much entertaining drama, so I come here to be amused. And we get exactly the same thing. People calling any mild criticism a flame. In the immortal words of a Livejournal anon responding to some super-wank over on Pottersues (ah, Not-Bob);

'When I want to be all alone
One thing that works for me
Is not to post on the Internet
For everyone to see'

It absolutely baffles me that people post on fanfiction.net, basically demanding some sort of review, but will call anything that isn't lavish praise a flame. I think that fandom writers (and I include myself in that) are spoiled, because we don't really have to deal with a lot of the rejection that happens with people trying to get their work published in print. I know I've heard many many stories about published authors being rejected over and over, having editors run them up one side and down the other, and so forth. So they get tougher skin or leave writing. But in fanfic, you can post mediocre, or even bad stories and get raves immediately.

Is there anywhere other than fandom where someone could use 'I put my heart and soul into it!' as a defense against critical reviews and not get laughed at? I consider myself a fairly sensitive person, but it just never occurred to me to get *that* upset about a critical review. When I was in high school I took a writing course, and the instructor would go through the stories, giving detailed remarks on what was good and what wasn't. We also read our stories out loud and gave each other comments--one of the things that the instructor made us do was list at least one thing we liked, and one thing that could maybe be improved. I remember a few defenses 'well, I did it this way because of this', but no outright weeping fits. And we were all around 15. So I guess this exquisite sensitivity is a bit beyond me at times.

Y'know, if I were a writer who really really loved writing, but couldn't handle any criticism whatsoever, only wanted positive remarks--I'd send the story to my close friends, not post it somewhere and then invite them to comment on it.

If reviewing is really the equivalent of a thank-you note, then having any sort of form or request for a review would be like me sticking a self-addressed envelope on your Christmas gift with a request for you to send me a thank-you letter telling me what you liked about it.

Linn

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]llama_treats, 2004-05-16 08:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-05-16 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]diamonde, 2004-05-17 07:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]azazello, 2004-05-16 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]blue_linnet, 2004-05-17 08:21 am UTC
The Posse
[info]criticalcricket
2004-05-16 07:57 pm UTC (link)
It occurred to a while ago that much of fabularasa’s argument against getting criticism or feedback other than good stuff is that her friends will take care of that silly beta stuff. If they don‘t, then obviously it‘s not important enough for her to waste time one. It’s all well and good to have a cute little posse who has your back, but aren’t posses just people you pay to walk around with you to show off how important you are?

It’s one thing to honor and accept comments and opinions by your friends, but what difference does that make if you’ve surrounded yourself with friends that will only cater to your ego? It’s obvious that this person doesn’t seem to care much about the opinions of others. It would stand to reason that she’s surrounded herself with people that think she’s “teh gratest evah!”. So if a friend is someone who isn’t afraid to tell you that your fly is unzipped, wouldn’t all those with arrogant assholes helpful strangers be better friends than a flock of brown-nosing suck-ups? My friends are pasted on! Yay!

Nobody wants to hear that they suck but at least open your eyes to things that could use a little improvement. Heaven forbid that you take steps to improve yourself or your writing, because obviously anybody who doesn’t provide ass-kissing comments is no more than an insect under your shoe. Wait…I am an insect. Oh well. *chirp chirp*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: The Posse - [info]sahz, 2004-05-17 04:35 pm UTC

[info]darkwitch666
2004-05-16 08:00 pm UTC (link)
Ahhh. Review wank.

:lights a smoke, settles back, and enjoys:

There once was a fan from some fandom
Who reviewed a fic completely at random
The next day to find
That (s)he had been maligned
In a flame as long as a memorandum

So what's a reviewer to do
When wanting to leave a review?
Read it and get out,
Or "That's great!" to shout
While running from those who pursue?

I guess what I'm trying to say
Is it doesn't have to be this way
If it's posted online
Reviewing is fine--
Just remember the asbestos, okay?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]criticalcricket, 2004-05-16 08:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cleolinda, 2004-05-16 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]madelfdisease, 2004-05-16 09:17 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-05-16 09:06 pm UTC (link)
Oh, *this* one. Every wizard is a bisexual, big Snape/Black + H/Hr shipper, Remus and Ron get thrown out with the bathwater. Hermionesue. I remember.

(Reply to this)


[info]necronomist
2004-05-16 09:24 pm UTC (link)
Dear fabularasa,

Please keep writing and sniping at anyone daring to say they didn't like something about your story.

I may read it, decide I can do better and improve when someone points out errors. I get inspired by wank.



(Reply to this)



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